@Graham Butcher

He was driving past Shell Recharge & Ionity, BP Pulse & Porsche chargers at various trips in and out of Scotland, and repeating again and again.

He was sometimes spending the night less than 1/2 a mile from 100 + kW chargers.

 

A member here says he knows him.  He is playing a part.  Well true, playing as being a prat. 

Edited 11 June, 20241 yr by Ootohere

37 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

When I share things, I don't just automatically share things I agree with, but I try and share good and bad things so anyone reading this thread can then form a more balanced opinion, hence why I also posted that video of the 430,000 mile Tesla, or have you already forgot that I posted that?

Sorry, I meant to say:

and also stop sharing things with which you know are obviously false, otherwise you are essentially deliberately spreading misinformation.

 

37 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Equally there are also things that could go wrong and sometimes do go wrong with EVs like broken springs or wheel bearings and even faulty electronic control modules, inverters, chargers etc, and even damaged/worn bearings in the drive motor which would almost certainly totally wreck the entire drive assembly as any coming together of the rotor and the stator would cause a catastrophic and very expensive failure to put right. Not forgetting that you still have oil in the reduction drives etc on an EV which also require servicing and changing at set periods of time. So in essence, EVs suffer from mechanical wear and tear just like their ICE counterparts and also all suffer the dreaded tin worm disease.

Springs, wheel bearing, faulty electronic control modules are all problems regardless of powertrain.

Inverters, chargers and drive motor failures are exclusive to EV's, also including hybrids.

Just like some ICE gearbox oil, all EV reduction gear oil are said to be sealed for life, zero service requirement.

So in essence, all powertrain suffer from same mechanical wear and tear if same components were present.

 

However, in earlier cost estimates, we are talking about regular servicing cost, not wear and tear component repair cost.

 

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

Who would pay for that!? 

4 inspections for £2300

 

Tesla doesn't have annual maintenance service requirement:

https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/vehicle-maintenance

 

6 minutes ago, Gaz said:

I could've traded in the GTI and got a larger EV (needed to be able to house a mobility scooter and folding bike in the boot), but I was happier to buy a 14 year old diesel estate, and there'll be a reason for that. 

Obviously someone in the market for a 14 years old car isn't going to find a suitable EV of that age. Car manufacturers really dropped the ball by not electrifying in noughties and too slow to build battery production in the ten's.

 

I'm talking about those who buy new or a few years old. From 2021 and onwards, there's more than enough choices of long range EV to suit all needs. It is my opinion that if situations allow (driveways etc) those buying new ought to think long and hard about not choosing EV and bringing an ICE into the world that will pollute the world for 15+ years.

11 minutes ago, Gaz said:

I have a drive and a garage that I can park right up against.  I've had an e-bike for eight years, and mobility scooters, so I'm clearly not adverse to electrified transport.  I've driven only a handful of EV's and have liked every one, despite going in with the assumption that I won't like them.  I enjoy reading your posts (and others) as you bring some positive context and are a bit of an antidote to a lot of EV negativity.  But when it comes to the next step, I've still not made it past the 'Not just yet' stage.  I could've traded in the GTI and got a larger EV (needed to be able to house a mobility scooter and folding bike in the boot), but I was happier to buy a 14 year old diesel estate, and there'll be a reason for that.  Maybe I'm just a risk averse conservative old dinosaur.  So while not a default, it was a consideration, albeit I remain in the 'Not just yet' fold.

 

Gaz

I think that you sum it up nicely there, for many people and also for me, as I would hope that comes across that I'm not anti EV, despite the fact that I mention the hazard about fire risk with them, as it really is a risk that has yet to be fully addressed in my opinion. We have had many decades to get to grips with fossil fuels and the hazards that they present, we are still in the steep learning curve when it comes to EV's and it seems to me, that it is the older generation who are more hesitant at making that switch from ICE to EV currently. The younger generation are happy to make that switch now.

9 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Obviously someone in the market for a 14 years old car isn't going to find a suitable EV of that age. Car manufacturers really dropped the ball by not electrifying in noughties and too slow to build battery production in the ten's.

I think your right here, if they made electric cars so the consumer had a free choice back then, then by now we would have had many more years of experience under our belts and many of the current issues with EV's would have been resolved and there would be many more of them on the road and then governments desire to decarbonise would better received by the public.

