the truth about electric cars

[Winston_Woof]

Just now, lol-lol said:

 

Never charged for more than 15 minutes and that is with an EV that can only charge at less than 50 kWs.

Next car will charge at 100, 150 ,200, 250, 350 kW, up to the 60% mark which will be enough to get a hundred miles or more.

Not sure where people get the half hour charging from, most people I see at public chargers are been and gone in ten minutes, 15 sometime and rarely more than 20 minutes, no point, get back on the road and drive for another hour or two and get home to that lovely sub 10p per kWh lecky, to a cheap fast (ie 7-22 kw), not rapid charger which there are tens of thousands.   

 

15 minutes is still 4-5 times longer than it takes to fill my Skoda Superb..............

 

[lol-lol]

4 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

... which, apart from purchase price, is one of the main factors why in March 2024 BEV sales made up a smaller percentage of overall car sales.

 

I know it doesn't seem to affect some (many?) on here but for a significant number of the UK population there is a cost of living problem (call it a crisis if you must) and unless and until BEV prices to buy/lease AND RUN drop considerably the chance of the car makers meeting the market percentage targets is getting smaller all the time.

 

They will when the new batch of Dacia/Renaults come through and if we let the very cheap Chinese cars come in and not stick them with a whole not of Anti-Dumping Duty in addition to the 10% existing customs duty.  The UK and EU government are here to protect EU businesses, not so much EU consumers. 

 

BYD seagull should be only around £10k so very cheap to lease, PCP etc.  French have recently had a program for about 60 Euros a month for Dacia Spring and the like, massively oversubscribed .  Like below, again might be a while before we see RHD version, link to French newspaper which your browser should translate approximately.   

 

https://www.frandroid.com/marques/byd/1958408_le-plus-grand-concurrent-de-tesla-reduit-le-prix-de-sa-voiture-electrique-la-plus-abordable-avant-son-arrivee-en-europe   

[lol-lol]

5 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

15 minutes is still 4-5 times longer than it takes to fill my Skoda Superb..............

 

 

But do not have to stand there looking like I am mating with the car, I walk away, empty my bladder, go get a Starbucks, or Gregs or Maccie Ds etc.

 

With UK unemployment going up perhaps we can go back to attendance service in filling stations ? 

 

[Stonekeeper]

51 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

But do not have to stand there looking like I am mating with the car, I walk away, empty my bladder, go get a Starbucks, or Gregs or Maccie Ds etc.

 

With UK unemployment going up perhaps we can go back to attendance service in filling stations ? 

 

 

 

I walk around my car checking tyres for foreign objects and tread whilst filling up

[wyx087]

21 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

I walk around my car checking tyres for foreign objects and tread whilst filling up

Last time I refuelled, about 2 years ago, I don't remember UK allows petrol nozzles to lock.

 

How do you walk around your car if you must hold the petrol nozzle?

[Stonekeeper]

2 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Last time I refuelled, about 2 years ago, I don't remember UK allows petrol nozzles to lock.

 

How do you walk around your car if you must hold the petrol nozzle?

 

Petrol caps fit under the handle but i have to use a USB stick top because there is no (separate) fuel cap on mine.

Edited 25 April by Stonekeeper

[Graham Butcher]

8 hours ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher  They actually have Ferry Services and get off the islands and might even travel to your 20 and further.

The vehicles actually get there on a boat. 

 

Do you know that many people all around the UK only drive locally much of the time and maybe take occasional longer trips and do not always need long range big vehicles for day to day use.   Then there is the servicing and maintenance for those where there are no MAIN DEALERS around, or even a choice of garages or mechanics.

Like on islands and rural areas.   Not everyone is within a spitting distance of these.

What they actually have ferries .

Well now, when you came out with the statement that there are more EV cars on the Islands per population, it peeked my interest a bit so I looked at the island in more detail and its very obvious that the houses there have almost all, got off-road parking, (a fact confirmed using Google Earth) lending itself to home charging, add in the fact that you are always going about the surplus power that Scotland produces, and the sheer compactness of the islands means that with a full battery even your Mini should be able to cross from one side of Orkney to the other 4 times before needing a charge. So I'm guessing that it makes logical sense to use EV's there if you have an abundance of cheap power, plenty of off-road parking to be able to charge at home at without worries and no need to worry about liquid fuel being in short supply if the rough seas prevent ships/ferries from making the crossing from the mainland bringing fresh supplies at times.

