New clutch, high bite point

[Tomjones1995]

Hello again everyone.

 

I hope your all well,

 

I've a strange conundrum that's happening with my new clutch and DMF.

 

 To take the car out of any gear, I need to push the pedal to the floor to do so which Im sure is normal and correct.

 

But when I select a new gear, the bite point in higher than on my old clutch and I'm struggling to get to change smoothly, as far as I can tell it's not slipping but it's got a strangely high biting point.

 

This is my first new clutch but I thought the bite would be lower than before not higher?

 

Can anybody shed any light on as to what is happening please?

 

Kind regards,

Tom

 

 

[Owainsdad]

No, new clutch = higher bite point.  As everything wears you need pedal further down to reach biting point, until you reach the point that you can't disengage the clutch at all, at the bottom of the pedal travel.

 

Sounds normal to me 👍

 

Cheers

 

Dean

[duck]

On 16/08/2022 at 08:13, Owainsdad said:

No, new clutch = higher bite point.  As everything wears you need pedal further down to reach biting point, until you reach the point that you can't disengage the clutch at all, at the bottom of the pedal travel.

 

Sounds normal to me 👍

 

Cheers

 

Dean

 

Not sure you understand how a clutch works as what you said makes no sense, the original poster is correct in his assumption, I do find however that the hydraulic system in these cars do have quiet a high biting point.

 

It may sound obvious but get the clutch bled out again, if you need to push the pedal to the floor to disengage the clutch it sound like air in the system, if the biting point is a bit random also suggests air in the system making it inconsistent.

 

 

[Tomjones1995]

2 hours ago, duck said:

 

Not sure you understand how a clutch works as what you said makes no sense, the original poster is correct in his assumption, I do find however that the hydraulic system in these cars do have quiet a high biting point.

 

It may sound obvious but get the clutch bled out again, if you need to push the pedal to the floor to disengage the clutch it sound like air in the system, if the biting point is a bit random also suggests air in the system making it inconsistent.

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply. I am definitely struggling to get a smooth gear change out of it. I can get a smooth bite but I have to really search for the biting point now where as it was second nature before. The new DMF has a little vibration through it as well so I don't know if maybe something in the transmission has been misaligned somehow?

 

Thanks again,

Tom

[nta16]

From what you've put unless you're a pretty poor or inexperienced driver it doesn't sound right to me.  To me it's either something wrong with what's been installed or the work or it has highlighted another problem elsewhere.  Something wrong with the work or new parts is often the case in my experience rather than another fault being shown up, but of course this could and does happen.

 

[Owainsdad]

13 hours ago, duck said:

 

Not sure you understand how a clutch works as what you said makes no sense, the original poster is correct in his assumption, I do find however that the hydraulic system in these cars do have quiet a high biting point.

 

It may sound obvious but get the clutch bled out again, if you need to push the pedal to the floor to disengage the clutch it sound like air in the system, if the biting point is a bit random also suggests air in the system making it inconsistent.

 

 

I understand perfectly how a clutch works, thank you.  I've been fitting and repairing them since we were all still driving around in MKIV Cortinas which, I'd hazard a guess, was probably well before you were even born.

 

A new clutch will have a higher biting point than an old, worn one, and the biting point will move down the pedal travel as the clutch wears until even when the pedal is on the floor the clutch will not disengage.  Just exactly what is wrong with what I said?

 

Looking at your profile you seem to accuse a great many people on here of being trolls, but it would seem the troll, my friend, is you......

[duck]

One of the advantages of a hydraulic clutch is the hydraulics compensate for wear and so the pedal biting point stays consistent throughout the life of the clutch, if the clutch gets to the point of slipping the driver will get the sensation of a higher pedal biting point as the slightest depression of the pedal will exaggerate the slipping. 

 

Your guess is incorrect my friend, I don't want to play top trumps on our age but I was born when the Mk1 cortina was still in production. 