Now we know what the number of BEV,s that will be going on the UK roads or sitting registered and not on the road with new registrations in the UK will be at the least 22%.

There are not going to be manufacturers having more than 78% of ICE cars first registered.

& it will be at least 10% of Light Commercials that will BEV,s. 

 

As it is in the UK the Government Agency , Local Authority & various Tax Payer funded passenger cars should all be required to be replaced by BEV,s as they get replaced.

The Car Parks and Lots where they are kept as fleet vehicles should have enough chargers installed and Wind, Solar & Battery Storage installed. 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Sorry, I meant to say:

and also stop sharing things with which you know are obviously false, otherwise you are essentially deliberately spreading misinformation.

Ok, I don't share anything that I know to be false, just because a person has a different point of view to you, does not automatically make it false.

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Springs, wheel bearing, faulty electronic control modules are all problems regardless of powertrain.

Inverters, chargers and drive motor failures are exclusive to EV's, also including hybrids.

Just like some ICE gearbox oil, all EV reduction gear oil are said to be sealed for life, zero service requirement.

So in essence, all powertrain suffer from same mechanical wear and tear if same components were present.

 

However, in earlier cost estimates, we are talking about regular servicing cost, not wear and tear component repair cost.

These points don't really make any difference to the average person who buys a new car, most will be only be planning to keep the car for maybe 1, 2 or 3 years and then trading it in for a newer model as they don't want any hassle with maintenance costs and possible breakdowns. Most new cars on the road these days, at least here in the UK, is a company car, and they get changed regularly at 3 years. 
Company cars are on a lease contract and all servicing is done as part of that lease deal or, the manufacturer includes 3 years servicing as part of their deal, so in most cases the true cost of servicing is being bourne by the person who buys the car second-hand. 

I'd happily buy one of these if all I did was a regular commute into the city. 

 

 

 

But no way for longer trips, or any EV for that matter. Running costs when you are out and about for several days without access to cheap electricity are not good. Plus when you factor in all the extra overpriced food that gets consumed that includes (all my colleagues who travel similar distances for their jobs, to the mileages that I do), or extra hotel bills because they can't guarantee getting home without charging twice, means it's a dead end for me.

 

Also, why won't  so many Tesla owners see it any other way than their cars being superior??  Clearly, that bubble is bursting (even if the recharge infrastructure is still probably the best for Tesla owners themselves....when available thanks to thoughtless "duff" cars and their owners  ). I can have intelligent conversations with EV owners when at work, about EVs and PHEVs, unless they are Tesla owners. Then, it's Tesla, or nothing! I don't have an axe to grind about EVs, in fact, I have recommended the Hyundai N5 to a presenter looking for a quick EV to replace his ICE car. But Tesla evangelists, give me a break, please!

 

I came up with this handy conversion chart for car owners

 

ICE (petrol and derv) = Omnivore

PHEV = Pescatarian (you want to stop eating meat, but just can't quite go all the way)

EV = Vegetarian 

Tesla owners = Vegans 

 

Anyhoo, my PHEV is parked up being charged and my V8 needs to go walkies.....

 

 

 

brb

 

 

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Lady Elanore said:

I'd happily buy one of these if all I did was a regular commute into the city. 

 

 

 

But no way for longer trips, or any EV for that matter. Running costs when you are out and about for several days without access to cheap electricity are not good. Plus when you factor in all the extra overpriced food that gets consumed that includes (all my colleagues who travel similar distances for their jobs, to the mileages that I do), or extra hotel bills because they can't guarantee getting home without charging twice, means it's a dead end for me.

 

Also, why won't  so many Tesla owners see it any other way than their cars being superior??  Clearly, that bubble is bursting (even if the recharge infrastructure is still probably the best for Tesla owners themselves....when available thanks to thoughtless "duff" cars and their owners  ). I can have intelligent conversations with EV owners when at work, about EVs and PHEVs, unless they are Tesla owners. Then, it's Tesla, or nothing! I don't have an axe to grind about EVs, in fact, I have recommended the Hyundai N5 to a presenter looking for a quick EV to replace his ICE car. But Tesla evangelists, give me a break, please!

 

I came up with this handy conversion chart for car owners

 

ICE (petrol and derv) = Omnivore

PHEV = Pescatarian (you want to stop eating meat, but just can't quite go all the way)

EV = Vegetarian 

Tesla owners = Vegans 

 

Anyhoo, my PHEV is parked up being charged and my V8 needs to go walkies.....

