the truth about electric cars

[J.R.]

I was a regular at Shoreham Lighthouse car auctions 48 years ago!

 

Last visit was probably in the 90's, there is not even a lighthouse anymore but the auctions are still going I'm pleased to see.

[Ootohere]

 

3 different vehicles managed to get on the chargers in the time that he had a pee and got his Greggs quicker at the BP filling station.

Why should the Tesla not charge where they are visiting & why does he not charge more often cheaply at Porsche Dealership charging or at the Ionity ones he often just does not bother going to?

'

'Got to bring my car closer.'   Genius,. there are stoppers for the front or rear wheels for which ever way you drive your car into the Charging Bay towards the Charger. 

 

Edited 5 April by Rooted

[@Lee]

On 16/03/2024 at 15:20, Graham Butcher said:

It seems as if Euro NCAP have now woken up to the dangers posed by the trend towards touch controls on a central screen, and VW looks to be the first to react and promises to replace more touch controls with actual switches, stalks whatever.

 

Euro NCAP encourages car manufacturers to replace touchscreens with physical buttons | Regit

 

Tweet I saw today by an 'Author, Blogger, Influencer, YouTuber, Engineer etc etc;

5 Star EuroNACP Valuation Requires Physical Buttons EuroNCAP announced that from 2026, real physical buttons and switches will be mandatory for certain functions in the car in order to receive the highest rating. The alliance of various European transport ministries, automobile clubs and insurance associations based in Brussels has rolled out its new agenda. "This decision marks a significant shift in the automotive industry and highlights the importance of traditional controls, which have been increasingly displaced by digital touchscreens and voice-activated systems in recent years." The safety specialists are targeting developments at Tesla and the VW Group. At least for the five most important functions, real switches, levers or buttons will be required from 2026 in order for cars to receive the five-star safety rating from Euro NCAP. From 2026, suitable switches must therefore remain in the car for the turn signal, hazard warning lights, windscreen wipers, horn and SOS emergency call functions if the full 5-star result is to be achieved. Vehicle manufacturers will also be encouraged to use separate physical controls for other basic functions such as seat and mirror adjustment or ventilation. OMG to argue that physical buttons are safer than using a display or voice commands shows that its not about safety at all but that lobby groups have suceeded and thats sad. Its all about revenue, influence and profits but not about safety. Starting in 2026 we best ignore EuroNCAP if we talk vehicle safety and I hope Tesla won't change is strategy to build the safest vehicles in the world without physical buttons! The Bomer [sic] generation strikes back. 
https://twitter.com/alex_avoigt/status/1775875232932192269



Sorry but who wants to go through multile menus just to turn the heat up a little at 70mph?

 

[wyx087]

Real world experience of public charging on the bank holiday: 

https://www.speakev.com/threads/bank-holiday-charging-chaos-not-really.184100/

 

In short, only Rugby service had a queue, but no queue nearby after a very simple quick look on the map. 

Zero queue just turn up and charge for everywhere else from Aberdeen to Hampshire and back. 

 

One can always find queues if one goes to busiest locations for "contents". 

 

 

1 hour ago, @Lee said:

Sorry but who wants to go through multile menus just to turn the heat up a little at 70mph?

Climate control isn't one of the required physical control...... 

[Graham Butcher]

3 hours ago, Rooted said:

3 different vehicles managed to get on the chargers in the time that he had a pee and got his Greggs quicker at the BP filling station.

Why should the Tesla not charge where they are visiting & why does he not charge more often cheaply at Porsche Dealership charging or at the Ionity ones he often just does not bother going to?

'

'Got to bring my car closer.'   Genius,. there are stoppers for the front or rear wheels for which ever way you drive your car into the Charging Bay towards the Charger. 

 

Haha, have you got 2 pens in your top pocket, as he said EV evangelists do, or was that just Tesla owners 🤣?

 

There were loads of good points raised in the video and, no, I'm not going to raise them and start off a mini WW3 about should have done better planning etc.

 

Like most of his videos he does rather labour points too much and repeating himself, I do enjoy some his videos if I'm in the mood, they can be quite entertaining.

 

One point he did make was that using the Zap map chargers in Skegness are very thin on the ground, if they have been keeping their information upto to date that is as this link does certainly prove. Electric vehicle (EV) charging points in Skegness - Zapmap (zap-map.com)

 

Anyone calling him and other liars would do well to remember that when they are pointing fingers at anyone, they have 3 fingers point back at themselves, just saying . They really need to be there with them at the same time and armed with the same information as they have at the time to justify their claims.

[@Lee]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Real world experience of public charging on the bank holiday: 

https://www.speakev.com/threads/bank-holiday-charging-chaos-not-really.184100/

 

In short, only Rugby service had a queue, but no queue nearby after a very simple quick look on the map. 