 

As to servicing and repairs, all everyone talks about how little maintenance EVs need and how reliable they are as there are less moving parts etc, and it would seem judging be peoples comments and the YouTubers, that most people up there in Scotland seem to use a lot of mobile EV service people who travel around and make these trips, staying overnight in B&Bs, hotels etc between customers, so it was really a matter of joining up the dots to understand why there is a greater EV ownership on the islands.

Edited 25 April by Graham Butcher

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Petrol caps fit under the handle but i have to use a USB stick top because there is no (separate) fuel cap on mine.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg216.htm

Quote

Make sure that...

proper procedures are followed throughout the filling operation, eg dispenser nozzles are correctly inserted, delivery hoses are not stretched or kinked and tripper latches are not wedged open;

 

Also:

Quote

Petrol - the dangers

• Petrol is a highly flammable liquid which can give off flammable vapour, even at very low temperatures. This means there is always a risk of fire or explosion if a source of ignition is present;
• It floats on the surface of water and may travel long distances, eventually causing danger away from the place where it escaped;
• Petrol vapour does not disperse easily and may also travel long distances. It tends to sink to the lowest possible level and may collect in tanks, cavities, drains, pits, or other enclosed areas, where there is little air movement;
• Flammable atmospheres may be present in empty tanks and petrol cans. There is also a danger if petrol is spilled on clothing, rags etc;
• Petrol vapour can be harmful if inhaled. Petrol should not be swallowed and contact with the skin should be avoided.

 

[EnterName]

I was going to say something but I figured Stonekeeper was just kidding.

[Graham Butcher]

5 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Many people are commuters and Sales Reps / Commercial travellers and using EV,s, but that is a known known.

 

True, but somehow I doubt that is the case in Orkney, being it is a small island and that getting a car to or from the island requires a ferry which may or may not be operational according to the tides and weather, so most EVs would be mainly used on the island.

 

5 hours ago, Ootohere said:

 

You might well be right about people from Orkney, but then you are not always right.

Correct, nobody is always right, either 😉

 

5 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Lots of people in the UK are only going driving in a 25 mile area.   Local people using local shops and doing local miles. 

Very true and I have said that EV's are ideal for a lot of people who are doing that sort of thing as when paired with the ability of home charging, fully maximises the advantages of having an EV until they find a way of taking that advantage of low running costs away, which I expect they are already coming up with a cunning plan to make up for lost revenue from liquid fuel duty.

Edited 25 April by Graham Butcher

[Winston_Woof]

36 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

True, but somehow I doubt that is the case in Orkney, being it is a small island and that getting a car to or from the island requires a ferry which may or may not be operational according to the tides and weather, so most EVs would be mainly used on the island.

 

 

I think I'm correct in saying that the Orkney ferries are electrically powered (hydrogen fuelled???)

[Graham Butcher]

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

UK is only 1100 odd miles furthest top to bottom. 5-6 ~30min stops is more than reasonable for 16 hour drive. 

 

Let's be honest, UK is a small island with roads that are getting clogged up by the day. I can imagine the same view of UK from mainland Europe/China/India/America/Australia. Why wouldn't population on this modest sized island drive EV's? 

What are you on about, it is out of context completely. An older mini electric like Ootohere's fully charged could go from one side to the other on Orkney 4 times before needing to be recharged, The same reason as many airfields now run electric vehicles for many of their operational vehicles and when the airfield closes at the end of the day, put them on charge, and they are ready to go again next morning.

 

The UK is 897 miles from top to bottom, and averaging 50mph is 18 hours driving non-stop. Try and do that trip in a new Mini Electric with theoretical range of 250 miles, would require 3.6 charges to complete the journey and each charge, using an 11Kw charger would be taking around 3.5 hours so that is 3.6 x 3.5 =12.6 hours total charging time, on top of the 18 hours making a total of 30.6 hours, even with 2 drivers means a 15.3 hour each to complete the trip. My diesel car would be able to do that trip in under 18.5 hours including a stop for refuelling and with 2 drivers would mean each driver would be driving for 9.25 hours, which of course could be split up into small periods, but the trip would be almost non-stop.