 

 

 

brb

 

I used to have the car that this is based on, the Isetta 250 and just as Johnny says, there is plenty of legroom, and I'm 6ft 4". I used it to go to and from work every day, but it never had the boot space as that was occupied by the single cylinder petrol engine and fuel tank. I really enjoyed that car at the time.

 

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Sorry, I meant to say:

and also stop sharing things with which you know are obviously false, otherwise you are essentially deliberately spreading misinformation.

 

Springs, wheel bearing, faulty electronic control modules are all problems regardless of powertrain.

Inverters, chargers and drive motor failures are exclusive to EV's, also including hybrids.

Just like some ICE gearbox oil, all EV reduction gear oil are said to be sealed for life, zero service requirement.

So in essence, all powertrain suffer from same mechanical wear and tear if same components were present.

 

However, in earlier cost estimates, we are talking about regular servicing cost, not wear and tear component repair cost.

 

Who would pay for that!? 

4 inspections for £2300

 

Tesla doesn't have annual maintenance service requirement:

https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/vehicle-maintenance

 

 

 

Do all Tesla owners believe that this

 

 

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/service/annual_service_inspection_checklist_en_eu.pdf

 

Is totally unnecessary and a waste of time?

 

Will they wait for the MOT system to address the issues that may arise?

 

 

You have successfully put me off buying a second hand one if that is the majority view.

 

Brake discs and suspension/steering parts that never wear?

 

Brake fluid that lasts forever?

@Stonekeeper I also seem to recall that there have been incidents where the brakes have become seized due to the excessive use of aggressive regen braking, meaning that the brakes are not used, thus are less than ideal in an emergency.

Edited 11 June, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Ok, I don't share anything that I know to be false, just because a person has a different point of view to you, does not automatically make it false.

This certainly reads like you think the Dave youtuber is spreading misinformation. We all know that ICE doesn't fail after 150k miles, that is FUD against ICE, yet it was said in the video and you shared it.

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Equally there is a whole load of guff sprouted about ICE by EV owners, for instance Dave Takes It On, says that ICE cars are having engines failures after 100k miles and after about 150k catastrophic engine failure is on the cards, as he claims in this video.

 

 

So how would Dave explain this Audi A4 with 540,000 miles on the clock? Yes the car does have some faults, like a broken coil spring, but then again so would almost any other car of that mileage, I hear that Tesla's are renowned for broken springs?

 

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

Do all Tesla owners believe that this

 

 

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/service/annual_service_inspection_checklist_en_eu.pdf

 

Is totally unnecessary and a waste of time?

 

Will they wait for the MOT system to address the issues that may arise?

 

 

You have successfully put me off buying a second hand one if that is the majority view.

 

Brake discs and suspension/steering parts that never wear?

 

Brake fluid that lasts forever?

Do have a look on the list, which inspection are actually necessary and can't be diagnosed by the car automatically?

 

(also, I think your list is for older Model S and X)

 

Quote

 

Check codes - can be remotely done

Clean and lube panoramic roof - not on 3 or Y

Clean and lube hood release latch - do it as when necessary

Inspect and clean radiator - I've had full dealership service history cars with radiator still full of leaves

Install latest firmware - all remote OTA now

Key fob battery - not on 3/y

Map update - OTA update

Thermal system test - can be checked remotely

Torque suspension fasteners - done with wheel alignment check as when needed

Battery coolant level - auto monitor and remote check

Battery enclosure - anyone can eye it by looking under the car

Brake fluid level - mentioned in my link

Brake pipes and hoses - yes, can't easily DIY this one

Charge port - it works every day

Coolant leaks - coolant level is already monitored

Doors/hood/horn/interior/lighting/seatbelt - Easily done by user

Brake pad thickness is rarely a problem on EV's

Suspension, subframe component - yes, should keep an eye every so often

 

 

So only 2 are actually required professional inspection on lift: suspension, subframe and brake system. I personally think today's car can last 3 years without inspection on those. MOT can then take over. This is how my Nissan Leaf had been maintained for the last 4 years: checks via MOT, I DIY simple and clean jobs (cabin filter, battery health tracking, fluid checks).

 

Can you find an up-to-date sheet for Model 3 and Y? I don't believe there's such list beyond the link I provided.

