the truth about electric cars

[Graham Butcher]

40 minutes ago, xman said:

 

As I see it, it is a somewhat nonsense and loaded argument.

 

To get 600 miles will require ~170kwh maybe more with charging losses. Presumably "home rates" means overnight special EV rates of around 7.5p/kwh such as Octopus etc.

Those tarrifs are time limited, iirc around 4 hours per 24hrs in the early hours.

 

The max you can charge at home is 7kw (if you've installed a ~£900 or so charge point) so the best you can get over one night is 28kwh (ignoring charging losses) which might give you around 100 miles  real world range on average.

 

In the meantime the electricity company will be scraping back via a premium rate on the rest of the days electric useage.

 

Even less sense if you haven't shelled out for the 7kw point and rely on the granny charger.

 

Of course there will be some that will say you can get 22kw with a 3 phase supply. Good luck with getting that installed at a reasonable price. Not sure the electricity companies will give the same tarrifs on a 3 phase supply, maybe its triple the standing charge too.

 

Standby for the "but I only do 100 miles per week" comments, fair enough, then maybe you think the economics works for you.

 

Why quote 600 mile, no EV has that real qorld range.

 

I just assumed that the author was not thinking of a full battery range, but a weekly mileage for a daily commute of around 40 -50 miles each way which make sense.

[Ootohere]

@Graham Butcher Small point.  He knows that the Osprey Charger down the road is a 50 kW. Pretending to find out is a pretence.

If Porsche Charging has increased from 35 pence to 53 pence then fine,.  If you are someone claiming back 20% then lovely.

If you get 45 kWh in 30 minutes  & then 38 kWh in 19 is what you get. 

Not max speed of charging.

One a 150 kW charger and one a 350 kW. (Up to that is!)

 

The not charging to 80% is if you do not need the slowing down that some get, 80-90 or 90-98%.

What crap about not going below 20%.  Big battery, go below 10% if you know it gets you to a charger.  Lower battery, get more in while cheap and get the faster charging speed.

It is stuff we know but keeping repeating for affect in a vid is the game here.

 

Loraine Kelly supposedly is playing a character and she pays her taxes and has won against the HMRC that Loraine Kelly' is a Freelancer who "presents a persona" for taxation purposes and should not be taxed as an employee of STV.  A theatrical artist.    There are a few of those around. A brand not a person. 

 

There seems to be much that HMRC might have to work out with Youtubers who seemingly make little per thousand viewers in the UK and are better off traveling distances away from the UK.  The thing is you pay on profits after expenses... 

 

 

 

Latest. 

 

 

Edited 8 April by Rooted

[Ootohere]

All weekend now sitting there and still no recovery .  Only now are CPS showing the charger as unavailable ..

Edited 8 April by Rooted

[xman]

50 minutes ago, Rooted said:

All weekend now sitting there and still no recovery .  Only now are CPS showing the charger as unavailable ..

 

[Ootohere]

Well it is for those wanting a charge before getting to the Ferry at Cairnryan or anyone actually traveling and needing more than the 2 11kW chargers in town or the 8 7kW.   If they have passed the one at Turnberry which is unreliable or one at a farm shop there is one more heading to Stranraer.  Plenty there.  This is a trunk routes. A77.  Pathetic coverage and now a minimum £5 to charge.  If you want 10 kWh in to see you on your way that will be an hour or more to get in maybe 30 miles worth.  Assuming others are not plugged in for up to 6 hours.      There are several wind farms within sight, and others a few miles further away.  No electricity shortage just a lack of Battery storage and rapid and ultra rapid chargers. 

Edited 8 April by Rooted

[wyx087]

10 hours ago, xman said:

 

As I see it, it is a somewhat nonsense and loaded argument.

 

To get 600 miles will require ~170kwh maybe more with charging losses. Presumably "home rates" means overnight special EV rates of around 7.5p/kwh such as Octopus etc.

Those tarrifs are time limited, iirc around 4 hours per 24hrs in the early hours.

