Almost certain there will be anti-dumping duties on them, the Germans will certainly want to protect their carmakers.

Hyundai premium brand ev towing in 100 mile between charges

 

There is a way to go yet. 1.5m per kw is not good enough.

 

 

 

Edited 21 February, 20242 yr by Stonekeeper

54 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I'm not confusing software updates with parts obsolescence, it is the parts that I'm referring to. Modern cars have so much tech in them these days compared to the example I gave with the 1908 Rolls Royce, a battery, coil, set of points was used and these can still be sourced today, hence the vast old classic car scene and annual rallies, London to Brighton runs etc. Todays cars are controlled by computers and electronics and it will be these parts that will become obsolete long before mechanical parts as most mechanical parts can be fabricated, electronic chips cannot, the world is full of dead electronic equipment that cannot be restored to working status because these chips are no longer made. 

I agree with the importance of keeping stuff going by any means necessary. 

 

But I feel you are being overly dramatic for electronics. Just like mechanical parts, everything can be re-done or adopted to work given enough motivation. For example there is battery adaptor harness for Nissan Leaf:  https://github.com/dalathegreat/Nissan-LEAF-Battery-Upgrade Zero manufacturer support, just some guy figuring this out in his spare time. 

 

There is also Chademo to CCS adaptor for Leaf, allowing it to rapid charge anywhere. Again, figured out by third party. 

 

57 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Apple has been proved to be deliberately obstructing third party repairers and even coding things like batteries, screens, digitizers etc to specific phones, tablets etc, not just a model range, but each individual piece of equipment. The older products, if you can source batteries etc are fine, they predate their coding. They also degrade the battery performance of older devices as they reach the ending of software support, again this has been proven.

 

Now if you attempt to replace a battery etc without going to a Apple Service centre, where they can code the part to the device, they device will now tell the user that the device is not a genuine part and react accordingly.

 

About genuine iPhone batteries – Apple Support (UK)

There is nothing that actively stops a non-genuine battery from working in any of the Apple devices. Warning buried deep in a settings page is very good to product history is recorded. 

 

The degrade performance of older device saga is a storm in a tea cup. Batteries will eventually degrade to a point where it can no longer provide required power. So Apple put in protection to prevent voltage drop and crashes. It's not good that this information isn't previously available, but it was not maliciously done to promote device obsolescence, as you seems to suggest. 

39 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Almost certain there will be anti-dumping duties on them, the Germans will certainly want to protect their carmakers.

 

It is not a case of "wanting" but it has to be by an Anti-Dumping investigation which means EU Auditors gathering evidence of what cars cost to Chinese consumers and then what they are supplied as a price in to the EU.

 

If the EU value is lower then ADD can be applied but as these cars are generally about half the price in China than they are in the EU then "trouble at mill".

 

 Companies like BYD and SAIC, which is partly Chinese government owned I recall reading, then their prices to Chinese consumers is in part to annihilate the 90 odd not so big EV manufacturers so there is just a few big ones left so they, like TESLA, are selling at near cost or even as a lost leader to vanquish the opposition which does undermine the EU ADD investigation I feel.

 

EU could think about Countervailing Duties or Retaliatory duties maybe but this is grabbing at straws somewhat and China might retaliate by either not supply at all, or is only small quantities key material it controls ie Lithium maybe or rare earth metals.

 

BYD are going to build cars in Hungary just as Suzuki have done for a long time and as Mercedes, Audi / VW Group have their Components including EV Motors. 

Re Caravanning. 

 

My parents started before i ever remember and it was with a Caravan built in my uncles Undertakers / Joiners Yard for all the family. (Not Mafia.)

& towed by an Austin Gypsy owned by him. Or the building firm.  (Not Mafia, Masons, same thing.)

 

Then my mum and dad had cars always that were for towing and i have the rally plaques from there caravanning years right up to about 24 years ago.

Thousands from early 1950,s so over 50 years.

They had small vans, medium and big and pretty luxury ones, but sensible sized and they could sleep 5 when i was young. 

 

The caravans i see behind EV,s are huge, an i see ones weekly now.  Tesla, Polestars towing, even the odd VW or Skoda. 

