25 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

RIAT official website talked about 2023, click into the link. Although I didn't quote any numbers, only the wording from official website.

 

So are you denying that this is the link you posted?

 

"I've no idea about FCL numbers. I agree it wouldn't be as much as airshow.

Although the RIAT official website says the numbers are across 3 days:  https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/event/royal-international-air-tattoo"

 

That link is not the official RIAT website but belongs to BAESystems who sponsor the air show for obvious reasons 🙄

 

How many times do I have to say that I also have not ruled out the prospect of me getting an EV? The only ones I could afford are 2nd hand ones, and being a pensioner, funds are limited and current models are not suitable for my current needs. 

Edited 22 February, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

What is it we are arguing?

Why would I deny stuff I've posted?

 

But I do apologies I don't know what is RIAT's official site and what isn't, I've never been to RIAT airshow. From initial quick search the BAE systems webpage looked official.

 

It would be good to get an idea whether that quoted 200,000 number is across 3 days or all in 1 day. It makes a huge difference to the scale. I get the feeling FCL numbers are across all the days.

 

The biggest gathering I've been is about 10 years ago at Bristol balloon festival, the final night had 250,000 people attending according to the loud speaker person. I don't remember any problem getting back to where I was staying afterwards. I can't foresee any problem driving 130 miles from Bristol back to London in today's EV. Just top up somewhere along M4, there's many charging sites nowadays. People's situation will all be different, it wouldn't be hundreds of cars from an event all wanting to charge at same location.

50 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

What is it we are arguing?

Why would I deny stuff I've posted?

 

But I do apologies I don't know what is RIAT's official site and what isn't, I've never been to RIAT airshow. From initial quick search the BAE systems webpage looked official.

 

It would be good to get an idea whether that quoted 200,000 number is across 3 days or all in 1 day. It makes a huge difference to the scale. I get the feeling FCL numbers are across all the days.

 

The biggest gathering I've been is about 10 years ago at Bristol balloon festival, the final night had 250,000 people attending according to the loud speaker person. I don't remember any problem getting back to where I was staying afterwards. I can't foresee any problem driving 130 miles from Bristol back to London in today's EV. Just top up somewhere along M4, there's many charging sites nowadays. People's situation will all be different, it wouldn't be hundreds of cars from an event all wanting to charge at same location.

Firstly, like you, I'm not arguing, just pointing out inaccuracies of claims being made.

 

Yes, both FCL and RIAT are 3-day events, and it should be no surprise that they are Friday, Saturday and Sunday and as Friday is a workday it will be the least supported day, that's logical.
Its around the 150 mile trip for me to RIAT and unless I have something like your Tesla which for reasons already explained, would not be the case (£53k) so would possibly need to charge on the way there and again on the way back if I had a car like @Rootedmini, that would be the case. I already have to leave home at about 4:00am to get there just after the gates open. 

I certainly would not want to leave any earlier, or indeed stop for a charge on the way home as it is already quite late in the night by the time we get home. Compare that with my current car, I know I fill up the tank the night before, and I'm good for 600 - 700 miles so no need for stopping on the way home, once we have got off the base. 

 

So if we can only get tickets for the Sunday, not a problem with the range either as the following morning, I have to do another trip of 30+ miles taking my son to work for his 7:30am start.

I also know from talking to other people at the show that they have driven down on the day from places like Manchester, Newcastle, Norwich etc and if they were driving an electric car could also be seeking somewhere close by to grab a charge, and this is just going to get worse as more electric cars are brought each year upto 2035, when all new cars will be electric. But hopefully by that time, the range will be greater and cars will be more affordable. If I was still working, it would be a Tesla sitting outside my house as it is a no brainer when the BIK is considered and that someone else is paying for the car and savings made on fuel costs would offset the BIK tax.

Not an air show, but when I had the Corsa Electric and there was still plenty free charging I went to plenty events.    Not paying for petrol or diesel paid for the Travelodge, Premier inn or Best Western.  It was great being places early.  In the diesel this time.  200 miles yesterday. 300 miles today. 450 miles tomorrow.  Getting expensive these days.   By next weekend will have done 1,100 miles and getting 47 mpg.  No way would I mess about with passengers and charging when places to be and people to see.  On my Jack Jones or with a passenger that is understanding of messing about to get charged it is ok.  But not when. 69 pence or more a kWh.   Tesla non Tesla charging is cheaper.  I will never have a Tesla though.  Or any car that needs the left hand using a touch screen.

