10 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher  I know you are retired and unlikely to be driving after 2035. 

Maybe best not get an ulcer bothering about stuff that will never affect you. 

 

If we put our fingers in our ears and shut our eyes it will not happen. 

So that what, bars me from having a point of view😒

Vauxhall is one of those brands that have people getting new cars and them never getting to the end of an agreement, the car is back at a dealers long before that.

That is what comes with targeting younger people with cars that are over priced but look like monthlies are cheap.

They get to know the car is crap and want something better. 

 

@Graham Butcher  you can have as many points of view as you like best have plenty while you can.  All about the banter.

?

Have you tried an EV yet, or do you ever intend to? 

 

 

VW partnering with Chinese car manufacturers or even those from the USA is not 'simply clever'.

 

 

Edited 12 June, 20241 yr by Ootohere

35 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

If you actually read my earlier post you will see that I actually said what the presumptions were as I did not know just how much the final payment would be, but for the sake of argument I assumed that after 4 years for the ICE, it then became yours, and at the of 5 years the EV became yours. Given that in both cases the month payments were IDENTICAL, therefore the EV did cost more to purchase with or without the final down payment, the EV was going to cost around 25% more than the ICE car.

 

You love to twist things don't you to suit your point of view right down to drives and home charging etc at every opportunity.

You love to presume don’t you. Adding nothing to a topic. There is zero twisting from my end, I didn’t presume anything, only pointing out the bleeding obvious on PCP: it is only 25% if ICE don’t own a car for year 5. 
 

I’ve never ever said EV is currently suitable for non driveway owners. So with 10+ year of ICE sales ahead of us, why are we not focusing on getting those low hanging fruits?
 

My message has never changed: driveway + average car use = EV as default choice. Simples. For some, it involves changing some ways of thinking, for example total cost of ownership, automatic plug in every night just like smart phones, range requirement to be more realistic, etc. The cars and trunk road rapid charging infrastructure are now excellent. Only barrier is in driveway owner’s minds. 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

 

Do you need to think about plugging your phone every night or there is a cable at bedside table and you do it everyday without thinking? 

 

 

I treat my phone the same way I do my car - filling up as and when needed - so I plug it in when needed when the phone tells me the battery has dropped below a certain level - no thinking required and no remembering either.

 

Petrol £280.43 Total £24,833.36 to own

 

 

Electric £280.38 £29,969.14 to own

 

20% dearer?

@skomaz different strokes for different folks.  Different phone types and charge / use times. 

I always plug in my mobile to charge while driving as i have been caught before with phones not fully charged or charged enough for what ever i end up needing it to do, 

or where i might end up being, stuck at a roadside or charging bay. 

 

I tend to do the same with EV,s or Electric Bikes, full charge and know that any change of plan or emergency is within whatever limit.

When i get places in an EV i like it to be charged incase of the need to get back.   99 year old mum and all that kind of thing. 

Edited 12 June, 20241 yr by Ootohere

Whereas with my Superb (or any other ICE) I don’t need to think about the state of charge. Even if I’m down to half a tank I can still do best part of a 300 mile round trip without  thinking about it. And if I do need more fuel it takes minutes. 
 

Many months I may fill up once and that does me for the month with plenty of spare range available. 
 

As I think I said previously I want a vehicle that suits me and not me have to adapt greatly to the vehicle. 
 

With the current state of EVs I would have to adapt, maybe that will change at some point in the future but until then (for me at least) fossil fuels rule although I am a bit of a nerd and I love the technology that’s coming out. 

 

5 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Petrol £280.43 Total £24,833.36 to own

 

 

Electric £280.38 £29,969.14 to own

 

20% dearer?

Great, thank you! 
 

There is much lower APR on the electric and bigger contributions. It’s clear which powertrain the manufacturer want to shift. 
 

Yes, in this example, if bought at the end, around 20% dearer. ~£5000. Need to drive ~50,000 miles from home charging to recoup. 

@Winston_Woof  i doubt any that post on here, or very many that read the stuff have not had ICE vehicles and know about putting fuel in. 

 

Oopnorth some of us keep fuel tanks pretty full all the time when parked up.

