Repeat head gasket failure

[areed]

Hi all, 

 

6 years ago the head gasket on my Felicia failed, and I was able to replace it thanks to the guidance of these forums.  Since the replacement, I've made sure that the car has never overheated or run out of coolant, and the coolant has been changed every few years.  All was fine until recently, when the car started losing coolant and generating mayo again. Having taken the head off again, I can see that the replacement gasket has disintegrated and that there is coolant visible inside three of the pushrod ways, as well as inside several of the head bolt holes.

 

I'd expected it to last a bit better than this, does anyone have any suggestions as to what may have caused it to fail so quickly, or ways to prevent it happening again?

[Thefeliciahacker]

What coolant were you running what brand was the hg? 

[areed]

I think the gasket set was made by Payen, part number on the receipt was DT580 which comes up with a Payen set on Google.

 

Coolant was red G12, 50/50 with DI water

[KenONeill]

Never heard of "Payen" as a company. Quick Google says it's a trade name of Federal Mogul.

[Thefeliciahacker]

2 hours ago, KenONeill said:

Payen

Payen is top notch stuff. 

 

2 hours ago, areed said:

DT580

You mean bt580 yes that was the older variant I got the bt581

[Thefeliciahacker]

In any case I suppose something in you coolant was extremely aggressive 

[Thefeliciahacker]

Here is my gasket payen bt581

[D.FYLAKTOS]

6 hours ago, areed said:

Coolant was red G12, 50/50

 

''original VW'' as some say it or other brand name?

Maybe was a cheap one from a s.market or wholesale store?

[nta16]

7 hours ago, KenONeill said:

Never heard of "Payen" as a company. Quick Google says it's a trade name of Federal Mogul.

Payen is a well known name in "classic" car circles.

 

Looks like(?) the brand has been banded about recently, now owned by DriV(?) who are Federal-Mogul Motorparts LLC(?), all American corporate shuffling around I expect for who knows what reasons.

 

The only thing I know is, like many others, do not trust their website's parts database.

 

ETA: https://www.drivparts.com/en-gb/catalogue/60833/payen/sealing/gasket-set--cylinder-head/dt580.pd.html#wildcardspecial-part_number=DT580&search_type=part&category_id=3||3

 

Edited 18 January, 2022 by nta16
ETA:

[nta16]

10 hours ago, areed said:

I'd expected it to last a bit better than this, does anyone have any suggestions as to what may have caused it to fail so quickly, or ways to prevent it happening again?

Head gaskets are a proper PITA part often little more than bits of paper but can cause so much trouble and hassle.

 

Why they go or how long they last can have so many variables from design and manufacture of block and head and gasket itself to use and abuse, wear and tear of engine - or gasket in this case.  😁

 

When fitting the gasket needs to be right, head, block and gasket all clean, head and block level and not warped.  Then there's the sealant (or not) and correct torqueing, and retorquing if done, or perhaps should not be done.

 

The head studs (and nuts or fixings) condition or replacement.

 

I don't think the coolant would make much odds, unless it's got something in it it shouldn't have.

 

If you want you could throw in just sheer bad luck.

 

Once you have cleaned the block and head someone that knows about engine rebuilds might see something on them that might give an explanation (that's not me I'd not have much of a clue unless it's very obvious.  To me the gasket might have broken up when you parted the head from the block but I don't really know.

 

We're expecting a report from a fellow poster on their recent HG change, that might help you too.

 

[R_Blue]

"Felicia 1.3 Cylinder Head Corrosion Around Coolant Ways" topic was a great source of help for me for my HG change. Thanks for documenting the repair. Of course the main credit goes to @RicardoM for his invaluable help in both your topic and later, in mine.

 

Both old topic and this one should be cross evaluated for understanding the issue better. This is a very valuable source of info now. We have same engine here with its past and present pictured together.

 

I'm not an expert. My first observation from past pictures:

This was head surface after the skim.

It seems, more deep skim was impossible because, as you can see in the picture, skim limit indicator notch is very close to the surface.

This is also a flat head piston engine. (136) I think I read somewhere, higher compression in engines could lead to premature HG failure. Flat head pistons + deep skim means even higher compression.

HG is also 6 years old and more importantly how many miles did it cover?

[areed]

2 minutes ago, R_Blue said:

more importantly how many miles did it cover?

 

The car's done about 40000 miles since it was changed, current total for the engine is 162000.

[J.R.]

9 hours ago, KenONeill said:

Never heard of "Payen" as a company. Quick Google says it's a trade name of Federal Mogul.

 

I have been using their gasket sets for 46 years, they were and it would appear still are the market leader, I have used literally hundreds of head gasket and conversion gasket sets, maybe 2 over the years have been anything but Payen.