I agree, if I was getting free charging, then using a electric car and grabbing a hotel room for the night before would be sensible thing to do. The only problem would be that because that event is so popular and it is miles from anywhere, hotels get booked very early in the year and prices for that week quadruple, and hence why there are so many camping sites around the area. Such is the demand as many plane spotters are there for week before and the next few days after, catching the arrivals and departures. One aviation forum even has its own grandstand there every year and it is rammed. 

Edited 23 February, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I also know from talking to other people at the show that they have driven down on the day from places like Manchester, Newcastle, Norwich etc and if they were driving an electric car could also be seeking somewhere close by to grab a charge, and this is just going to get worse as more electric cars are brought each year upto 2035, when all new cars will be electric.

 

From Manchester, I'd charge around half way on return. if not Birmingham, it'd be https://electroverse.octopus.energy/map/location/1059727. Would be good to stretch legs halfway during a 3 hour drive.

For Newcastle, I'd charge up somewhere around Birmingham on the way, then again on the way back. Or stay the night near Gloucester/Swindon. It's a 5 hour drive non-stop!

For Norwich, charging is plentiful near Oxford and Milton Keynes. I don't expect anyone to do the 4 hours drive without at least stopping once.

 

With any EV that can do 200+ miles, finding charge point really is no problem. This is speaking from experience, unlike 60 miles range Leaf, today's longer range EV's massively expands charging options.

 

With everyone going different directions and have different destinations, there wouldn't be massive queues because just like fossil fuel, you don't top up next to a busy event. This is just common sense.

 

But problem is, when people don't want to change, they don't seek out options and present something that they only do once a year as a barrier. Not having driveway charging is a very real barrier though, makes day-to-day usage difficult.

18 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

From Manchester, I'd charge around half way on return. if not Birmingham, it'd be https://electroverse.octopus.energy/map/location/1059727. Would be good to stretch legs halfway during a 3 hour drive.

For Newcastle, I'd charge up somewhere around Birmingham on the way, then again on the way back. Or stay the night near Gloucester/Swindon. It's a 5 hour drive non-stop!

For Norwich, charging is plentiful near Oxford and Milton Keynes. I don't expect anyone to do the 4 hours drive without at least stopping once.

 

With any EV that can do 200+ miles, finding charge point really is no problem. This is speaking from experience, unlike 60 miles range Leaf, today's longer range EV's massively expands charging options.

 

With everyone going different directions and have different destinations, there wouldn't be massive queues because just like fossil fuel, you don't top up next to a busy event. This is just common sense.

 

But problem is, when people don't want to change, they don't seek out options and present something that they only do once a year as a barrier. Not having driveway charging is a very real barrier though, makes day-to-day usage difficult.

If they can get charging times at chargers down to something akin to the time it takes to fill a tank, then I don't see a problem. There are cars around like the Honda CRV that have to be filled about the 200 mile mark. But as you said, a Leaf and other similar cars they would need charging at least 4 times for me to make it there and back. 

 

Started to look at hotels this morning and for the Saturday night they are already booked up and I'm now looking at 100 mile radius and prices around the £200 a night mark. 

It must be very difficult for car manufacturers to plan manufacturing, when on one hand the people who buy cars are hesitant about buying EVs, but governments are increasingly insistent that they do.

For some time, vehicle manufacturers bought into the various governments' agendas, and invested heavily in EV production.

As we have seen in the UK, it doesn't really matter what the general public want, as, extremists aside, they just do what they are told by the Government, whatever it is, once a critical mass consensus has been established.

(Organic or artificial, a consensus is a consensus, if it's the only opinion allowed.)

I am trying to understand what is happening with EVs now, as some vehicle manufacturers scale back commitment to EV production.

 

Are they responding to the market cooling on EVs, in defiance of government diktats?

Do they anticipate regime changes in their various markets, and are pausing commitments while they see how such changes play out?

Is the slow-down really all about cost? Personally, buying costs seem reasonable, but living with an EV demands more compromises than I am prepared to put up with at this time.

Or maybe it's a combination of factors?

Taxes on EV use are starting to trickle in, and free charging is starting to disappear for many EV users, so apart from the affluent idealists with their solar panels and battery storage etc., running costs are going to rise for the average EV user, not least of which will be insurance, as insurance companies realise that even fairly humdrum collisions can write-off an EV.