That old thing about condensation and cold weather and how hygroscopic it is even when winter formulation is delivered between late October & March.

Old habits die hard!

Edited 12 June, 20241 yr by Ootohere

59 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Petrol £280.43 Total £24,833.36 to own

 

 

Electric £280.38 £29,969.14 to own

 

20% dearer?

What I found to be very interesting here is that the final payment after Year 4 for the ICE and year 5 for the EV is just I knew it would be, is almost identical, so when I said ignore the final payment, just work on the 4 year and the 5 years is good enough for a final comparison in the respective cost of the ICE vs EV, so why does wyx087 feel it is always necessary to stir the pot creating loads of bad feelings when it is not required?? 

Edited 12 June, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

8 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

What I found to be very interesting here is that the final payment after Year 4 for the ICE and year 5 for the EV is just I knew it would be, is almost identical, so when I said ignore the final payment, just work on the 4 year and the 5 years is good enough for a final comparison in the respective cost of the ICE vs EV, so why does wyx087 feel it is always necessary to stir the pot creating loads of bad feelings when it is not required?? 

 

Are you getting an EV, Graham or in the market for one or even considering considering getting one? I thought you were happy with your Superb? 

15 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

wyx087 feel it is always necessary to stir the pot creating loads of bad feelings when it is not required?? 

Me? I had only been asking the bleeding obvious and pointing out assumptions. 
 

I think you are actually the one “stirring the pot”. If you don’t like my points, raise actual counter points please. 

2 minutes ago, @Lee said:

 

Are you getting an EV, Graham or in the market for one or even considering considering getting one? I thought you were happy with your Superb? 

As always, keeping my options open. Yes I'm happy with my Superb, but I could be tempted by a PHEV version if I think I can afford it or my circumstances change, I have a number of work pensions that I have not yet cashed in as the "B" event decimated their value, and I'm waiting for them to slowly recover. I always look before I jump over a wall, and hence my engagement in this thread and I enjoy watching other peoples blogs about their EVs, and I'm learning from them. Besides, as an ex electrical engineer, I have a keen interest in electric traction.

 

As regard to fires, again as an ex works fireman, I have an interest there as well and contrary to what some might think, I know EV's don't normally burst into spontaneous combustion, I also know ICE cars catch fire more often, that is obvious as they vastly outweigh the numbers of EV's on the road. But there can be no denying that an EV fire is altogether far more serious and extremely dangerous and very hard to put out. Full-time fireman are not concerned about ICE fires, but they are about EV fires and that goes for all the world's fireman, so if they are concerned, then we should not ignore that.

31 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Me? I had only been asking the bleeding obvious and pointing out assumptions. 
 

I think you are actually the one “stirring the pot”. If you don’t like my points, raise actual counter points please. 

What and keep this silly tit-for-tat up, no, thank you. Besides I had set out the parameters and the details that Stonekeeper provided, fell nicely into line with what I said.

Edited 12 June, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

51 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I could be tempted by a PHEV version if I think I can afford it or my circumstances change

As in move into somewhere with driveway? Because PHEV absolutely MUST be plugged in almost every day with only 30 miles electric range. Your daily driving profile must fit that 30 miles range. Otherwise you wouldn't get the cost saving benefits.

 

I personally think Toyota 1999 hybrid is currently best way forward for people who can't charge at home. Still operates like ICE car but with benefits of EV, such as engine stop but can still run AC, electric powered at low speeds.

6 hours ago, wyx087 said:

It is true that EV used to have a small premium in purchasing price. That is no longer the case depend on vehicle and will soon be the reverse. 

 

EV are a LOT cheaper to run when charge at home, hence my driveway comment. 

 

Most people don't drive mega miles daily, so EV would not inconvenience most people's daily lives. It would actually be an improvement not having to think about refuelling during daily use. 

 

Apart from the social divide on having a driveway, which is not a big one. What other factors made you comment on "financially secure" aspect? To me, it feels like a very strange comment built up from conformational bias. 