 

Tesla publishes DIY guide for their cars, covers most of those list except the 2 areas I highlighted:

https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/diy/modely/en_us/index.html

 

This is the official published service manual for MY on service items: https://service.tesla.com/docs/ModelY/ServiceManual/en-us/GUID-B8F74731-ACEA-4CEC-9516-EF6DF9AB9D9A.html

 

 

8 hours ago, wyx087 said:

 

 

Indeed, for people with driveway, EV should be the default first consideration now.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely not! No way. If your circumstances fit with an EV then having a driveway is a boon, but I have a driveway and won't touch an EV with a barge pole until I retire, or my workload reduces as I tail off into retirement. At SKY many of the Production managers have been given, or are expected to drive, an EV. Generally, they consider them a pain the ar$e. Travelling a distance to be on site and fulfill a 12 hour day, necessitates extra 'overnights', which is more time not spent at home. It also means they are often late on site because of the typical charge issues with travelling long distance at rush hour (which is several hours for many places these days). Partly caused by long distance and sometimes caused by travelling from one job to another and so on. My industry consists of a lot of very long hour days and extensive driving. Most road warriors are sticking to ICE and those that jump, do so because of the Corporation tax offset allowance (we almost all work as limited companies these days).

 

If you can accommodate an EV into your lifestyle and it makes financial sense for you, then go for it. Otherwise, you would be a fool to be dragged into the EV world for "fear of missing out". I accept that some will buy an EV for genuine altruistic reasons and put up with the inconvenience, but in my experience they are few and far between. 

 

I would also like to know if anyone has done a survey to find if EV drivers are putting on more weight than ICE drivers? 

@wyx087 you know perfectly well why I posted that video by Dave Takes It On, he is 100% pro EV which I don't have a problem with, but I do have a problem when people have a selective memory / reaction about things. If a YouTuber or anyone else posts anything about EV which you and/or anyone else disagrees with, then you all jump up and start shouting that it is misinformation, but when one of your own fellow EV enthusiasts starts to spread misinformation then that's considered to be OK? Really?

In fact he has just released yet another video just 5 hours ago where he even doubles down on that same misinformation in a video where he is talking about the various EV battery options and their expected lifespan among other things. 

 

Now will you actively call him out for the misleading information that he is putting out there? I seriously doubt that.

 

He is also talking about the fire risk associated with EV's and comparing the data with that for ICE and is even calling a ICE fuel tank a bomb FFS.

 

Nobody I know is saying that EVs catch fire more than ICE, plainly stupid to say that when ICE vastly out number the numbers of EVs on the road and have been around for many years and many of the ICE cars that catch fire are considerably older than the oldest EV car and is therefore more likely to be developing faults which could result in a fire.  What people are saying and this is also all the world's fire brigades is when the batteries go into thermal runaway they pose a much greater risk with all the toxic fumes and also the huge amount of toxic water that is just allowed to soak into the ground as there is no way to contain it and also the fact that Lithium-ion fires are really difficult to extinguish whereas fossil fuel fires are much easier and quicker to deal with, and yet I have not heard a pro EV YouTuber actually admit this very simple fact.

 

Am I the only person who can see the problems and admit that they exist on both ICE and EV cars, but one is still causing major issues in regard to safety if things go wrong while the other we have decades of experience and know just what to do?  Geez.

If I was going to buy an EV, then it does make more sense to buy second-hand. The generally greater depreciation currently enjoyed by EVs does make them pretty good value for prospective owners. I doubt the battery life will cause too many problems for EV fans, altough it is possible that insurance premiums may be a little higher owing to increased repair bills. From what I've read the increasing use of Giga factories and their build techniques, will drive the cost of making the body/chassis down by around 30%, but this is offset to some degree by repair cost going up by an estimated 30% as the average repair is more difficult. 

 

Earlier this year this came out. 

 

https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/news/2024/01/26/used-ev-prices-fall-amid-demand-and-depreciation-concerns/

 

To be fair, I can see that the 'Muricans (Hertz) would drop lease EVs quicker, owing to potentially the huge distance that many have to travel between cities and states (constant high speed driving is not playing to the EVs strongest suit and also the cost of their ICE fuel is still comparatively cheap. Overall, it seems to suggest that buying new EVs is not the night and day money windfall that is often suggested, whereas the second-hand market of EVs is where the real value for money stuff is. My friend and colleague that bought a relatively young Taycan (fabulous build quality) for what was approaching half it's initial purchase price seems to have acquired a 'steal', although he spends his life running around and getting up early to go chase chargers when working away from home. 