 

Thanks for your research on my posts, I rarely post unless I have experience of the issue as there is to much misinformation going around, I have owned my Mk1 VRS for 13 years (130,000+ miles of use ) and I also maintain another persons Mk1 VRS, during this time I have done 5 clutch changes, 2 x concentric slave cylinder changes and 1 x clutch master cylinder change on them and so pretty familiar with how they operate and what they are like to drive as they wear down. 

 

The troll issue comments I have made in the past have been directed at one person that is know on this forum by anyone that has been on here for a few years, he has had lots of clashes with members due to his abrupt style of comments, I am quiet surprised he has not commented on this thread to be honest. 

 

Anyway was fun reading your comments, have a good day

Edited 18 August, 2022 by duck

[KenONeill]

@Owainsdad said

Quote

A new clutch will have a higher biting point than an old, worn one, and the biting point will move down the pedal travel as the clutch wears until even when the pedal is on the floor the clutch will not disengage.

@duck replied

Quote

One of the advantages of a hydraulic clutch is the hydraulics compensate for wear and so the pedal biting point stays consistent throughout the life of the clutch

Both statements are true as far as they go. A cable clutch biting point will move down the pedal travel with wear, but a hydraulic clutch is self-adjusting once it's been bled and the driver(s) are used to any change in biting point from the new clutch.

[duck]

Mk1 fabia are hydraulic clutch not cable clutch and so the information suggesting the biting point moves with wear and is higher on a new clutch are incorrect. 

 

Sure the biting point of a new clutch will be different to the worn clutch but not necessary higher. 

 

So I stand by my original reply and won't take offence at the condescending remarks from owainsdad, maybe they confused the cable operated clutch characteristics with a hydraulic clutch. 

[nta16]

58 minutes ago, duck said:

I don't want to play top trumps on our age but I was born when the Mk1 cortina was still in production. 

I thought you beat me but as I'm old and befuddled I'd forgot I was born before Mk1 production started, my second, or third can't remember which, car was a Consul Cortina (1200 with extra long gearstick) in the late 70s, we had a Mk3 in the early 90s and Mk3 Capri in 2004-5, was just happy to have operating clutches and not worried about the types or how close the left knee was to the dash.

 

It was all fields around here  when I was a young girl but much has changed since then . . .

 

[nta16]

Oh, I forgot - unless things have changed(?) Tom's got a VW Polo if that makes any odds clutch wise. Tom, Tom turn around, now who sang that, not Brotherhood of Man,  . . .

[Tomjones1995]

1 hour ago, duck said:

Mk1 fabia are hydraulic clutch not cable clutch and so the information suggesting the biting point moves with wear and is higher on a new clutch are incorrect. 

 

Sure the biting point of a new clutch will be different to the worn clutch but not necessary higher. 

 

So I stand by my original reply and won't take offence at the condescending remarks from owainsdad, maybe they confused the cable operated clutch characteristics with a hydraulic clutch. 

 

I've driven the car this morning and it's definitely a higher biting point than the old clutch and it tends to snatch it into gear as I pull my foot up and not ease it in as it used to with the old clutch. The new DMF is also vibrating a little bit with a noticeable intermittent judder around 2000 rpm.

 

I'l try and get it re-bled as you suggested and I'l take it from there.

 

Thanks again,

Tom

 

55 minutes ago, nta16 said:

Oh, I forgot - unless things have changed(?) Tom's got a VW Polo if that makes any odds clutch wise. Tom, Tom turn around, now who sang that, not Brotherhood of Man,  . . .

 

Still using the Polo, thanks 👍

[KenONeill]

2 hours ago, Tomjones1995 said:

it tends to snatch it into gear as I pull my foot up

Well, on rereading your description I think you may have an air bubble at a high point in the hydraulic line.

[sepulchrave]

6 hours ago, duck said:

The troll issue comments I have made in the past have been directed at one person that is know on this forum by anyone that has been on here for a few years, he has had lots of clashes with members due to his abrupt style of comments, I am quiet surprised he has not commented on this thread to be honest.

 

I feel your pain...