 

It seems that now all the early adopters have got their EVs, as well as most of guests late to the EV party, so those who remain without EVs seem to be a hardcore of stubborn people who like ICE vehicles, and are going to have to be forced out of them into EVs.

(Perhaps like drug addicts, they'll be weaned-off ICE vehicles via hybrids. 😄)

 

But if everyone who wants an EV has one, and if coercion is the only way to get most people to choose an EV over ICE, then there may be some political fallout for the governments doing the coercion.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-delays-ev-manufacturing-investment-cars-too-expensive-2023-10?r=US&IR=T

https://archive.ph/GHRip

 

36 minutes ago, EnterName said:

Are they responding to the market cooling on EVs, in defiance of government diktats?

The market cooling is due to over supply of first group of longer range EV's as they come to end of lease, at the same time early adopters who really want EV's already got one by now. As you said.

 

37 minutes ago, EnterName said:

Do they anticipate regime changes in their various markets, and are pausing commitments while they see how such changes play out?

Is the slow-down really all about cost? Personally, buying costs seem reasonable, but living with an EV demands more compromises than I am prepared to put up with at this time.

Or maybe it's a combination of factors?

The general change of tide is still there, but the timeline may be no longer clear due to poor investment in charging infrastructure. As seen in last few posts, people are hesitant to jump in without having the assurance that it will all work just the way they are used to.

 

Then there's unhelpful FUD going around, such as batteries only last 10 years or Toyota's "self charging" marketing and the delay tactic that consumers should wait for next best thing. Combined all will continue to prolong the adoption curve.

 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

If they can get charging times at chargers down to something akin to the time it takes to fill a tank, then I don't see a problem.

Rapid charging for good EV's would certainly be shorter than nip to the loo for people from Norwich and Manchester. Because they only need a very small top up.

 

Remember, plug in and go to the loo, unlike petrol station, don't need to hold the plug for it to charge.

13 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Remember, plug in and go to the loo, unlike petrol station, don't need to hold the plug for it to charge.

 

When refuelling from empty i put the fuel cap into the handle so i don't have to hold it. It cuts off when full. But there isn't enough time to go for a coffee or the loo

Here is perhaps another angle that has been overlooked, with ICE we are all used to having to go to a garage to get our fuel, so maybe the lack of home charging for a huge slice of the population is not the dealbreaker? Maybe it is a combination of the higher costs in the first instance, the high cost of using public chargers, the speed of the chargers, and the higher insurance costs? 

 

Then there is maybe the fear factor, fear of being locked out of or in if the electrics fail which has been known, fear about the battery life, we all know that batteries do expire after a while, whereas an ICE, if serviced correctly will do hundreds of thousands of miles and not suffer the same degree of degradation in range or power that a battery does.

 

Speaking of being locked in or out of a car, manufacturers have not helped in this regard with the rise of push button door mechanisms they build-into their cars just because they can. In the video that @Stonekeeperposted the other day of the Rolls Royce Spectre, which has this feature as do many other EV cars, this needs to be stopped now forever. I know that for people in the car they have to build-in manual emergency door handles, but the fact is, that people get used to the push button operation and then when the times that they need to get out in an emergency and the power has gone, they panic and forget that there is an emergency handle. That said there are some EV's that do not have that emergency escape system for the rear seat occupants.  

 

 

 

Edited 23 February, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

4 hours ago, Rooted said:

.  Or any car that needs the left hand using a touch screen.

 

The new Mini cooper ev has air con controls on the touchscreen. So will you not upgrade when the time comes

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 February, 20242 yr by Stonekeeper

Kia recommend you don't keep charging it up at every opportunity?

 

 

https://www.kiavictoria.ca/seven-biggest-mistakes-people-make-with-their-ev-battery-that-will-cost-you/

@Stonekeeper  I got the MINI with almost no range because there was no way I was having a Chinese built new one. I wanted what they were now.  No Speedo in front other than the optional heads up.  (I have a heads up now and turned off.).  Cloth dash and various other nonesense.  I will buy one the last of the Clubmans if I am getting a car in 3 years or one to replace my Suzuki.   The Countryman is horrible as well and I suspect the Aceman will be as well which is going to be a shame.     Ps.  Muppet reviewers should mention the right handed people and issues when right hand drive cars arrive.   