 

I have friends from all walks of life and those that are in a less fortunate financial position drive ICE cars (I have several friends who live in Ancoats and Hulme in Manchester, for instance), those that have taken early retirement or have well paid jobs often have an EV in the household (these people are not car enthusiasts it has to be said). Hence, I see a divide that is partial attributable to personal wealth: also none of these friends are self-employed and are in a position to take advantage of the corporation tax relief). 

 

As for mega miles, my best friend has a daughter up in Scotland and travels often with her husband to visit. She has had several Mini convertibles and I've asked if she fancies an electric version. She tells me the range of the small cars she likes (Fiat, Minis etc) do not have range to visit her almost off grid daughter and get her to the Lake District and back in a day. She is not happy to take the chance of struggling to find charge points (some single women I know don't like the idea of having to go and sit in service stations on their own). So for now, petrol it is. 

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

....... Because PHEV absolutely MUST be plugged in almost every day with only 30 miles electric range. Your daily driving profile must fit that 30 miles range. Otherwise you wouldn't get the cost saving benefits.

 

 

 

Actually, this is a common misconception.

 

If I travel to London for instance, a journey I take several times a year and approximately 240 miles (I do it in one non-stop trip of course). I can increase my fuel efficiency by many mpg if I fully charge my PHEV first and - this is the important bit - use the Sat Nav. This enables the car to meter out the charge to maximise its efficiency. Cruising on a motorway is a weak point for EVs, whereas in heavy traffic, it plays to their strengths. My PHEV can keep some charge available for when I get to London, for instance. It works well and the car usually depletes its charge with a mile or two of my destination. Without using the Sat Nav the car tends to use the charge at the beginning and also on the motorway, which means you drag around all that ruddy extra battery weight for no benefit. Once in London I'm generally screwed, as they say, as charging becomes a nightmare and is generally not feasible, so the return trip is done in pure petrol mode. I've explained the scenario before, so won't bore with my life story on this matter, again.

 

PHEVS are the most complicated of all cars and you have to give them as much information as possible, if you want to maximise their efficiency. I would never buy a secondhand one, they are far too complex. For instance, my car can run with ..

 

• Front EV motor
• Rear EV Motor
• Front and rear EV Motors combined
• Petrol engine
• Petrol engine and front EV motor
• Petrol engine and rear EV motor
• Petrol engine and both EV Motors

it can recharge from...

• Type 2/mains supply
• Front EV motor
• Rear EV motor 
• Brake regen using a combination of the above
• or the petrol engine can recharge as you drive (you can set for 3 different levels of total charge). 

It can run in

• 'Pure electric', 
• Pure petrol
• 'Hybrid' combination
• 'Sport' where ever thing can run simultaneously
• '4x4' where the electric motors run almost all the time and the petrol occasionally helps out. 

Nuts! Dread to think the problems some poor sod will have with this car in 10 years time. 

Edited 12 June, 20241 yr by Lady Elanore

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

As in move into somewhere with driveway? Because PHEV absolutely MUST be plugged in almost every day with only 30 miles electric range. Your daily driving profile must fit that 30 miles range. Otherwise you wouldn't get the cost saving benefits.

 

I personally think Toyota 1999 hybrid is currently best way forward for people who can't charge at home. Still operates like ICE car but with benefits of EV, such as engine stop but can still run AC, electric powered at low speeds.

No, I live in a HA house like millions of others. I never had the breaks to get out of social housing, again like so many others in society, we are split into the haves and have-nots.

17 minutes ago, Lady Elanore said:

 

Actually, this is a common misconception.

 

If I travel to London for instance, a journey I take several times a year and approximately 240 miles (I do it in one non-stop trip of course). I can increase my fuel efficiency by many mpg if I fully charge my PHEV first and - this is the important bit - use the Sat Nav. This enables the car to meter out the charge to maximise its efficiency. Cruising on a motorway is a weak point for EVs, whereas in heavy traffic, it plays to their strengths. My PHEV can keep some charge available for when I get to London, for instance. It works well and the car usually depletes its charge with a mile or two of my destination. Without using the Sat Nav the car tends to use the charge at the beginning and also on the motorway, which means you drag around all that ruddy extra battery weight for no benefit. Once in London I'm generally screwed, as they say, as charging becomes a nightmare and is generally not feasible, so the return trip is done in pure petrol mode. I've explained the scenario before, so won't bore with my life story on this matter, again.