Zero queue just turn up and charge for everywhere else from Aberdeen to Hampshire and back. 

 

One can always find queues if one goes to busiest locations for "contents". 

 

 

Climate control isn't one of the required physical control...... 

 

Yep. That's what I'm saying - it's a basic function so should be IMO. It's in no way safe to flick through options at motorway speeds.

[Graham Butcher]

3 hours ago, @Lee said:

 

Tweet I saw today by an 'Author, Blogger, Influencer, YouTuber, Engineer etc etc;

5 Star EuroNACP Valuation Requires Physical Buttons EuroNCAP announced that from 2026, real physical buttons and switches will be mandatory for certain functions in the car in order to receive the highest rating. The alliance of various European transport ministries, automobile clubs and insurance associations based in Brussels has rolled out its new agenda. "This decision marks a significant shift in the automotive industry and highlights the importance of traditional controls, which have been increasingly displaced by digital touchscreens and voice-activated systems in recent years." The safety specialists are targeting developments at Tesla and the VW Group. At least for the five most important functions, real switches, levers or buttons will be required from 2026 in order for cars to receive the five-star safety rating from Euro NCAP. From 2026, suitable switches must therefore remain in the car for the turn signal, hazard warning lights, windscreen wipers, horn and SOS emergency call functions if the full 5-star result is to be achieved. Vehicle manufacturers will also be encouraged to use separate physical controls for other basic functions such as seat and mirror adjustment or ventilation. OMG to argue that physical buttons are safer than using a display or voice commands shows that its not about safety at all but that lobby groups have suceeded and thats sad. Its all about revenue, influence and profits but not about safety. Starting in 2026 we best ignore EuroNCAP if we talk vehicle safety and I hope Tesla won't change is strategy to build the safest vehicles in the world without physical buttons! The Bomer [sic] generation strikes back. 
https://twitter.com/alex_avoigt/status/1775875232932192269



Sorry but who wants to go through multile menus just to turn the heat up a little at 70mph?

 

If it is wrong and against the law to hold or use a mobile phone while driving, then so it should the same with touch screens built in to the car as the means of interacting and controlling car functions that might need to be operated while driving..

[Ootohere]

@Graham Butcher  I have various Ray-ban Wayfarer framed sunglasses, but not as my reading glasses. They are in a sleeve with a pen.

Mobile in the pocket for ZapMap or Plug Share. Both unreliable.

[Ootohere]

Ps. Just looked at Plug Share for Skegness and the pathetic Rapid chargers.   Just as I would have if going to Skegness.  Took 1 minute.     But then not having the range or battery size of a Taycan I need less than an 2 hours on a 11kW AC charger.  Unless on empty. Why I chose the vehicle that suits me.  Less than an hour on a Rapid, and as we know with Max charging, it is the average charge speed that matters and pull in with the big battery car only half empty and you will not be getting the best speed possibly. 

Edited 5 April by Rooted

[cheezemonkhai]

On 03/04/2024 at 23:19, Graham Butcher said:

Well to a large extent I suppose it makes a lot of difference depending on which EV car you have for the trip and if you actually needed to have a stop or not. In my car, depending on what the trip is, I can on the right kind of trip do well over 600 miles to a tank. What car did you go for in the end?

 

One thing I can't get my head around is how do you reckon the EV might have been quicker because you planned a stop? If the stop was to get a charge, that was for 20 minutes, it doesn't take that long for refill of diesel.  Also the destination charger helped to extend the range, although you said you didn't need it, it was insurance in your back pocket incase of any delays on the return trip that might have prevented you reaching the planned stop for a charge?

The car I chose has 800V battery so can charge at 230kW+ on the right DC chargers. 5-80% is 18 minutes, which is 200-275 miles.

 

In the diesel I didn’t fill up with fuel, but I would take a loo break/food break of 20 minutes.  Hence much of a muchness.

 

What I will say is that the NVH from an ICE car meant I would typically want to take a second quick stop to stretch out which meant the journey might be longer.

[Graham Butcher]

24 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

The car I chose has 800V battery so can charge at 230kW+ on the right DC chargers. 5-80% is 18 minutes, which is 200-275 miles.

 

In the diesel I didn’t fill up with fuel, but I would take a loo break/food break of 20 minutes.  Hence much of a muchness.

 

What I will say is that the NVH from an ICE car meant I would typically want to take a second quick stop to stretch out which meant the journey might be longer.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from under those conditions, but... with a decent diesel you shouldn't get any NVH so that makes the 2 cars comparable and if you start with a full tank, then you can effectively double or more the range  I have before driven from Chelmsford to Ulverston (310 miles) without any breaks before in 4hrs 20 mins. and had enough fuel in the tank for the return journey without any need for refuelling.