 

The max you can charge at home is 7kw (if you've installed a ~£900 or so charge point) so the best you can get over one night is 28kwh (ignoring charging losses) which might give you around 100 miles  real world range on average.

 

In the meantime the electricity company will be scraping back via a premium rate on the rest of the days electric useage.

 

Even less sense if you haven't shelled out for the 7kw point and rely on the granny charger.

 

Of course there will be some that will say you can get 22kw with a 3 phase supply. Good luck with getting that installed at a reasonable price. Not sure the electricity companies will give the same tarrifs on a 3 phase supply, maybe its triple the standing charge too.

 

Standby for the "but I only do 100 miles per week" comments, fair enough, then maybe you think the economics works for you.

 

Why quote 600 mile, no EV has that real qorld range.

 

It is unlikely people will drive 250+ miles 2 days in a roll. So 7.5p/kWh for 6 hours is typically more than enough. It would charge just over 50% for a ~78 kWh car (GV60 or MYLR). That translates to around 130 miles. Gotta stop thinking with empty-to-full mentality.

 

It is possible to "smart" charge fully overnight by utilising extra cheap slots offered by Octopus intelligent: https://octopus.energy/smart/intelligent-octopus-go/

 

Regarding day time premium, just get a way to time-shift to cheap energy.

1 month figures:

 

Before you say home storage it's expensive, my V2H + brand new home charger (I sold my old Podpoint that was installed in 2017) costed me £2200. 10p/mile saving + 20p/kWh home use saving means less than 1 year ROI.

 

3 phase is not needed. I'm charging 2 EV's at combined 14 kW, ~60 amps. I try to move washing machine and dishwasher away from Leaf's brief 2hr charging, but even with those it would not exceed the 100 amp incoming.

 

I guess the reason 600 miles was quoted because it lines up with 50% public charging cost estimate for a 600 miles trip. 300 miles from home, 300 miles public charging.

[Graham Butcher]

@Rooted How do you know that Lee Davey knows the Osprey charger just down the road is a 50kW (I assume you are talking about the one in Leeds)? Perhaps, because his car can make use of the really high speed chargers, that likes to use those that whenever he can, without having to go miles of the most direct and fastest route. If you had a ICE car would you be prepared to go miles off your route to fill up at a cheaper station? I, for one, certainly would not do that as anything saved in cost is lost in wear and tear and time, how much do you value your time at?

 

One thing life has taught me is that unless you can 100% prove that someone is not telling the truth at that specific time, then give them the benefit of the doubt. I know that I won't lose any sleep over it either way as I know that it is unlikely to affect me, and if it does later in life, the situation should have improved leaps and bounds by then. 

 

I did find the last video you liked to interesting, though, and the points he raised in that about freedom of speech and geofencing etc are cause for concern. If we just continue to be laid back and not start to questioning things a bit more, just what could we be committing future generations to?

 

 

[wyx087]

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

One thing life has taught me is that unless you can 100% prove that someone is not telling the truth at that specific time, then give them the benefit of the doubt. I know that I won't lose any sleep over it either way as I know that it is unlikely to affect me, and if it does later in life, the situation should have improved leaps and bounds by then. 

Indeed.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

Quote

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

 

[Ootohere]

@Graham Butcher  Simples really.  I watch the video,s and listen and remember.

The amount of times he needs charging before heading off is numerous.    The miles off route is a PITA. But really this does not apply with the big car, the big battery.

It is the planning to arrive at places with poor charging for the sake of the agenda in many instances. 

 

I wonder how many views he will get of trips in a 911 just filling up at filling stations and driving till the next fill up!

 

Do 40,000 miles in a car in 2 years and really it is not much of your brain cells used to remember to unlock the car to get the charger head out.

The struggling a bit to pull it out is really taking the p1th for the audience. 

 

PS

I have all the time in the world and can come on the forum while charging, as working people are often doing while repping around the country in EV,s.

Not forums, calls, appointments, paper / screen work, and maybe eating.

As to the eating and drinking in places with ridiculous prices at every charge stop, that might be for people that like that sort of thing.