[J.R.]

That failure is absolutely nothing to do with how it was fitted 40000 miles ago, nor how clean the surfaces were, sealant, torquing or retorquing, design and manufacture of block and head, condition of head studs, use and abuse, wear and tear of the engine or bad luck. The engine had covered 160000 miles before the first failure so any manufacturing or design faults can be disregarded.

 

2 seconds glancing at the photo or at the gasket in real life would tell you that there is only one cause of failure, it is 100% the interaction between the coolant and the headgasket material with possible a galvanic influence but it looks like both the head and block are alloy so if there is a potential difference it will be with a metallic layer in the gasket composition.

 

If you have any doubts look at the photos of the machined head posted by R Blue, the very serious corrosion damage to the head face is in exactly the same place as where the OP's gasket has failed, where one sideof the gasket is exposed to the cooling passage of the cylinder block.

 

Shocking that Payen should have produced such an unsuitable gasket but if they are only now for the classic market and have been bought and sold several times they like all the other once well known brand names (except to Ken!!!) will have long lost the values and pride they once had and will just be producing or importing the cheapest crap to sell on to the classic car owners who deserve far better.

Edited 18 January, 2022 by J.R.

[nta16]

26 minutes ago, areed said:

 

The car's done about 40000 miles since it was changed, current total for the engine is 162000.

I know this does not help but it might show you are not alone.  Different car and engine but on my present car I had a HGF at 7,000 miles after engine rebuild/recondition, really annoying, and then again after another 44,000 miles, very annoying, both times the head was skimmed, definitely needed the second time, but the head has loads of spare on it.

 

[nta16]

@R_Blueare you able to say if the head in your photo used the same sort of Payen gasket as areed and whether the cause was thought or found to be the gasket?

 

[Thefeliciahacker]

As I said for me there was something aggressive in the coolant, and that's why you either stick to g11 or go green. 

Payen is top notch but if you say it was top notch then hm stuff ain't looking so great 

[RicardoM]

@areed

Sorry to hear about the HGF so quick. It is hard to tell what is the cause of premature failure. Both the quality of the HG and of the coolant seem to have played a role. I tend also to agree with @R_Blue

[nta16]

I missed the hyperlink in R-Blue's post and did not know this head had a HGF 6 years ago, looking at that thread areed with the mentoring  of RicardoM, and help of others, done a great job of that head gasket replacement and other work. 6 years ago.

 

On seeing the skimmed head (from 6 years ago) I not knowing any better was very surprised at the damage to the head left after skimming and thought there was quite a bit more left before getting to the skim limiter mark but if that would have made the compression too high was there nothing to overcome this that could be done(?).

 

It was recommended to me to use a particular Payen head gasket as that would be best so that is what I ordered but when I removed the head I was disappointed to find the exact same gasket was the one that had failed after 44,000 miles but that was at a common compression blow point of a very narrow band between the cylinders.

 

I lifted the photos from previous thread showing the areed's present broken gasket when first fitted 6 years ago and head after skimming 6 years ago.

 

 

Edited 19 January, 2022 by nta16

[nta16]

Looking at the photo of the gasket on the block, is the engine block the factory original type to the car, it obviously can be used with the head but the gasket looks like a mismatch - that is, the gasket matches the head but not the block?

 

Do the engine block markings match to the car as the original engine type or has another engine been fitted before areed's ownership?

 

 

[Thefeliciahacker]

That slight miss match doesn't play a role. Yet this gasket is the old payen style with the printed sealer red line going across. 

The newer style is the one I have the green one which is a ptfe coating offering beeter sealing performance. 

[Papez]

38 minutes ago, nta16 said:

Looking at the photo of the gasket on the block, is the engine block the factory original type to the car, it obviously can be used with the head but the gasket looks like a mismatch - that is, the gasket matches the head but not the block?

That is normal, here's picture of Favorit blok with Skoda HG

 

Favorit had newly designed head, but the block has been only slightly modified 130 - that's why it doesn't line up perfectly. 

[areed]

Fairly confident the engine is the original one. 

 

14 minutes ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

That slight miss match doesn't play a role. Yet this gasket is the old payen style with the printed sealer red line going across. 

The newer style is the one I have the green one which is a ptfe coating offering beeter sealing performance. 

 

That's interesting though, all of the ones I've found to buy online had the same red sealant. Where'd you manage to pick yours up?

[Thefeliciahacker]

10 minutes ago, areed said:

Where'd you manage to pick yours up

Locally search for payen BT581 

[Thefeliciahacker]

18 minutes ago, Papez said:

Favorit had newly designed head, but the block has been only slightly modified 130 - that's why it doesn't line up perfectly. 

I was sure they would not even bother