 

Here's some rough comparisons for last year's ICE v EV depreciation (I did laugh at the F type depreciation figure)

 

https://choosemycar.com/resources/buying-and-selling-tips/ev-drop

 

and the lovely Ginny giving a heads-up on cheap second-hand EVs (even if some of the figures are frightening)

 

 

Edited 11 June, 20241 yr by Lady Elanore

41 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

but when one of your own fellow EV enthusiasts starts to spread misinformation then that's considered to be OK? Really?

When have I ever condone posting misinformation? In fact, I am saying why are you okay with spreading such FUD from Dave?

 

41 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

In fact he has just released yet another video just 5 hours ago where he even doubles down on that same misinformation

But 5 hours earlier, you said the video posted wasn't misinformation:

5 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Ok, I don't share anything that I know to be false

 

 

55 minutes ago, Lady Elanore said:

Absolutely not! No way. If your circumstances fit with an EV then having a driveway is a boon, but I have a driveway and won't touch an EV with a barge pole until I retire, or my workload reduces as I tail off into retirement.

Obviously EV isn't for everyone even with a driveway. I think this is better worded:

7 hours ago, wyx087 said:

It is my opinion that if situations allow (driveways etc) those buying new ought to think long and hard about not choosing EV

 

Nice life story though

7 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Obviously EV isn't for everyone even with a driveway. I think this is better worded:

 

Nice life story though

 

 

Sadly, those Prod Managers have less of a life now...

15 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

When have I ever condone posting misinformation? In fact, I am saying why are you okay with spreading such FUD from Dave?

 

But 5 hours earlier, you said the video posted wasn't misinformation:

 

 

For the record, I actually called him out on this both in my post which I used as an example, as you always wanted evidence to back up my claims, so I gave you that evidence. And for the record, I also went into his comment section of his channel on that video and called him out on the bogus information he was spreading. He has not replied, I wonder why??

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

This certainly reads like you think the Dave youtuber is spreading misinformation. We all know that ICE doesn't fail after 150k miles, that is FUD against ICE, yet it was said in the video and you shared it.

 

Do have a look on the list, which inspection are actually necessary and can't be diagnosed by the car automatically?

 

(also, I think your list is for older Model S and X)

 

 

So only 2 are actually required professional inspection on lift: suspension, subframe and brake system. I personally think today's car can last 3 years without inspection on those. MOT can then take over. This is how my Nissan Leaf had been maintained for the last 4 years: checks via MOT, I DIY simple and clean jobs (cabin filter, battery health tracking, fluid checks).

 

Can you find an up-to-date sheet for Model 3 and Y? I don't believe there's such list beyond the link I provided.

 

Tesla publishes DIY guide for their cars, covers most of those list except the 2 areas I highlighted:

https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/diy/modely/en_us/index.html

 

This is the official published service manual for MY on service items: https://service.tesla.com/docs/ModelY/ServiceManual/en-us/GUID-B8F74731-ACEA-4CEC-9516-EF6DF9AB9D9A.html

 

 

 

DIY servicing and relying on the MOT inspection would alter your comparison figures

 

Only doing the cabin filter and not the recommended schedule and only using home charging cost significantly changes the outcome.

 

And only works if the car never leaves an area within range of home and return.

 

One car would have full service history the other would be listed with none on resale.

 

Not a like for like comparison

 

My figure for the value of the fuel was to show many will never recoup the extra cost of the EV vehicle.

 

The Octavia Boot with seats up is bigger than the Karoq when i looked and the Tesla model y long range was the car you quoted (talking of range) which initiated my post so there was no need to change the cars to bring the ev costs down further.

 

 

At the moment the Tesla Y LR is probably the only car that could meet my requirements, but it is too expensive and i actually don't like the way it looks, the limited colour choice and it's build quality.

when there are EVs on the (used) market that can do the equivalent of 40mpg+ (and a range of at least 400 miles) , are less than 5 years old, with up to 50k miles , under £10k (or inflation adjusted equivalent) and in an estate body shape then maybe I would consider one

Currently, for example,  Autotrader has 50 ICE vehicles meeting the above criteria.