 

 

 

can you not set the car to never let the battery drop below a certain percentage in the settings?

 

So when charging is not available the engine charges it.

 

 

Edited 12 June, 20241 yr by Stonekeeper

6 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

can you not set the car to never let the battery drop below a certain percentage in the settings?

 

So when charging is not available the engine does it.

 

 

 

 

Yes, the car has three levels of charge you can set (it can hammer your fuel economy though). I've updated my post where I mentioned the bare-bones engine recharge bit.

24 minutes ago, Lady Elanore said:

I can increase my fuel efficiency by many mpg if I fully charge my PHEV first

As I said, the key with PHEV is regularly plugging it in. Although I didn't realise fully charged can hugely improve ICE efficiency, not just about EV range. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

There ought to comparisons of PHEV to '99 style hybrids.

 

Here is one, didn't say how charged is the PHEV

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46414049/toyota-prius-vs-prius-prime-test-results/

 

Another one reporting on other studies, where if not plugged in, bad economy:

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/manufacturer-news/2021/03/03/phev-models-found-to-be-61-less-efficient-in-real-world-use

 

Advise in Which more or less lines up what I've said: PHEV is for driveway-owners, much be able to charge regularly to get the benefits.

https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/plug-in-hybrid-cars-use-more-fuel-than-official-figures-claim-aIpyB5l2V4A8

37 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Haha, I'm laughing my arse off, but he is absolutely spot on about most of the Tesla drivers and also about the problems with being an early adopter. That said, they are important because they are really the guinea pigs in EVs and possibly by the time people like us get around to getting one, the problems will have been resolved, the range greatly enhanced and battery technology will have advanced to give more power storage, lighter, smaller, faster charging and safer all round.

4 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

As I said, the key with PHEV is regularly plugging it in. Although I didn't realise fully charged can hugely improve ICE efficiency, not just about EV range. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

There ought to comparisons of PHEV to '99 style hybrids.

 

Here is one, didn't say how charged is the PHEV

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46414049/toyota-prius-vs-prius-prime-test-results/

 

Another one reporting on other studies, where if not plugged in, bad economy:

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/manufacturer-news/2021/03/03/phev-models-found-to-be-61-less-efficient-in-real-world-use

 

Advise in Which more or less lines up what I've said: PHEV is for driveway-owners, much be able to charge regularly to get the benefits.

https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/plug-in-hybrid-cars-use-more-fuel-than-official-figures-claim-aIpyB5l2V4A8

 

 

Driving at 'realistic' motorway speeds (I don't hang around), my PHEV does around 38mpg on pure petrol and maybe 45-50mpg with Hybrid Sat Nav mode engaged (it's not an actual mode, but you get my drift). If you consider that the real world range on battery alone in stop start traffic could be as high as 24 miles per full charge, you would think that it would give, roughly, a 10% help to a 240 mile trip. But the reality is, you get more like a 30+% lift. These are rough figures as it depends on the route used and average speed undertaken. The 3008 I have only has a 42 litre tank, so it's worth doing before I set off on a long trip. 

There are amazing choices of cars and power trains of all flavours on UK roads and available new or used if anyone is changing cars or buying one.

It is really only those that need to go into the ULEZ / LEZ,s or lives in them and has non compliant vehicles that needs to change what they own or drive. 

 

If VW Group had carried on as they planned to with developing Diesel Hybrids but for smaller cars that would have been sensible.

 

An Audi A2 1.2 TDI Hybrid. for Euro 7 emissions. 

 A modernisation of the A2 that really was ahead of it's time but just too expensive for them producing. 

 

There really are too many bigger and bigger passenger cars in the UK and the size and weight being dealt with by electrification or being full BEV.

Bigger batteries to take heavier cars further between charges. 

Capping the Max Speeds available to 100 mph while in the UK on roads.  GPS Limited might just be something to have the Car Importers & manufacturers offering up cars suitable for the UK roads.