Actually, the more I think about these hybridididididy things the more I go off-topic too  

 

For instance, imagine you go to the shops. It's dark, cold and around 20-30 minutes away. The car starts to run on electric only, that means the heating, lights, sound system, heated seats, heated steering wheel and lots of other smaller systems all drawing power, even the steering draws electric power. So a quick jog around the interweb seems to suggest that all these systems would be run off the cars 12V battery. That makes sense I suppose, in that it would probably be a pain and expensive to fit an inverter to the traction battery (around 400V in the Peugeots) and the items are already all 12V designed anyway (they come from petrol and diesel standard cars). So if that is the case, then I assume the petrol engine will have to kick in as nothing more than a 12V generator!

 

On longer runs it probably isn't a problem, as I guess the petrol engine will run a lot more on the motorway etc and so recharge the 12V battery, but I assume the petrol engine won't be happy if it's only occasionally kicking in for small intermittent bursts during short journeys. Does the petrol particulate filter get clogged, do the catalysts not really reach operating temperature etc. This makes me think that the designers will have to force the petrol engine to run, just to keep the day to day operation of the car functional and not cause damage. A knock from this probably means a fair bit of running will have to be with the petrol engine, whether you want it or not? Not great if you are in an 'electric car only' zone in somewhere like London. Apparently the Peugeots have a blue light 'tell tale' that shows the car is running in EV mode and so hopefully the emissions police won't come after you in one of the afore mentioned zones. There is even talk of a second 12V battery somewhere in the car that affects the operation of the EV systems if it isn't reasonably well charged up.

 

These cars are a lot more complicated than I gave them credit for, I'd only ever really thought about the integration of them into the drive train. I wish I had an engineering brain I could borrow to answer the questions from my normal numpty brain, or maybe just plug it into my head like a second HDD    Makes you wonder how the current younger generation will ever understand the things around them as technology becomes even more prevalent and complex? 😞  

 

Perhaps I'm over thinking this  I need to go back down the cellar to feed George his lunch.... 

What is ridiculous is the 12v Batteries going flat issue that seems to be an issue, and especially a VW Group / Skoda one.

 

Loads of people seem perfectly happy running hybrids.

I chat to ones at the charging hubs because they do not spend on charging at home and just run on electric locally and then petrol when on longer trips.

MG Hybrid owners seem pretty  happy with their cars.

 

Volvo Plug in Hybrid owners and Mitsubishi SUV Hybrid owners less so with electric range and fuel consumption they get when the engine is running.

There *should* be DC-DC converter to charge or at least ensure the 12v battery doesn't drain.

 

With a giant amount of energy on reserve, it's amazing some EV (BEV or PHEV) still get flat 12v batteries. I personally think it's a case of existing car manufacturers not deviating from traditional car design. My first-gen Nissan Leaf, for example, turns on/off main traction battery in exact same way as engine ignition, no thought is put into other advantages of having that energy readily available. VW ID platform gets it, get in, change to D and drive, no more ignition switch.

 

Similarly, the 12v battery no longer need the traditional lead-acid type with deep discharge and high current capability. Replace with long-life low-usage and low-current type battery. Something that would last for years holding 12v for starter system. We don't need 100 cold cranking amp capability for EV, just need enough current to "start" the traction battery.

I'm hoping I can get to drive my friends, or at least we can go for a longer drive in it. "I'm properly intrigued, I am". 

 

On further reading, it seems the 3008 can suffer from drastically reduced range, not because of the air temp, but something linked to the second 12V battery. I'm hoping it's to do with people who are really using the car as an EV and in doing so, neglect the fact that it isn't one and that the petrol engine needs to be used, presumably, regularly. I think it might work with my lifestyle, as I often drive longer distances for work, so hopefully a hybrid would like that.  In fact, a small hybrid would be fine for my work I reckon, especially as we often have huge mobile generators onsite   

5 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

There *should* be DC-DC converter to charge or at least ensure the 12v battery doesn't drain.

 

With a giant amount of energy on reserve, it's amazing some EV (BEV or PHEV) still get flat 12v batteries. I personally think it's a case of existing car manufacturers not deviating from traditional car design. My first-gen Nissan Leaf, for example, turns on/off main traction battery in exact same way as engine ignition, no thought is put into other advantages of having that energy readily available. VW ID platform gets it, get in, change to D and drive, no more ignition switch.