No way in the world would i want such a length of van no matter what i was towing it with but as for behind an EV that just seems strange to me. 

Edited 21 February, 20242 yr by Rooted

48 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

But I feel you are being overly dramatic for electronics. Just like mechanical parts, everything can be re-done or adopted to work given enough motivation. For example there is battery adaptor harness for Nissan Leaf:  https://github.com/dalathegreat/Nissan-LEAF-Battery-Upgrade Zero manufacturer support, just some guy figuring this out in his spare time. 

I'm talking about true electronics, not harness's I've lost count of the number of those that I've designed and made for vital pieces of oil field fire fighting equipment while working for Halliburtons and also on buses, lorries and cars over the years. I'm talking about IC chips, very often custom created for various functions and models that have limited production runs, once stocks are used up, it is then uneconomic to produce small amounts, far cheaper to replace the complete piece of equipment or car.  Integrated circuit - Wikipedia

 

48 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

There is nothing that actively stops a non-genuine battery from working in any of the Apple devices. Warning buried deep in a settings page is very good to product history is recorded. 

 

The degrade performance of older device saga is a storm in a tea cup. Batteries will eventually degrade to a point where it can no longer provide required power. So Apple put in protection to prevent voltage drop and crashes. It's not good that this information isn't previously available, but it was not maliciously done to promote device obsolescence, as you seems to suggest. 

Yes there is, Apple have been found guilty of downgrading the battery performance on some of their older phones at the same time as doing a software update over the air in the guise of the latest version of the operating software. There is nothing physical that stops the battery performing, it is software driven that gives false capacity readings and that will I guess then just anything that reports low battery capacity, shut the phone down until it is recharged. This was discovered when thousands of users reported that their phones had suddenly stopped lasting as long between charges following an operating system upgrade which all phone companies issue from time to time on phones that they are willing to support.  Microsoft do Windows updates from time to time and then they will also stop doing so, case in point, Windows 10, introduced July 29th 2015 and all support will be pulled on Oct 14th 2025 and only Windows 11 (introduced Oct 5th 2021) will receive support. 

 

There will come a time when even Tesla will stop software support on their early models, but as long as the electronic control modules continue to operate, so will the cars. 

Edited 21 February, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

28 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Re Caravanning. 

 

My parents started before i ever remember and it was with a Caravan built in my uncles Undertakers / Joiners Yard for all the family. (Not Mafia.)

& towed by an Austin Gypsy owned by him. Or the building firm.  (Not Mafia, Masons, same thing.)

 

Then my mum and dad had cars always that were for towing and i have the rally plaques from there caravanning years right up to about 24 years ago.

Thousands from early 1950,s so over 50 years.

They had small vans, medium and big and pretty luxury ones, but sensible sized and they could sleep 5 when i was young. 

 

The caravans i see behind EV,s are huge, an i see ones weekly now.  Tesla, Polestars towing, even the odd VW or Skoda. 

No way in the world would i want such a length of van no matter what i was towing it with but as for behind an EV that just seems strange to me. 

When I used to do caravaning, I used a Rover 2000TC as my tow car, but I gave all that up when I got married as my wife hates caravans. The Superb so caravan magazine says, makes an ideal tow car and was their tow car of the year for a while. I should imagine a DV would make an excellent tow car with their heavy batteries providing the sturdy anchor to keep the rig in check and also with their massive torque figures being so high. Their only problem is currently going to be the extra drain on the batteries and thus greatly reduced range between charges.

23 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I'm talking about true electronics, not harness's I've lost count of the number of those that I've designed and made for vital pieces of oil field fire fighting equipment while working for Halliburtons and also on buses, lorries and cars over the years. I'm talking about IC chips, very often custom created for various functions and models that have limited production runs, once stocks are used up, it is then uneconomic to produce small amounts, far cheaper to replace the complete piece of equipment or car.

It is still entirely possible to scavenge IC from similar boards, use compatible alternative and/or create one's own alternative using other electronics. It depends on the IC, because they range from simple voltage regulators all the way to brains of the operating. Luckily usually it's the simplest IC that fails first, or temperature related failure with solder joints. 

