135&136 differences

[Iris_Heart]

Aighty so I got myself a Skoda Favorit as a donor vehicle for the engine and it's got a 135B engine in it with what I think is single point throttle body injection.

I was planning on putting this lump in the back of my 120GLS and was wondering what are the differences between this and the 136 engines, I know the 136 has slightly more power due to higher compression, but is it the same deal as with the 120 that it's just higher compression pistons and that's it?

I think I heard someone mention that the heads in the 136 were a bit different and that the 136X had a different camshaft than the rest.

I think I heard someone mention that the 136 had valve stem seals, but have no idea yet if the 135 has them or is it the same old "drill them straight through the head and hope for the best" as in the RWD Skodas?

 

Also, is there any way to trick the ECU into sending more fuel into the engine? If this is a low compression engine, we have to force feed it air through either a turbo or a supercharger obviously.

[Papez]

11 hours ago, Iris_Heart said:

I know the 136 has slightly more power due to higher compression, but is it the same deal as with the 120 that it's just higher compression pistons and that's it?

 

Pretty much yes, 136 have flat pistons, while 135 have an oval recess.

 

11 hours ago, Iris_Heart said:

I think I heard someone mention that the heads in the 136 were a bit different and that the 136X had a different camshaft than the rest

 

There was a huge variety in camshafts and heads, IIRC, the 136B had the largest duration, while the 136M (Felicia) had the best head design. The 136X also had a different ignition timing to achieve a bit higher power. Maybe I could find some more information.

 

11 hours ago, Iris_Heart said:

I think I heard someone mention that the 136 had valve stem seals, but have no idea yet if the 135 has them

 

Yes, the head design is the same, as the 135 has been derived from the 136.

 

11 hours ago, Iris_Heart said:

Also, is there any way to trick the ECU into sending more fuel into the engine? If this is a low compression engine, we have to force feed it air through either a turbo or a supercharger obviously.

 

I think that were attempts to chip tune the ECU, but it requires hardware mods. Maybe it'd be easier to get carburettor instead.

Turbo was done on the MPI engines, but it's a lot of work, which requires custom software and ideally a Fabia block. 

[KenONeill]

3 hours ago, Papez said:

I think that were attempts to chip tune the ECU, but it requires hardware mods.

Also @Iris_Heart - Well, I did once inquire about remapping a non-turbo injection car, and the people I inquired from said "maybe 10% more power".

[D.FYLAKTOS]

On 30/06/2022 at 23:48, Iris_Heart said:

Also, is there any way to trick the ECU into sending more fuel into the engine? If this is a low compression engine, we have to force feed it air through either a turbo or a supercharger obviously.

 

I have a Felicia with ECU chip for almost 20 years (one update was done recently) plus custom exhaust (i also had filter like K&N or BMC).

As for turbo back in 2000-2002 some tuners here in Greece advertise that can put a turbo on this engine, the cost for the whole kit then was 1.000.000 drachmas which is now about 2934 euro.

Some guys made an engine swap from VW group and put a turbo on it but some guys keep the stock engine:

 

 

Here is a Favorit turbo

 

 

As for the green garden water hose....well...😲

 

 

[R_Blue]

I dug this too sometime ago. From what I've heard, some people had used low pressure small diesel turbos for this engine. Like from old ISUZU pickups from 90s. They say those turbos are cheap too. Also, from what I've heard, installing a turbo ON a carburetor wouldn't work. So they were installing the turbo between the carb. and intake manifold, using custom made adapters. So the turbo would suck from below the carb. They call this Alpine style.

 

It is claimed that all this work is done over standard manifold and carb.(with adjusted jets) for minimal cost but take this with some salt because I've never saw a picture or any other info about this. Just someone's words.

[KenONeill]

@R_Blue I've never seen one, but the MG Metro turbo had a turbo then carb arrangement, and the carb had to be installed in a sealed box to hold (low) pressure in the carb.

[R_Blue]

On 03/07/2022 at 12:35, KenONeill said:

@R_Blue I've never seen one, but the MG Metro turbo had a turbo then carb arrangement, and the carb had to be installed in a sealed box to hold (low) pressure in the carb.

It is always fun and interesting to discover how the engineers overcame the challenges of their time with unique designs which are forgotten now.

 

[KenONeill]

56 minutes ago, R_Blue said:

It is always fun and interesting to discover how the engineers overcame the challenges of their time with unique designs which are forgotten now.

 

 

True, but that's a (non-turbo) Metro 6R4, not an MG Metro turbo, which was a fairly normal FWD Metro other than the unusual turbocharging arrangement.

[J.R.]

On 03/07/2022 at 11:35, KenONeill said:

@R_Blue I've never seen one, but the MG Metro turbo had a turbo then carb arrangement, and the carb had to be installed in a sealed box to hold (low) pressure in the carb.

 

Can you expand a little on what you mean by that please Ken? What carburettor type was fitted?

 

 

I had quite a bit of experience with carburettors and forced induction, basically you need the float chamber to be pressurised to the same boost as the intake tract, early Webers with vented float bowls needed significant modification, the later ones where the vent was on the filter face worked well with an airbox which was a necessity anyway. Constant vacuum carbs like SU and Stromberg work very well.

 

I cannot see any reason to put the carburettor in a sealed box unless it had an external float chamber vent which no cars of the period had, and there would be far easier, cheaper and more elegant solutions.

[R_Blue]

I think @KenONeill is referring to this:

Quote

The engine was fitted with a Garrett T3 turbo on a specially designed and cast exhaust manifold. Compressed air was delivered to the single carburettor that was specially modified to run with pressurised air by having special sealing and a variable rate fuel pressure delivery to ensure a constant positive 4psi fuel delivery pressure whatever the operating pressure was. The engine was also significantly strengthened with materials and processes common to competition engines with many Turbo only parts such as the cylinder head, pistons crankshaft, block, sodium filled exhaust valves, etc. This was a pretty unique engine yet when fitted into the car it didn’t look that different.

Quoted from:

https://www.mgownersclub.co.uk/mg-guides/saloons/mg-metro-turbo

[Iris_Heart]

@R_Blue

@J.R.

If you're prepared for some proper redneck engineering then you can boost almost any carb with a pressure cooker stolen from mums cabinet.

You just cut holes for the carb to sit at the bottom and drill holes for the linkages, bolt the unholy contraption to your intake and hope your float and needle valve hold on to dear life as you try to cram 50psi down the throat of a poor chinese Weber clone.

 

It "works" for a while, but isn't definitely something I'd like to take on the road.

Mate of mine did this kind of setup on his Opel Ascona C ice ring racer. It held on long enough for him to flip the car on a dirt road