Is The MacMaster ever actually in a hurry during the driving the EV & filming to make videos which is part of his freelance work.  Income. 

Edited 8 April by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

14 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

It is possible to "smart" charge fully overnight by utilising extra cheap slots offered by Octopus intelligent: https://octopus.energy/smart/intelligent-octopus-go/

 

Before you say home storage it's expensive, my V2H + brand new home charger (I sold my old Podpoint that was installed in 2017) costed me £2200. 10p/mile saving + 20p/kWh home use saving means less than 1 year ROI.

 

It is equally possible that these cheap slots might not be made available, and again equally possible that at some point in the future, even basic cheap rate slots could be withdrawn as the authorities would need to balance their books as the sales of fossil fuels slow down as more EV ownership is taken up. They will need to replace the revenue raised from fossil fuels with some sort of taxation on the electricity used with EV cars.

 

I have long thought that the entire debate over untaxed and uninsured vehicles could be solved at a stroke with the current fossil based vehicles, they all need fuel, so stick a levy on each litre of fuel purchased. Those that use the roads more, would be paying more. It would also encourage those with the biggest gas guzzlers to look more efficient vehicles, which would have benefited everybody. Those with more than one vehicle would also benefit, so if you had a convertible car that was only used in the summer, that would be automatically taxed and insured each time the weather permitted you to use it.

[Ootohere]

Stick ANPR,s or Bar code readers at fuel stations and town boundries and geofence vehicles.  Shut them down remotely. 

As the tech in cars will allow within a few short years.   As it is just limit fuel to those driving illegal vehicles.

Yes i know they can buy fuel in cans, or any old place, Fill up a vehicle and transfer.

 

Like those not getting to open a boot or bonnet to put the fuel filler from the pump in.   The Geoff Buy,s car issue. 

 

Re Expensive fuel.

That has no affect on those with money that care not a jot.

 

As with Minimum Pricing on Alcohol in Scotland.  It has never stopped an alcoholic that wants to drink. 

It has stopped me buying alcohol. 

Edited 8 April by Rooted

[wyx087]

5 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

It is equally possible that these cheap slots might not be made available, and again equally possible that at some point in the future, even basic cheap rate slots could be withdrawn as the authorities would need to balance their books as the sales of fossil fuels slow down as more EV ownership is taken up. They will need to replace the revenue raised from fossil fuels with some sort of taxation on the electricity used with EV cars.

The extra cheap slots had been very reliably made available for me so far. I agree in the future more emphasis may be placed on making sure there is sufficient renewable excess. So it may require longer time plugged in (eg, instead of 8pm to 9am all cheap, may require 7pm to 10am with gaps in the middle as wind drops) This is why the longer you keep it plugged in, the more flexibility it offers to the suppliers, so I have been advocating idea of simply plugging in whenever possible (eg. parked at home). 

 

With more and more unpredictable renewables on the grid, I cannot see any reason why cheap rate slots being withdrawn. Even if taxation gets introduced, it would still be hugely beneficial for everyone to utilise the excess generation. 

 

The way I can see taxation works is in tiers according to how much load is put on the grid and how flexible you are: V2G don't get taxed, smart charging gets taxed a low amount, dumb charging gets taxed a moderate amount, finally charging during high demand period (4-7pm) and rapid charging gets taxed a high amount. 

[Graham Butcher]

@RootedI'm still not convinced, yes no doubt there is an element of playing to the gallery and the EV haters in parts of his videos, as you say about the stretching of the lead to make it reach etc but one thing I'm clear about in my mind is that the Taycan was purchased as a natural progression from the previous Porsches he has owned as it was at the time the only electric car they made, I can believe that he chose to go with the Taycan following all the guff that has been sprouted about 2030 and the national charging network massive growth plans. I can also believe that he is disillusioned by the reality and that these videos are not the reason for the purchase of the car, but are born out of his personal experiences, and he has discovered a way to actually make some money out of that. 