 

Similarly, the 12v battery no longer need the traditional lead-acid type with deep discharge and high current capability. Replace with long-life low-usage and low-current type battery. Something that would last for years holding 12v for starter system. We don't need 100 cold cranking amp capability for EV, just need enough current to "start" the traction battery.

 

 

Further reading seems to show that the second 12V battery (described as a lead acid) needs at least 70% charge to enable the traction battery to work at full capacity and this isn't always happening for some owners. I'm beginning to think the car really wants to live as a hybrid and the EV setting is not good for the cars overall health if used regularly 

2 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

Further reading seems to show that the second 12V battery (described as a lead acid) needs at least 70% charge to enable the traction battery to work at full capacity and this isn't always happening for some owners. I'm beginning to think the car really wants to live as a hybrid and the EV setting is not good for the cars overall health if used regularly 

That's a rather stupid design decision if that's true.

 

PHEV should be designed to be EV first, unless it's for tax dodging purposes. Most PHEV owners I know, that bought the car themselves, would drive it in EV mode as much as possible to save fuel cost.

I am seeing quite a few Jeep Renegade 4xe Hybrids and Kuga Hybrids charging and in the past weeks some brand new Seat Leon e-Hybrids.

All have been getting plugged in or unplugged by ladies, none by laddies. 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

That's a rather stupid design decision if that's true.

 

PHEV should be designed to be EV first, unless it's for tax dodging purposes. Most PHEV owners I know, that bought the car themselves, would drive it in EV mode as much as possible to save fuel cost.

There is definitely a second battery, I just can't quite pin down what it does. I might have to go to a dealership and ask, just so I can sleep at night  

Our BEV's all have a battery.  Never needed to jump start it though. 

 I just open the bonnet to top up the windscreen wash.  Or to take a photo or 3.

So you don't have a second 12V battery?  Although i guess you don't need one if you don't have an engine to regularly start. 

 

Edited 22 February, 20224 yr by Lady Elanore

One 12V battery right of top picture.   

Car will not switch on without it, Lights, horn, radio, door locks, heated seats, heated steering wheel, mirrors, rear screen, phone charging and whatever else.

 

Plenty VW Group EV's were having flat battery problems and that meant no getting in, starting the car. 

New batteries and software updates required.

 

Ridiculous what happened with this Enyaq on low battery power. No matter powerpack or battery.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/501382-enyaq-warnings-and-information-unavailable-drive-carefully

 

 

Edited 22 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

On my Leaf, there is a single small 12v battery. I spent less than £50 bought the most expensive I can find to fit in that space when the car was ~5 years old just to be sure. That was because Nissan service told me battery was degraded, but I've never experienced any problem.

 

On my Octavia, on the other hand, was having trouble starting and had to spend £150 to buy a mid-range HUGE battery due to stop/start tech.

 

I guess on one hand, EV can do with smaller 12v battery and less stress on the battery. But on the other hand, unlike cranking an ICE, there is absolutely no warning when the 12v battery is about to go. One day it starts the car, the next day not enough voltage to unlock the doors.

A hybrid must be staggeringly complex. Having the complicated petrol and electric engines to integrate into a more or less imperceptible single-feeling power train, is a work of genius.  Different forms of propulsion and the integration of them together can not be an easy ask, certainly you'd imagine a pure EV or ICE car would be significantly easier to design and build. 

VW did it very well with the Golf GTE and the developments were looking great, and they managed to still cheat emissions for a while with the 1.4 TSI and then finally get figures to suit the WLTP / RDE figures needed.

 

They were doing so well with it all then took Software inhouse and have managed to get them selves in a right mess.

So much so that Porsche will be getting floated on the market.  

 

 

 

 

It makes a good argument for us all having V8s with low development costs. The ultimate green car is a 5.7 V8 Chevy I reckon  

On 22/02/2022 at 16:03, wyx087 said:

PHEV should be designed to be EV first, unless it's for tax dodging purposes. Most PHEV owners I know, that bought the car themselves, would drive it in EV mode as much as possible to save fuel cost.

Reports say that many company PHEV vehicles are returned at the end of lease with the charging cable still sealed in the plastic bag it was put in at the factory.

 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/105206/fleet-owned-plug-in-hybrids-may-never-have-been-charged

 

If those reports are correct then it would seem that there is a 'tax dodging' minority(?) of company car drivers - with the beneficial BIK rates for hybrids it's not surprising that hybrids are chosen.