 

Don't worry, I work in this field in my day job (that I'm supposed to be doing now). I know all about problems parts obsolescence create, but there's always a way around it. 

 

32 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes there is, Apple have been found guilty of downgrading the battery performance on some of their older phones at the same time as doing a software update over the air in the guise of the latest version of the operating software. There is nothing physical that stops the battery performing, it is software driven that gives false capacity readings and that will I guess then just anything that reports low battery capacity, shut the phone down until it is recharged. This was discovered when thousands of users reported that their phones had suddenly stopped lasting as long between charges following an operating system upgrade which all phone companies issue from time to time on phones that they are willing to support. 

No, what you claim is completely false. 

Apple did not downgrade battery performance of their phones. They downgraded processor performance in order to keep the devices operational for longer. 

There is physical limitations with aged battery. As battery degrade it can no longer deliver as much power. 

Have a read on a summary: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51413724

 

35 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

There will come a time when even Tesla will stop software support on their early models, but as long as the electronic control modules continue to operate, so will the cars. 

Exactly. Update or not does not mean the thing is obsolete. Although it would become vulnerable to cyber threats.  Phones are slightly different because there's the problem with software. 

 

My point is that software feature updates allows the car to feel fresh, stay competitive despite its age. Thus more likely to be retained for longer by the owner. 

@wyx087 I know that I'm right about the IC's. Don't forget these items have been scrapped for a reason, many items scraped cost thousands of pounds just a few short years ago, and they get sent for repair first. If it were a dry solder joint, or something that could still be sourced or scavenged then they would have done so, we have the equipment to test items and data sheets to enable the injection of a signal into a chip and detect if the chip responds correctly using other test equipment which will show if an IC is defective.🤔

 

As to the phones, you can choose to believe what you want. One day, when the real truth gets out, remember, where you heard it first.

Edited 21 February, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

 

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087 I know that I'm right about the IC's. Don't forget these items have been scrapped for a reason, many items scraped cost thousands of pounds just a few short years ago, and they get sent for repair first. If it were a dry solder joint, or something that could still be sourced or scavenged then they would have done so, we have the equipment to test items and data sheets to enable the injection of a signal into a chip and detect if the chip responds correctly using other test equipment which will show if an IC is defective.🤔

 

As to the phones, you can choose to believe what you want. One day, when the real truth gets out, remember, where you heard it first.

I have had experience with the iPhone batterygate because in my family had 3 of the listed affected devices. I know there is no such thing as what you claimed "downgrading the battery performance" nor "software driven that gives false capacity readings". Batteries degrade as they age, there will be a point where it can no longer supply required power. When that happens, voltage drops and causes errors. That is what Apple are avoiding. Don't believe me, simply measure voltage drop of a battery while you turn up current draw.

 

Similarly, I have working experience with many IC's in my day job. Stuff you claim are overly dramatic. Scrapped PCB's can still have many salvageable components. At home, I've repaired graphics cards with oven, I've repaired monitors and motherboards. At work, latest salvage was batches of NVMe M.2 drives as someone else wired up TX and RX wrong way round. I write embedded software and firmware for living.

 

Finally, just like above 2 cases, I have been living with EV's for over 6 years. I know how they behave and how to use them, unlike people who only read about fear stories. 🙄

@wyx087All I'm going to say further on this issue is that you believe what ever you want to believe, but I know that they are already embroiled in lawsuits against them and there are many more about to start and they have had many others before. They have already admitted some of the claims made against them are correct and have settled out of court on some, others the battle continues, this is going to be another incident like the Post Office and the Postmasters and Fujitsu and their Horizon software battles. Just keep watching and waiting, all will be revealed in the fullness of time.

 

In my family we have loads of their devices from phones, tablets MP3 players and even TV, nobody is denying that they make good products that are highly desirable, You have 3 devices, I can count in to the tens in my family and I know the experiences. 

 

I have also personally replaced batteries in their phones, one was in a phone just after the user updated the software, and it did make some improvement but not much. I then placed that battery into the other phone which had not been updated and the phone lasted well over a day with fairly heavy usage for game playing, it was then updated, and the battery would only last a few hours without being on charge.  Both of those phones have now been replaced with newer models. I however am the odd one out, I have Android phones.