His main videos are about being a food critic and travel and as a regular viewer of his videos you will be aware that many of the EV videos are actually shot as part of his journey to various restaurants to shoot a food video, so I don't dismiss everything as being BS, there is some factual content as well.

[Ootohere]

I know what his main videos are since i have watched them and know when he started the EV videos and when he got a EV.

I was not late to the party and playing catch up. 

 

Actually i watched to see if i could learn anything, but i had already experienced EV charging and travelling so was aware of the guff and bluff. 

 

I drove LPG vehicles and had when in the South to be doing planning before travelling and be sure where i could fill up, or plan going off route to fill up.

Then i got bigger tanks which you filled only to 80%.  But then i could travel into England and back often without ever needing to fill up. 

[Graham Butcher]

20 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Stick ANPR,s or Bar code readers at fuel stations and town boundries and geofence vehicles.  Shut them down remotely. 

As the tech in cars will allow within a few short years.   As it is just limit fuel to those driving illegal vehicles.

Yes i know they can buy fuel in cans, or any old place, Fill up a vehicle and transfer.

 

Like those not getting to open a boot or bonnet to put the fuel filler from the pump in.   The Geoff Buy,s car issue. 

 

Re Expensive fuel.

That has no affect on those with money that care not a jot.

 

As with Minimum Pricing on Alcohol in Scotland.  It has never stopped an alcoholic that wants to drink. 

It has stopped me buying alcohol. 

I was thinking more about the past than the future. I had the misfortune of being shunted from the back in a multiple pile up in Grays, at some traffic lights. I had stopped at a red traffic light and off duty policemen smashed into my boot (Ford Cortina I had at the time). The policemen also had been hit in his boot and shunted forwards into me. The car that hit him was uninsured, and the driver legged it over a garage wall and was away. The car subsequently was also discovered to have been stolen as well.

 

My car was a company car so all was well in that dept and I get another new car as a result. But the point I was making was that if there was a levy on the fuel to cover VED and also insurance then no matter what happened, there would be no argument about getting everything sorted out. All of these untaxed cars that being used would be done away as any car that was being used must be using fuel and so tax collected, regardless of if it was brought in cans or transferred from vehicle to another vehicle, does not matter and does not need ANPR's, bar code readers etc.Maybe we might have less potholes on the road today if such a system had been implemented years ago.

 

With regard to people with money, I agree that would not make much difference to them but maybe it would prevent those with less pockets acquiring those thirsty cars on the 2nd hand market later?

 

Alcohol, totally agree with you on that front, I purchased 6 bottles of beer at Christmas as my oldest son likes a drink and was supposed to be coming to us for Christmas, but he caught Covid so never happened. I have had 1 of those bottles and there is a good chance that some will still there next Christmas 👍.

[Graham Butcher]

I never really came across him before he got an EV but have watched a few of his old videos and I do find that his style of presenting is rather entertaining but at the same time I'm aware that these are his own views that he is expressing, so I never attach too much importance to them. It's rather like reading people's reviews on various products on Amazon etc, you have to take a lot of them with a large pinch of salt as some people read manuals first, others toss them away and blunder their way through and then write poor reviews as a result.

 

With LPG back in the day you did really have to plan a trip well if you strayed away from your local area. TBH I always thought that the biggest users of LPG were farmers.

[Ootohere]

^^^ Indeed, Farmers, Grain Dryers etc.  Then Military Vehicle Enthusiast running LPG.  Filling up on farms because no markers in LPG, like running red diesel.

 

Like 35 pence a liter from a friendly farmer, where ASDA was 50 pence a liter. With ASDA and a ASDA credit card you got 2 pence a liter off and since you might be buying twice as many liter of LPG compared to Petrol running a V8 that was good if you had one that run well on LPG.

 

Then if it was your Tow Barge for Gain or Reward no need to have a Tachograph.   You could not run other fuels, like starting on petrol though.

V6 Pickup,s imported from NZ that ran on LPG were popular in Scotland.

Dundee Council gave good grants to Taxi Drivers to have LPG conversions. 