Is this a pipe dream?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?body-type=Estate&fuel-consumption=OVER_40&maximum-mileage=50000&postcode=bl35rd&price-to=10000&sort=relevance&year-from=2019

(no that's not my postcode)

Edited 12 June, 20241 yr by Winston_Woof

Motability own about 5% of BEV,s in the UK & around 13% of new cars registered in the UK each year were bought by them.

 

They now offer for lease to customers over 115 BEV,s and no doubt the manufacturers are offering them better a better deals on new BEV,s to help them get to their 22% first Registrations.

The Nil or Low Advance Payments are certainly good, and the Free Installation of a Home Charger for those that can have one.

There are those that have got a BEV from them and then regret that once they experience Public charging with them.

Remember that not all leasing are drivers of the vehicles.  Not all will be doing the charging of the vehicles.

 

It might be & is for many just £11 a day to have your car sitting available, no other expenses other than the Electricity or Petrol / Diesel.

No Insurance, Servicing or VED to pay.  Even some money back if the car is in a good condition after 3 or 5 years, or when handed back.

 

34,000 BEV,s & 83,000 Hybrids at the time of this.  (They should really say how many PHEV,s from that 83,000 Hybrids.)

 

Edited 12 June, 20241 yr by Ootohere

9 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

Sadly, those Prod Managers have less of a life now...

What is the percentage of driving population that actually do require the kind of mileage on a daily basis? 

 

I have never said EV is suitable for every single person, "if situations allow". Key is evaluating it as a viable option first. 

 

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

For the record, I actually called him out on this both in my post which I used as an example, as you always wanted evidence to back up my claims, so I gave you that evidence. And for the record, I also went into his comment section of his channel on that video and called him out on the bogus information he was spreading. 

I always want to see evidences of claims to facts. 

Calling out youtuber to be spreading misinformation is not factual claims, there is a difference. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

DIY servicing and relying on the MOT inspection would alter your comparison figures

 

Only doing the cabin filter and not the recommended schedule and only using home charging cost significantly changes the outcome.

Look at DIY guide I posted and the service manual. The list you posted is not recommended schedule servicing for Model 3/Y. 

 

9 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

And only works if the car never leaves an area within range of home and return.

 

One car would have full service history the other would be listed with none on resale.

 

Not a like for like comparison

I used 3p/mile whereas charging at home is 2-2.5p/mile. There is built-in headroom for public charging. This means about 10% of miles could be public charged. This is entirely realistic because for most people, going 100 miles away from home (2+ hour drive each direction) is quite rare event. 

 

"Full service history" relates to what is required by manufacturer. If the manufacturer encourages DIY filter change, why is that not full service history? 

 

It is like-for-like comparison because that is how most people drives, that is what is required by the manufacturer. 

 

9 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

The Octavia Boot with seats up is bigger than the Karoq when i looked and the Tesla model y long range was the car you quoted (talking of range) which initiated my post so there was no need to change the cars to bring the ev costs down further.

Fair enough. But to be comparable, you have to use true cost of the vehicle. Not inflated Autotrader advert price that no one will pay. 

1 hour ago, Winston_Woof said:

when there are EVs on the (used) market that can do the equivalent of 40mpg+ (and a range of at least 400 miles) , are less than 5 years old, with up to 50k miles , under £10k (or inflation adjusted equivalent) and in an estate body shape then maybe I would consider one

Currently, for example,  Autotrader has 50 ICE vehicles meeting the above criteria.

The estate part may not be possible moving forward. The world have been pushed toward bloated crossover/SUV. 

 

There is 149 EV's with 300l or larger boot, no body type limitation but otherwise fit your criteria: 

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?bootSizeValues=Medium&fuel-type=Electric&maximum-mileage=50000&postcode=bl35rd&price-to=10000&sort=relevance&year-from=2019

 

For comparison, there's 1725 for 40mpg+ ICE. 

 

Used EV market is still not there yet, due to poor EV investment by car manufacturers in the 2010's. Before ~2021, choices of EV is quite limited. Hence choices of £10k EV now is quite limited. 

 

But range isn't everything. Please do consider how much range is actually needed for your personal needs. How much range do you actually need 90% of the time? 95% of the time? Is the rapid charging speed suitable for the other 10%?