[duck]

Here ya go as if by magic he has arrived 

[TMB]

8 hours ago, KenONeill said:

A cable clutch biting point will move down the pedal travel with wear

 

No, the biting point becomes higher with wear.

[sepulchrave]

It's possible to fit the driven plate the wrong way round, it's also possible to fit the new DMF slightly out of position by not torquing the crank bolts correctly.

 

The job might have been done badly by an inexperienced mechanic who was rushed.

[J.R.]

As has been said, a hydraulic clutch is self adjusting, the comments made by Owainsdad and Ken O Neill are 100% incorrect, as a clutch driven plate wears the pressure plate moves forwards pushing the release bearing backwards, this gradually takes up the free play on a cable clutch, the bite point gets progressively higher, if the cable is not adjusted to give back the required free play the pressure on the driven plate will reduce just as if someone is riding the clutch and it will start to slip and burn out.

 

I did my first clutch on a Granada 3 litre at in 1974 at 15 years of age and my last (to date) a year ago.

 

Even I have not done a cable operated clutch for maybe 15 years so its quite understandable that people may be confusing themselves with old memories.

 

The characteristics, pedal pressure, feel, stroke and to a lesser degree biting point will all change somewhat with a new clutch especially an aftermarket one even with a hydraulic clutch, then there are errors and problems when fitting to compound things.

 

I had to drive a 12 year old low milage Dacia onto a recovery trailer today (auxiliary drive belt shredded) it was a jewel, main dealer serviced yet the clutch biting point compared to my vehicle was so high that I thought I was in neutral or there was no drive, I had already moved the seat back. I suspect it had a cable clutch, it had wind up windows.

Edited 18 August, 2022 by J.R.

[J.R.]

12 hours ago, Owainsdad said:

 

 

A new clutch will have a higher biting point than an old, worn one, and the biting point will move down the pedal travel as the clutch wears until even when the pedal is on the floor the clutch will not disengage.  Just exactly what is wrong with what I said?

 

 

Not wanting to inflame things but what is wrong is everything you have said.

 

I think your memory is playing tricks with you, what you describe could happen with failing clutch hydraulics or a failed self adjust mechanism on the pedal of a cable clutch like Ford used for a while but as a clutch driven plate wears it takes up free play in the release arm, cable and pedal linkage.

 

 

[AnnoyingPentium]

Memory slipping... just like an old clutch...?

 

Best joke I could make here.

[Tomjones1995]

23 hours ago, sepulchrave said:

It's possible to fit the driven plate the wrong way round, it's also possible to fit the new DMF slightly out of position by not torquing the crank bolts correctly.

 

The job might have been done badly by an inexperienced mechanic who was rushed.

 

The was a young chap who was working on my car so that's also a likely possibility

 

The young lad actually said he'd driven the car round the yard and it drove 'nice'

 

Thanks for the help everyone 👍

Edited 19 August, 2022 by Tomjones1995

[TMB]

Has your sill been welded up, Tom?

[Tomjones1995]

46 minutes ago, TMB said:

Has your sill been welded up, Tom?

 

Yes! Thanks for asking. I wasn't sure if you guys would remember. 

 

All in all the car has set me back close to £2k which is why this clutch & DMF rubbish is rubbing more salt into my wounds.

 

 

[TMB]

1 hour ago, Tomjones1995 said:

All in all the car has set me back close to £2k which is why this clutch & DMF rubbish is rubbing more salt into my wounds.

 

Cars are nowt but grief

[Tomjones1995]

16 minutes ago, TMB said:

 

Cars are nowt but grief

 

Yeah they are, no arguments from me haha.

 

Hopefully I can sort all this nonsense out soon. I've got a lot of bodywork corrosion to sort after as well.

 

I need 2x new front wings and a driver door and a few stone chips that need seeing to on the bonnet.

 

I've made myself a promise that this be the last time that I'm sentimental with a car 😄

 

I've also got an Octy as a runaround now as well at the moment which makes repairs on the Polo easier to sort because I don't need a garage with a courtesy car and I don't need it back ASAP either which expands my options on garages

Edited 19 August, 2022 by Tomjones1995