 

Down south it was mostly Morrisons i bought LPG at. 

There were some places around the country worth calling into for Much Cheapness.  A big station on the outskirts of Kilmarnock was very cheap for Scotland. 

 

 

[wyx087]

11 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I never really came across him before he got an EV

Hopefully it's clear why controversial EV contents are being made by the dozens, a lot of the time by non-EV or even non-car channels. 

 

End of the day, it's all about the attention economy. Feed the algorithm, feed the entrenched ideals. 

[Ootohere]

The charger head removed and car could be driven.  But the driver and keys have gone to the north of England.  2 break down and  recovery companies had already attended and were unable to remove the car.   EDIT.  Still there Tuesday morning.  Torrential rain.  

Edited 9 April by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

58 minutes ago, Rooted said:

The charger head removed and car could be driven.  But the driver and keys have gone to the north of England.  2 break down and  recovery companies had already attended and were unable to remove the car.   

Oh dear thats less than ideal then, is that a high speed charger, if so then it is extremely bad news as they are in very short supply judging by the Zapmap, which seems to indicate that the vast majority of chargers are 50kW or less.

[Ootohere]

Beside the M77 then A77 after leaving Glasgow.

Kilmarnock Athletic Stadium hub off route for 1/2 a mile.  Busiest or near busiest according to CPS. Not many chargers.

At the end on M77 a BP Pulse at Prestwick junction.

1 at Turnberry junction.

1 at Dowhill Farm.

1 at Girvan and CPS call handler says they were unaware it of service. Well someone is not reading the reports sent in.

1 at Balantrae. 

Then after Cairnryan you have choices in Stranraer.

 

There are several charging hubs around Kilmarnock as a lot of Council, NHS / Carers and other EV,s.

Not that near the A77, and you might have to queue. 

Spacing is hopeless to get car in and doors open and get to chargers etc.  cable to charge port,

many Disabled / infirm are pretty well stuffed as able bodied often struggle.   Now that there are tariffs maybe less will dump cars for hours there.

That includes PHEV,s left filling bays. 

Edited 8 April by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

This is interesting for 1 or 2 people but I doubt it would make much of an in road over here, what are your thoughts?

 

 

[Graham Butcher]

Matt Watson has just purchased a 2nd hand Leaf, seems to be a pretty good bargain for the shopping run / school run if local. It does seem to have a few niggles though, what do you Leaf owners think about this, typical or what?

 

 

[wyx087]

The dancing guess-o-meter is expected. It's completely worthless because it works out car's range from previous few miles of driving. 2013 or earlier Leaf doesn't have the battery % reading. Late 2013 or newer will have much more reliable battery % reading. Always use a metric that directly reports battery energy remaining, same as the fuel gauge.

 

60 miles to completely empty is pretty good going for 9 health bar Leaf. The video skipped the an important explanation. Nissan cheated, 1st bar is lost at 85%, not 11/12 = 91%. Subsequent bars are lost at ~6.5%. Hence at 9 bars SoH is at 70%.

 

I'd trust my car to go ~50 miles with comfort buffer built in. My 9.5 years old is at 11 health bars, soon to loose 11th. Although it's been at 79% for the last year. As mentioned, 30 battery seems to degrade faster, many 6 years old cars are also at 80% SoH. The slowest degrading battery for first-gen Leaf seems to be the one I have, the 24 pack after 2013.

[Lady Elanore]

My PHEV went in for a routine service and a software update to do with the battery and general energy use. Because of a DVLA web crash today, I couldn't get my driving licence code for a loan car, so the dealer dropped me off at home instead.

 

 

 

 

It crashed (electronically) during the update and now the car won't start, apparently. The Dealer sounds a little worried and the car is staying with them overnight. Great! 

 

 

 

 

 

Luckily, I have a dinosnore ICE car that will get me about. Almost all my colleagues and friends who have EVs and PHEVs seem to have had a similar problem with their cars having an overnight stay in relation to software updates. The most recent of which was a friend with a Porsche Taycan  (although he got a Panamera for a loan car).