 

That said of course, the sane thing to do would be to take a break on each leg so with the right EV, the trips would be similar time wise, providing of course that you can find a free working charger on your route without having to deviate to find one. Those sort of EV's generally are far more expensive than their ICE counterparts, but it is doable if you have the right car and charging infrastructure, the latter will of course improve over time. 

[cheezemonkhai]

7 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

If it is wrong and against the law to hold or use a mobile phone while driving, then so it should the same with touch screens built in to the car as the means of interacting and controlling car functions that might need to be operated while driving..

It is in Germany, a driver was found guilty, appealed they were adjusting wiper speed, lost and still guilty.

 

The diesels in question were mk2 and mk3 octy with additional soundproofing added in boot and rear seat areas. The NVH isn’t bad, but all I am saying is I would want to take a second break, but don’t feel the need in the EV.

 

Most weeks I do 250 mile round trips. The infrastructure does need to improve, but pick the right car and you’re fine.

 

600 miles at home rates is less than £13.

 

600 miles 50% at home rest at full is  £60

 

600 miles at 11MPL (50mpg) @1.50 is £81

 

600 miles at 14MPL (63mpg) @1.50 is £65

Swings and roundabouts there too, but I will say I have heating and radio on and don’t try to save energy and more than I would in a diesel.

 

Edited 5 April by cheezemonkhai

[Graham Butcher]

1 minute ago, cheezemonkhai said:

It is in Germany, a driver was found guilty, appealed they were adjusting wiper speed, lost and still guilty.

Then that kind of folly is going hamper the adoption of EV's if the driver cannot safely control the basic functions without having to look at what they are doing. I can see why carmakers want to integrate everything through the screen, its quicker to install, uses less cables and thus is cheaper for them but a real ball ache for the owner if anything fails as the screens are bleeding expensive. 

[cheezemonkhai]

11 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Then that kind of folly is going hamper the adoption of EV's if the driver cannot safely control the basic functions without having to look at what they are doing. I can see why carmakers want to integrate everything through the screen, its quicker to install, uses less cables and thus is cheaper for them but a real ball ache for the owner if anything fails as the screens are bleeding expensive. 

That particular one was I believe a Tesla, but VW group have the same version of their touchscreen in ICE and EV, so it’s not just an EV problem. It’s a bean counter problem.

Edited 5 April by cheezemonkhai

[Graham Butcher]

12 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

That particular one was I believe a Tesla, but VW group have the same version of their touchscreen in ICE and EV, so it’s not just an EV problem. It’s a bean counter problem.

The radio for instance on my Superb can be controlled via the screen for things like station changing etc and can be a real PITA as it is so easy to send the whole string of station names scrolling across the screen rather than just changing a station. Thankfully though the mayor radio control, the volume is still controlled via either a rotary knob or roller on the steering wheel and indeed so can station selection be controlled via the steering wheel, albeit after navigating through a multi layered menu on the small screen between the rev counter and speedo.

[Graham Butcher]

The Dacia Spring is on its way here as an electric car that has been designed to be electric from the start and with its target price of £15,000 should entice some people to look at switching to electric. Me, nah, its way too small for my needs.

 

 

Edited 6 April by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

'My friends, let's go.'   

and be schooled on why the value of Tesla shows should stop anyone from getting a Tesla.

 

One might expect that in the 2 years of having that car he might know where Ultra-Rapid chargers are near where he lives / works or where he heads in any direction. 

 

?

Does he claim back 20% VAT?

Is he a business user as far a HMRC are concerned? Getting BIK?

Other than the Car videos, he drives to the ones for Fish & Chips in the car, he does not go by bus, train or bike, maybe carries the equipment, video, drone etc.

Insurance as a business user.

 

79 pence a kWh, £35.44, near 45kWh charged.   Taking up a charger others could have used, and because you wanted a coffee!

Get on up to your cheaper rate Porsche Chargers. 

Fill your superfast charging up slip ons oop there, 

 

No need to call names. What you see is what you get.  A man with style.

A hoody, Ray-ban frame,  and a 'No mam haircut'.  That is, please let a barber do my hair mother.

 

 

 

 

Edited 7 April by Rooted

[Ootohere]

Truth if the matter is that in about 70,000 miles of EV driving with very little home charging until the last 7 months i have only sat in and had food 4 times while charging.

Mainly because there is no place to eat or drink where i charge.

The last time i had a Krispy Kreme and a Coffee at a Krispy Kreme and it was £5.20  about 6 weeks ago.   