Edited 25 April by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

8 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

I think I'm correct in saying that the Orkney ferries are electrically powered (hydrogen fuelled???)

I think you may be right on that, I seem recall George posted about that a while ago, but that would still be dependent on suitable sailing weather conditions?

[J.R.]

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

It is this bit particularly "that is why diesels were always massively more economical than petrol engines on short urban journeys especially winter ones,"

 

Wrong on so many levels.

 

Not wrong and you dont need a degree in Thermodynamics to realise, anyone who has owned petrol and diesel vehicles used for short urban journeys will know simply by how much they save at the fuel pumps.

 

"even more de minimus on a diesel engine where there is no enrichment as soon as the compression ignition cycle is self sustaining,"

 

Are you going to say that is wrong on so many levels? A simple yes or no will suffice, save another demonstration of your extensive knowledge for someone that might be impressed by it.

 

To explain for others a petrol engine runs an enriched mixture (choke = low MPG) until it reaches operating temperature, a diesel engine runs an enriched mixture only for starting on glowplugs, once  it has started no further enrichment after a maximum of a couple of seconds.

 

Modern petrol engine achieve impressive economy on long journeys, rivalling and even beating diesel but will never hold a candle to a diesel on short journeys, unfortunately for anything EU5 and onwards short journeys are a catastrophy for the DPF so petrol is better even though it will cost more on fuel.

[Stonekeeper]

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg216.htm

 

Also:

 

 

 

When you hold the handle it does not pull out of your hand and drop when the pump stops because the tank is full. It just becomes ineffective.

 

You do not stop the tripper latch working if something else hold the handle up.

 

Positioned in the right place so as not to interfere with the tripping mechanism the pump always switches off when full.

 

You should not impede the tripping mechanism.

 

 

 

[wyx087]

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

The same reason as many airfields now run electric vehicles for many of their operational vehicles and when the airfield closes at the end of the day, put them on charge, and they are ready to go again next morning.

Great to see you finally get why EV's are so convenient in day-to-day use.

 

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

The UK is 897 miles from top to bottom, and averaging 50mph is 18 hours driving non-stop. Try and do that trip in a new Mini Electric with theoretical range of 250 miles, would require 3.6 charges to complete the journey and each charge, using an 11Kw charger would be taking around 3.5 hours so that is 3.6 x 3.5 =12.6 hours total charging time, on top of the 18 hours making a total of 30.6 hours, even with 2 drivers means a 15.3 hour each to complete the trip. My diesel car would be able to do that trip in under 18.5 hours including a stop for refuelling and with 2 drivers would mean each driver would be driving for 9.25 hours, which of course could be split up into small periods, but the trip would be almost non-stop.

Unfortunately you've started dribbling nonsense here when you tried to calculate EV long distance travel times using a 11 kW charger.

 

First, I'd love to see anyone driving a diesel car for 9.25 hours "almost non stop". Does diesel driver run to the toilet so that they stop less than 5min? Or does this come as standard?  😛 

 

Second, remember EV's are capable of 200+ kW charging speed. ~20min top up while you stretch and eat.

 

This is a typical long drive, a pit stop every ~2 hour for ~20min. Wouldn't be much longer than driving a diesel and also doing comfort stops.

 

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

You do not stop the tripper latch working if something else hold the handle up.

Ah okay. Sorry. I got confused by the word "latch". I thought that's the bit you are holding.

 

Prey, do tell, why do UK not have the locking pin whereas some other countries do have this locking pin? Why do you think it's okay to circumvent this restriction?

[Stonekeeper]

9 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

 

Prey, do tell, why do UK not have the locking pin whereas some other countries do have this locking pin? Why do you think it's okay to circumvent this restriction?

 

 

Because the authorities in the UK have to treat us all like idiots because we have so many?

 

It only takes one idiot to make a Tic Tok video of a pump running not in the tank

 

But what you refer to is a different mechanism than the tripping mechanism  on modern pumps.

 

Canada have reintroduced them.

Edited 25 April by Stonekeeper

[J.R.]

Thanks for posting that and especially the video starting at the point where he does the demonstration, I understood all the relevant elements and did not need to go back but if I hadn't then it was all there.