 

When you say, measure the battery voltage when while you turn up current draw and see the volt drop, welcome to basic physics 101, that proves nothing. The phones already have a built-in low power mode built-in that the user can elect to use to extend the battery life at the expense of unnecessary apps and screen goes to dark mode to conserve power and the system then prioritises the basic functions of a phone without all the bloatware.

 

As to you repairing video cards, motherboards and monitors, well so have I and many other items, oscilloscopes, digital multimeters, signal generators, frequencies counters, mobile phones, calibrators etc. but when you come across custom ASICs and that chip was custom-made for a particular manufacturer and model, when that maker decides to pull the plug on that model and bring out a new one, those chips are no longer for sale and are destroyed because the manufacturer no longer wants to support that device and high-end oscilloscopes are rammed with them. Unless you can come across another scrapped scope that you could possibly scavenge the ASICs from, you are screwed, and even if you do find one, the chances are that it is the ASICs that have failed as well, as the standard IC's are far cheaper to source and would have been replaced and the scope dumped when the ASIC was found to be faulty and was as rare as hens teeth.

 

Like you, I have also written software for some projects, and also designed the controls, built the panels, wrote the program software and installed and maintained the controls for a major crematorium and others including munition companies along with quite a lot of hospitals both NHS and private healthcare sectors.

 

As for EV's and your personal experience, I don't have issues with that at all. If I could charge at home and only needed to do short trips and on the occasions I did long ones, if there were destination chargers at the venues, then I'd possibly swap my car for an EV and save vast amounts of money, but where I go, there are no destination chargers so that option is a currently a no-no. But does not stop me following the progress of electric cars and their development. One thing it does allow me to do is to look at the whole electric issue in the round without being financially and personally involved either way and so can see possible problems as well admire the performance and efficiency and their very low acoustic impacts 

Edited 22 February, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

@Stonekeeper the caravan. Towing vid keeps getting posted.  Last time you did I directed anyone to the rowing with an EV thread.  If anyone is surprised by how much a EV.s range is reduced by towing then maybe they never tow with a car with a ICE.   The charging an EV while towing or having to unhook has been discussed and covered many times as well.  Some people might keep on using EV.s to tow and some that do might think a lighter van might be a good idea.  I suspect though that they might just go for cars with bigger batteries.  

some interesting discussion on EVs during this weeks AutoAlex podcast  (linked to correct point but if that barfs its at 36m52s)

2 hours ago, Rooted said:

@Stonekeeper the caravan. Towing vid keeps getting posted.  Last time you did I directed anyone to the rowing with an EV thread.  If anyone is surprised by how much a EV.s range is reduced by towing then maybe they never tow with a car with a ICE.   The charging an EV while towing or having to unhook has been discussed and covered many times as well.  Some people might keep on using EV.s to tow and some that do might think a lighter van might be a good idea.  I suspect though that they might just go for cars with bigger batteries.  

 

 

My ice vehicle does use more fuel when towing but i can still take 1400kg to Cornwall  from Lancashire without refueling

 

When an ev can do that i will get onboard. Or if they get to 200mile and i see evidence that all the caravans on a service station on a Bank holiday weekend can recharge.

 

Last year we went to site in Norfolk met a man with an audi a3 electric, i was very interested until he said he had come from Lincoln, recharged at Kings Lynn and needed to find a charger at the site.

Edited 22 February, 20242 yr by Stonekeeper

39 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

My ice vehicle does use more fuel when towing but i can still take 1400kg to Cornwall  from Lancashire without refueling

 

When an ev can do that i will get onboard. Or if they get to 200mile and i see evidence that all the caravans on a service station on a Bank holiday weekend can recharge.

 

Last year we went to site in Norfolk met a man with an audi a3 electric, i was very interested until he said he had come from Lincoln, recharged at Kings Lynn and needed to find a charger at the site.

the advantage of towing a caravan is that you can carry a petrol/diesel engined generator in it to charge your EV whenever you want.............................

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

All I'm going to say further on this issue is that.....