Edited 25 February, 20224 yr by PetrolDave

The government stopped being so generous to Business users with a Hybrid because of that.   It was a con that assisted many financially.  It still can be.   Presently I am sitting charging next to  3 hybrids that will be plugged in for free for several hours.  Only 4 chargers here and if an EV driver turns up I will let them in my place.  If a hybrid turns up with their 2nd car and driver to pick then up they are out of luck. 

I've just been looking at charge points I could use if I had a hybrid and it was used for work. For one day jobs, charging at home is a no-brainer, probably about £2.80 for 10kWh with new tariffs (approx correct I think ,as I gather the batteries retain around 25% of charge at all times, or at least the Peugeot/Vauxhall one does). But I do longer jobs where I work away from home and there are currently no chargers at the hotels/digs I use, or on site at the places I work (this includes nearby car parks). So running between accommodation and work would be a petrol only affair after a few days, except for a slight braking recharge facility. I don't know if that meagre amount would make much difference in town driving?? Certainly, full EV would be a nightmare for me.

So I've been out in the Hybridddiddy and even had a go in it. The steering is a bit mad, super light and you look over the top of it to see the dashboard. Weird, but it works well as the steering wheel is flat on top and bottom. But anyhoo the drive is very smooth. It's hard to tell when the petrol engine kicks in and joins or takes over from the electric engines. Super well implemented. Not sure about the economy of it all yet, as it wasn't really that sort of drive and the trip computer also reflected my friends drive down to my house, but I must say the engineering of the hybrid system seems beautifully integrated. I'd like more control over whether you wanted to purely drive on the petrol engine, but I think there might be a setting for this in a sub menu, my friend has no idea  Another thing that came to light is how comfortable the car is. It's a little bit old school. You forget about comfort a bit these days, as cars tend to firmly sprung with a serious weapons grade dampers, the 3008, with its extra mass, seems to flatten bumps without being too bouncy, even if there is a little roll in the corners. It made a pleasant change from the modern uber hatch with its Nürburgring honed suspension.  

6 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

I've just been looking at charge points I could use if I had a hybrid and it was used for work. For one day jobs, charging at home is a no-brainer, probably about £2.80 for 10kWh with new tariffs (approx correct I think ,as I gather the batteries retain around 25% of charge at all times, or at least the Peugeot/Vauxhall one does). But I do longer jobs where I work away from home and there are currently no chargers at the hotels/digs I use, or on site at the places I work (this includes nearby car parks). So running between accommodation and work would be a petrol only affair after a few days, except for a slight braking recharge facility. I don't know if that meagre amount would make much difference in town driving?? Certainly, full EV would be a nightmare for me.

 

Ask the sparks to give you a connection to those big genies they often have ?

Not really zero emissions mind you.

 

 

 

The spark option is already deep in my thoughts, as is a suitable bribe. Not sure if I could get away with a full EV charge though  

7 minutes ago, Lady Elanore said:

The spark option is already deep in my thoughts, as is a suitable bribe. Not sure if I could get away with a full EV charge though  

 

Overtime at time and a half or double time or some other seventies practice I expect. 

I hugely dislike the Peugeot's dash-over-wheel design. I've had Peugoet rental cars. But the steering wheel always obstructs my view for the dash because I prefer to drive half lying down. Move the steering any lower and my leg get squished.

I am charging in Dunblane and got in near 24 kWh in 55 mins on a 50 kWh charger. Pathetic.  There are only 2 of them.  On the other one there is a 21 plate Audi A3 hybrid.  So far it has been there 9 hours 23 minutes on the AC 43 kW and has got 11.2 kWh of charge.   There are 5 7kw chargers it could be on. 

Edited 26 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

41 minutes ago, roottoot said:

I am charging in Dunblane and got in near (????) kWh in 55 mins on a 50 kWh charger.  There are only 2 of them.  On the other one there is a 21 plate Audi A3 hybrid.  So far it has been there 9 hours 23 minutes on the AC 43 kW and has got 11.2 kWh of charge.   There are 5 7kw chargers it could be on. 

 

Combien de kWs ? 

 

Typical Audi driver maybe ?

 

Long live powerful AC, 22 kws please and several times more DC.   AC/DC more please.

 

Some kind of cool filming angles here......  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 26 February, 20224 yr by lol-lol