 

Until now I thought the stop mechanism was triggered by back pressure, they always seem to shut off when the fuel is approaching the top of the tank but by slowing down the flow I can get a couple more gallons in, it must in fact be splashes coming up the filler neck, and now I think about it I always withdraw the nozzle quite a way as it approaches that stage, its very noticeable when filling a Jerrycan.

 

Your next task is to find a video explaining how the modern toilet cistern filling float valves work, I know the water pressure acts on the seal making it seal even tighter and causing a soft close off to avoid water hammer, I know they dont like working on first floor installs with a gravity fed loft cold water tank, I know they dont work when the tiny bleed hole in the membrane becomes blocked with calcaire but would like to see a cut away view to understand the function.

[Graham Butcher]

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Great to see you finally get why EV's are so convenient in day-to-day use.

You really need to work harder at reading what was written down and understanding it. I never said EV's were not convenient in day-to-day use, if their range is suitable and charging ability was also suitable and affordable and if that is what a person wants to opt for then so be it. What I have said is however, that I didn't think that they should be forced upon people, but that they could be an option for people to choose if they suited their needs. For some reason, you seem to have taken the stance that anyone that does not agree with your viewpoint is automatically and irreversibly opposed to EVs as a means of transport, which plainly is not true. I have also pointed out just why I don't think that they are suitable for me personally and I have also pointed out the obvious real world risks that the they pose, but I would not stop you or anyone else from owning and running an EV, its your choice and I respect that.

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Unfortunately you've started dribbling nonsense here when you tried to calculate EV long distance travel times using a 11 kW charger.

 

First, I'd love to see anyone driving a diesel car for 9.25 hours "almost non stop". Does diesel driver run to the toilet so that they stop less than 5min? Or does this come as standard?  😛 

 

Second, remember EV's are capable of 200+ kW charging speed. ~20min top up while you stretch and eat.

 

This is a typical long drive, a pit stop every ~2 hour for ~20min. Wouldn't be much longer than driving a diesel and also doing comfort stops.

 

If you had actually read and understood what I posted, I clearly stated that the car was an electric Mini (Google says that it has a max charge rate of 11kW, not the 200kW that your Tesla is capable of) that was being used for the trip as not everyone has the luxury of having a choice of another car, or being able to afford the hiring of another car for the long distance travelling when needed, and I was the same example when discussing the Orkneys with George, and that was because he has one and frequently posts interesting logs of his journeys and how he charges the car on those trips. 

You not only overestimated the miles between the most northerly and southerly point of the UK, but you also got the time it would take for such a drive and still be within the legal speed limit, wrong. It is a widely accepted rule of thumb that it is reasonable to expect on a long trip that 50mph is a good yard stick to use for estimating the time of the trip, so if the distance was 1100 miles that you claimed, it would take 16 hours (in reality 1100 /50=22 hours). 

 

You also thought that for 16 hours of driving, you would need 5 to 6 comfort stops of 20 minutes each to refuel/charge and empty your bladder, thus making your journey time become at least 18 hours. So using your metric of every 2.67 hours driving (based on 6 breaks), a comfort break of 20  minutes would be needed, so accepting the 50mph average speed, that becomes 22/2.67=8.24 comfort breaks to be taken, adding another 2.72 hours making an approx total time of 18.72 hours to complete a trip that is essentially John 0' Groats to Land's End.

 

I did also however, for the sake of keeping the total time to a minimum, say that I had assumed 2 drivers per car to keep driver fatigue at bay.

 

I did however enjoy the thought of the passenger seat having an optional toilet built in and had a good laugh at that.

Edited 25 April by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

Google is the issue, do better research.

It us a max 11 kW AC charging speed, DC on a CCS is 50 kW in a 32.6 kW battery.   So 11kW AC being handy if 50 kW chargers are not available. 

 

I had a 50 kW Battery car with 45 kW usable and 100 kW max charge speed but only 7 kW AC onboard charger and i was never near 100 kW chargers and the 50 kW were not reliable.

I knew the range of the MINI was not great, but the charges can be quick, and if waiting for a charger there is the 11 kW available often and maybe no need to even use the 50 kW if i can just get enough miles added.  The downside is that i can not have many miles from the Home charge but then for 3 years before that i was not home charging i could charge free near to home.

 

I brought up Orkney because as i was pointing out there are many different regions of the UK and EV,s are plentiful in different places.

Or per capita there are more EV,s being driven.

They can suit many people,  low mileage drivers and long trip, daily drivers,  people are different.

 

Last night i read a story on how many EV,s just arrived off ships from China into the UK.

Maybe some are for onward travel to the EU, but there are a good number of cheapish BEV,s away to be First Registered in the UK in the next months.

Likely Partners of VW Group vehicles to stop them being up sh!t creak without enough of their own BEV,s to First Register.

The New electric MINI,s with 80 or 100 kW Max charging and longer ranges will be arriving from China into the UK this year. 

 

This is from a Google search and then the papers are maybe not to be trusted.

Edited 26 April by Ootohere

[Ootohere]

Love the Mail.   

The Ship did not sink, but the Chinese might shut down the EV,s remotely and bring chaos to the UK roads, economy.  Maybe on the day of the General Election when Oliver Dowden MP & Jeremy Hunt MP are just going to be out of a job the next day.

[Graham Butcher]

@Ootohere Ok I stand corrected then, but still the maths using @wyx087 metrics of the comfort breaks remains true, just that the Mini is capable of even faster DC charging of upto 50kW but not the 200kW that he claimed, although his Tesla might well be.

 

Also I was right in as much as for the folk on Orkney, who might never take their car on a longer journey then from point A to point B on the island, then they can do that without the need for a charge in order to complete the journey so it does make good fiscal sense to run an EV with home charging as all charging can be done at home at lower rates.

Edited 26 April by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

@Ootohere The possibility is there for almost every modern car these days to be remotely disabled with ever-increasing use of electronic tech in cars. This was never possible in the golden era of cars. Just imagine the situation if in WW2 that was possible then, the chaos it would cause, but for the side that had that power, victory would be a certainty.

[wyx087]

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

What I have said is however, that I didn't think that they should be forced upon people, but that they could be an option for people to choose if they suited their needs. For some reason, you seem to have taken the stance that anyone that does not agree with your viewpoint is automatically and irreversibly opposed to EVs as a means of transport, which plainly is not true. I have also pointed out just why I don't think that they are suitable for me personally and I have also pointed out the obvious real world risks that the they pose, but I would not stop you or anyone else from owning and running an EV, its your choice and I respect that.

Nice of you to put words in other people's mouth. 

 

All I'm doing is educating, especially on complex topics. For example, believing Google's 11 kW charge rate, or a random summary article about solar FIT. In your instance, Google isn't wrong, the max on-board AC-DC charger is 11 KW. But DC charging rate can be faster. 

 

Able to do multiply and division does not mean able to calculate a complex system..... 

If you want to use rule of thumb by lowering average travel speed from 70 mph down to 50 mph. It makes EV driving much more feasible because as speed decreases, time between charging increases beyond human capability. 

 

Let's do an proper comparable example with the Mini. 

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=2f36d593-2cfb-4f2c-a41a-74ba84eb5d5f

6 hr 50min driving; 2 hr 45min charging. 

Compared to using MY LR: 

6 hr 48min driving; 43min charging. 

City EV can do long distance, just like early Nissan Leaf have been driven JoG to LE. City EV's need more stops to top up, roughly every hour for the Mini it seems. There's so many charging hubs along trunk road these days it's really non issue. 

 

5 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The possibility is there for almost every modern car these days to be remotely disabled with ever-increasing use of electronic tech in cars.

Newer ICE cars are different and don't connect to the internet? 

[Ootohere]

Current MINI Electric.

Almost empty say 5 miles range to full, showing 100% & between 94 & 124 miles range.

3 pin AC charger, 12-15 hours, ambient temp dependent.

11 kW AC charger 3 hours.

43-50 kW DC / CCS charger.  60 minutes maybe.

 

For 2 hours driving say and 95 miles and into a 50 kW charger is is under 60 minutes.

If getting 4 miles per kWh maybe 45 mins to 98% and able to drive another 2 hours and 100 miles +.

 

50KWh battery i used to count it as for 150 miles i needed 70 minutes to be able to then go another 135 miles.

150 miles was very rare from the 45 kWh usable battery, and freezing weather 110 miles was sometimes a wish and a dream.

 

During Covid i had a Porta-Potti in the boot and a pop up tent, because i was travelling and there were no public toilets open.

I never needed to use them but i was prepared incase i needed to.