A 600+ word essay

 

I won't go further off-topic. Obviously we both have vastly difference experiences with electronics.

 

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

As for EV's and your personal experience, I don't have issues with that at all. If I could charge at home and only needed to do short trips and on the occasions I did long ones, if there were destination chargers at the venues, then I'd possibly swap my car for an EV and save vast amounts of money, but where I go, there are no destination chargers so that option is a currently a no-no. But does not stop me following the progress of electric cars and their development. One thing it does allow me to do is to look at the whole electric issue in the round without being financially and personally involved either way and so can see possible problems as well admire the performance and efficiency and their very low acoustic impacts 

I respectfully disagree on 2 counts:

Without extended experience you are not qualified to comment on practicality of it on account of fear of the unknown, thus more likely to believe horror stories and fabricated bad experiences for viewerships.

With ownership does not equal to financially involved and being blind to shortcomings. With experience, one could make well informed estimates on horror stories and truthfulness of bad experiences.

 

The only aspect that you can say I may be biased is towards EV fires. But then, in those instances, I've always made my points using public available verifiable stats.

42 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

My ice vehicle does use more fuel when towing but i can still take 1400kg to Cornwall  from Lancashire without refueling

Quick google says 350 miles.

 

Considering towing usually use double rated consumption, you'll want a 700+ miles brick-like EV to satisfy your requirement. I can't see that happen anytime soon, unfortunately. All recent improvements to range are on aerodynamics (eg. M3 LR '24 have same powertrain as previous M3 LR), which will see bigger disparity between towing or not towing.

 

@Rooted sorry, it was actually meant for @wyx087

To say I'm puzzled is an understatement. Show me an airforce base which has destination chargers in its public parking areas. These are temporary parking in the middle of the base, on grass adjacent to the runways, it just is not going to happen. I don't do any other long trips these days, I used to when I was working to visit customers. 

Edited 22 February, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

13 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

To say I'm puzzled is an understatement. Show me an airforce base which has destination chargers in its public parking areas. These are temporary parking in the middle of the base, on grass adjacent to the runways, it just is not going to happen. I don't do any other long trips these days, I used to when I was working to visit customers. 

There are more and more rapid charging hubs every day, if you can't charge at destination.

 

But I'm now also puzzled as to why would you direct that question to me?

@wyx087Yes we have vastly different experiences with electronics, I tend like to repair and save electronic equipment used for specific purposes, which most people have zero knowledge. These are not mass produced items such as consumer products. 👍

1 minute ago, wyx087 said:

There are more and more rapid charging hubs every day, if you can't charge at destination.

 

But I'm now also puzzled as to why would you direct that question to me?

Because of your comment when seemed to dismiss me as a potential EV owner and therefore had nothing valid to say about them. Tell me how charging Hubs can cope with hundreds of cars looking for a charge in order to get home again? I can fill my car before leaving home and return without refilling. 

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

Because of your comment when seemed to dismiss me as a potential EV owner and therefore had nothing valid to say about them.

Does this read like dismissing potential EV ownership? Or dismissing re-post of social media guff?

45 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Without extended experience you are not qualified to comment on practicality of it on account of fear of the unknown, thus more likely to believe horror stories and fabricated bad experiences for viewerships.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Tell me how charging Hubs can cope with hundreds of cars looking for a charge in order to get home again?

There wasn't any problem back in 2019 with Fully Charged Live, where many attendees drove early shorter range EV's. It isn't going to be any problem now with more rapid charging hubs everywhere and more LR EV's.

 

Tell me are those hundreds of cars all driving to/from exact same destination?

 

Fear of unknown generates unrealistic requirements.

On 21/02/2024 at 09:30, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087 Like it or not, your Tesla and my car all will suffer the same fate in time, certain crucial parts, cameras etc will be go out of production and will knock out certain functions when those parts fail and will not be available to buy.

IIRC car manufacturers are required to make key components (whatever that means) for 10 years after the end of production - how critical that is depends entirely on the meaning of "key components".

 

BTW Skoda stop updating sat nav maps only 5 years after the particular infotainment system is no longer used in production, so clearly they don't regard being able to find your destination as critical!