Before that is was at a Starbucks & 2 of us were about £15 for 2 drinks and a pastry.   I was not paying.

Twice at KFC,s.

 

I live cheap. Eat cheap and take liquid and food with me which is bought when buying food.

That used to be buying food while charging cheaply or originally free at Supermarkets. 

 

Now that Public charging is so expensive and more than driving an ICE vehicle i will be resuming buying food in shops and not Fast Food outlets of Doughnut Places, 

Coffee establishments where a cup / mug costs twice the price of the 100 gram jar of coffee i buy. 

[J.R.]

On 05/04/2024 at 23:37, cheezemonkhai said:

600 miles at home rates is less than £13.

 

That is a powerful argument!

[@Lee]

Battery stations - Chinese car manufacturer Nio has gone to scale with it in China and is now trying it in Europe. The idea is to cut down waits at charging stations and stop EV buyers from worrying about battery life. But I wonder if it could also be an answer for people who have nowhere to charge off-road at home?

I've always thought that swapping out batteries would be far easier not to mention quicker cutting journey times. Of course there'd need to be a consensus on the standardisation of battery types but if Apple etc can be made to swap to USB-C then anything's possible. 

 

 

https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-battery-swapping-china/?fbclid=IwAR3y1u5FKEBh_0ZQjA58RitEEKh-5TL7g9CuL2dAIibcVdW_zjlfAY_Ij8U

[Ootohere]

A average standard home tariff of 24.05 pence a kWh will get you 100 kWh for £24.50 and if you get 4 miles a kWh then that is 400 miles.

If you are only getting 3 miles a kWh then 300 miles. 

 

A gallon of diesel @ £7.10 a gallon & 50 mpg is 200 miles for £24.40   Get better MPG, say 60 then 240 miles.

Petrol a bit cheaper and a good economy then great.

 

Public charging at 79 pence a kWh, 100 kWh = £79.

Porsche getting 2.7 miles a kWh, 270 miles.     Crazy. 

 

Not if a business user, BIK and claim back VAT on charging.   Winners.   Moaners maybe.   Should have got and paid for a 911. 

Travel and accommodation / food, and a bit of self employed and freelance and part of the expenses.  

Edited 7 April by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

35 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

That is a powerful argument!

Agree, but only so if you can do most of your charging at home.

[Ootohere]

^^^ Well that is that.   

Or at work, or free. Or if others pay for the vehicle and the electricity that saves the business money. 

We know that argument and have done from the first days of this section of Briskoda.

[Graham Butcher]

I've not yet seen that McMaster video and the Tesla but one reason I can think of for why he claims that there are no Ultra Rapid chargers on his route or area may be is because he does not want to deviate from his route and is trying to treat driving an EV in the fashion that an ICE driver would, and that is to pop into a filling station along his route? 

 

As a company car driver and covering a large part of the country, I used to favour Texaco garages because their loyalty scheme seemed to me to be one of the best but since I retired, that is not case for in Essex, the number of their garages has dropped dramatically. I used to have 3 or 4 Texaco forecourts, now there is only the 1 in my area. Plenty in London, but I seldom go that way and on route to the various air bases I go to, there are none on route either. Perhaps it is a similar case for the Taycan man, I don't know or profess to know, but I offer this maybe as a possibility?

 

One thing I do know, is that he has been a Porsche man for many years, and so I expect that his reasoning for dipping into the EV Porsche was because it is/was being touted as the future and he likes Porsche anyway so it seems like it would have been a natural progression for him to follow. 

[xman]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

On 05/04/2024 at 22:37, cheezemonkhai said:

600 miles at home rates is less than £13.

 

That is a powerful argument

 

As I see it, it is a somewhat nonsense and loaded argument.

 

To get 600 miles will require ~170kwh maybe more with charging losses. Presumably "home rates" means overnight special EV rates of around 7.5p/kwh such as Octopus etc.

Those tarrifs are time limited, iirc around 4 hours per 24hrs in the early hours.

 

The max you can charge at home is 7kw (if you've installed a ~£900 or so charge point) so the best you can get over one night is 28kwh (ignoring charging losses) which might give you around 100 miles  real world range on average.

 

In the meantime the electricity company will be scraping back via a premium rate on the rest of the days electric useage.

 

Even less sense if you haven't shelled out for the 7kw point and rely on the granny charger.

 

Of course there will be some that will say you can get 22kw with a 3 phase supply. Good luck with getting that installed at a reasonable price. Not sure the electricity companies will give the same tarrifs on a 3 phase supply, maybe its triple the standing charge too.

 

Standby for the "but I only do 100 miles per week" comments, fair enough, then maybe you think the economics works for you.

 

Why quote 600 mile, no EV has that real qorld range.