Edited 23 February, 20242 yr by Rooted

MINI and BMW i-drive perfect as left hand falls to it and the back buttons etc.  Dead easy and no need to touch a screen when driving.   This rear seat space about a 3 door is a nonesense.  You know if you want a 2 seater with occasional 3rd seat..   more room is in their imagination.    Why would you only want a small car for around a city if Johnny no mates.    This is the issue, company cars full of emptiness.  

Edited 23 February, 20242 yr by Rooted

There is a lot of car production linked or tied to China

 

https://www.automotivemanufacturingsolutions.com/regions/china-european-us-and-japanese-vehicle-manufacturers-rebalance-production-and-supply-chains/44066.article

China is not the issue.  

Nor software. It is the crap coming in this car.  Noises etc.  this coming Mini has got issues otherwise they would be getting to drive ones by now. 

Edited 23 February, 20242 yr by Rooted

Latest BMW I9 operating  system

 

 

Everything new is not better.  Eg VW keep introduction crap.    Always showing left hand drive cars.  Or in a right hand drive a car stopped with the person using their right hand...

 

Edited 23 February, 20242 yr by Rooted

51 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

Kia recommend you don't keep charging it up at every opportunity?

 

 

https://www.kiavictoria.ca/seven-biggest-mistakes-people-make-with-their-ev-battery-that-will-cost-you/

What a strange and contradicting advice.

"The general rule of thumb is to plug in and charge whenever you can, but not every time you drive. "

 

My guess is someone who don't understand battery degradation trying to say don't keep doing small cycles at extreme SoC. Don't charge to 100% and drive 10 miles for the day and charge up again, effectively keeping it at extreme SoC.

 

But tests have shown small charge cycles near middle of the voltage range does not accelerate degradation, it is actually preferred charge practice.

(source: https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries)

 

I generally use 65-40% for my 60 miles commute and I do plug it in daily without thinking, just rely on in-car charge limiter and timer to keep it at 65% for my next commute. Bump it up for weekends if needed. It doesn't need overthinking, just make it a habit of plugging in.

Yes, I hate the idea of touch screens in cars, they are fine when stationary but even using the radio on mine while driving is a nightmare. Just changing a station the other day, the touch spot for the station I wanted is about 1 sq inch, when I went to do it, a pothole jarred through the car and instead of changing stations, the whole screen display was sent scrolling left. Never happens when you have actual buttons or knobs to interact with and the newer cars have almost all the controls done via the central screen.

 

Its as that YouTuber that everyone berates says, (Geoff buys Cars) modern cars are just accidents waiting to happen, so too is having the speedo reading on the central screen and not in front of the drivers so they can keep their eyes on the road.

Edited 23 February, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

Latest BMW I9 operating  system

 

 

That is just crap, try and use it if you're wearing gloves etc.

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/07/ethiopia-banning-non-electric-car-imports/

https://www.arenaev.com/ethiopia_is_ready_to_ban_ice_vehicles_immediately-news-3101.php

 

Ethiopia has completely banned import of all ICE vehicles last month. Simple, straight to the point.

 

 

Hmm, it seems the situation in Ethiopia is not quite as clear-cut as you first thought. Reading those 2 links, it emerges that they are getting sick and tired of continually rising fuel cost for liquid fuel and also that the country is being used as a dumping ground for other people's out of date vehicles that no longer meet the latest standards for most civilised countries and also that most of the 2 million vehicles on their roads are over 20 years old.

 

They have not yet banned the imports, but are seriously considering doing so, according to the articles. They are considering introducing emission testing and vehicles that fail those tests will be banned from further servicing and must be removed from the road.

19 hours ago, wyx087 said:

The biggest gathering I've been is about 10 years ago at Bristol balloon festival, the final night had 250,000 people attending according to the loud speaker person.

Just a small point, I assume that the above is what you can remember of the event? I say that because I have always been attracted to hot air balloons, particularly when they do the mass evening burns with them all glowing in the twilight. I thought that it might be an idea to finally cross off one of the items on my bucket list and go and see it live.

 

While researching this on the official website FAQ (bristolballoonfiesta.co.uk) it seems that is a completely free event and only need to pay for car parking at the launch site at Ashton Court, so any figure would be purely guesswork whereas RIAT can tell by how many actual tickets have been sold. Looking at various reports and news coverage of the balloon fest, it seems that the city estimated that the event could see a record 100,000 in spectators over the 3 days in 2024. While clearly not as big as RIAT, but still a big event, but RIAT is just 1 small airfield with extremely limited and poor road access.

 

 

 

Edited 23 February, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher