On the edge… again… phev, or go all in on ev…

[ColinD]

Back to the edge of going for an ev.

 

swmbo has to make a choice on a new lease. Gone are all her small engine pure ice. So it’s bigger ice/PHEV or pure electric.

 

totally first world problem of course. Having the choice is lovely, albeit limited.

 

currently the melting pot is:

• mazda cx-60 PHEV
• skoda enyaq 80
• tesla y rwd 
• ionic 5 77

 

a few others but those are the front runners. No self charging hybrids sadly. I feel the phev is a it of a conn once depleted which we did from a half charge around town test with two motorway junctions.
 

the PHEV is because… why not, although more than the ev’s due to tax… although nice it’s a bit weird, combined ev and ice into gearbox, so ev mode changes gear. Although it picks up ok, normally aspirated, so no second surge from ice, just noise.

 

I still have a bit of a hang up on more esoteric destinations, like in the highlands, wales etc. places where there will be no destination charge, or the car parked up for a few days while off exploring. None are 100 miles from a charger.

 

A broken charger in the highlands though… that’s why we’re looking at the larger batteries. However I know we are going to pay a higher price (weight) day to day though.

 

range anxiety as such isn’t actually there. It’s much more charger anxiety. That’s why the tesla is there. Sadly no dual motor option.
 

phev for fuel dinosaur approach, tesla for some peace of mind.

 

then the enyaq with all the toys on, we’ll only want adaptive cruise and adaptive lights… but you need to have everything else too. Still less than the backup phev’s.

 

ionic 5 because I’d take the 6, except it’s a saloon 😞

 

Ok, so wow, that’s the backstory…

 

anyone feeling on the edge of electric? Or settling on one more round (48months) of phev?

 

Sadly my superb 272 will be going, likely turning into a fabia, or a Renault 5  if I dither long enough.
 

The cx60 is a nod to keeping 250plus like overtaking, less danger time etc.

 

thoughts?

 

Edited 23 May, 2023 by ColinD

[wyx087]

7 minutes ago, ColinD said:

range anxiety as such isn’t actually there. It’s much more charger anxiety. That’s why the tesla is there.

Exactly same for me, that's why I've gone with a Tesla for our long range car.

 

Don't need dual motor I don't think, the acceleration is fun and relentless, but it's entirely optional. Some days I'd use no more than 100 kW (according to data logger). If I were choosing now, I would have bought the standard RWD. It's same car as LR, a little less performance, but due to being more efficient, its range is hasn't dropped by much.

 

Everyone is different, it's worth test driving the cars and see which one makes you feel the best. I would not buy another ICE ever again, so PHEV are out for me. I didn't like Enyaq, feels too much like existing Skoda with batteries, not a bad thing for some people. I considered Kia EV6 but it didn't feel special enough, also some other minor niggles. Hyundai dealer just ignored my phone calls when enquiring about Ioniq 5. The purchase price back in mid-22 were similar across all 3 EV's when spec'd similarly. But Tesla has guaranteed access to their charging network.

[Ootohere]

I suppose she will not want to be seen dead in a Dacia Jogger Hybrid.   

 I think in Black or Silver they will make a good hearse.

 

I will not be paying the crazy prices that they are getting to in the Northern parts of Scotland and without any improvements in the charger network. 

[ColinD]

Sadly no Dacia or many others available.

 

although there is the Nissan and Renault. I do like there google entertainment setup.

 

im not in the far north often so reckon I can stand the odd overpriced day. However the costs do mount up. But then again I run super unleaded and had a good few £100 plus tank fills.

 

the model y is as far ahead as is it behind. I’m not convinced  on the button less screen, however it possibly took me longer to find something in skoda setup and I should have a degree of familiarity with it.

 

I agree the twin motor is fun, I would get tired of it on a longer journey, or bumpy ground. Although we did test a dual in chill mode to get an idea of rwd go. 6k pays for a lot of electricity.

 

the enjaq and 5 cost less to run than the y, for our typical journeys, ie the once/twice a month trip to wales, lakes. Purely down to starting with more power.

 

the y however in rwd form has this new battery chemistry where you can charge regularly to 100% vs the classic 80% daily.

 

we’d also not be waiting 6Plus months for the enyaq.

 

im in in the ev. The phev, just felt wrong. Nice, lovely place to be. But just a heavier ice with a tiny tax break. Bit mad though as she’s in a 1.0t focus estate atm, so anything is a big step up!

 

tesla might be edging it, if only for the storage. The rest will fall into place I’m sure.

[wyx087]

9 minutes ago, ColinD said:

the enjaq and 5 cost less to run than the y

Is there Tesla superchargers near or en-route?

Tesla network typically have lower price than public charging. ~40p/kWh off-peak (anytime other than the afternoon) for ones I looked. But it's normal for public network to charge over 60p/kWh for rapid charging.

 

I agree the touch screen is not ideal for use when manually driving. But I've no problem using it when autopilot is engaged. They've recently added steering wheel button quick actions for to allow doing more stuff without poking at the touch screen: https://www.notateslaapp.com/software-updates/upcoming-features/id/1336/tesla-update-2023-12-a-look-at-steering-wheel-customization-and-text-size-adjustments

 

Glad to see you've test driven them. Make sure you are happy with the stiff suspension on the Y. The best thing with Enyaq, for me, was the comfy ride. I've heard Ioniq 5 are similarly comfy.

[ColinD]

Yep Tesla in flint and crops up often.

I think it’s a better route planner setting for the rwd. Ie it has more range than they have for that model. 
 

I actually didn’t think it was that stiff. I have DCC on the superb and almost always have it on sport firm setting. The comfort, I don’t get motion sick, but I feel less connected. Not driven the 5 yet. 
the enyaq, gets the job done, but even swmbo said it was a bit meh about getting going.

 

we’d get used to all of them. A small part of us are thinking what if we step of the lease wagon… problem is it’s a subsidised scheme, to good to give up, despite choice restrictions and timing, ie do by month end.
 

 

[lol-lol]

22 hours ago, toot said:

I suppose she will not want to be seen dead in a Dacia Jogger Hybrid.   

 I think in Black or Silver they will make a good hearse.

 

I will not be paying the crazy prices that they are getting to in the Northern parts of Scotland and without any improvements in the charger network. 

 

I love the Renault Dacia brands and the value is ace.

The current Etechs are a bit weak with their 1.6 naturally aspirated engine but tonight I will try the new Austral with the turbo engine and meaty etech system that can provide over 60 mpg, 600 mile range and 8s standing  quarter which no EV can currently provide but probably will in two or three year time when EVs will be superior to ICE in all respects.

 

With the UK not subsidising EVs the EVe are pricey but also buying or PCPing an EV might be expensive as EV prices are tumbling due to incoming much cheaper batteries coming on stream.

 

I would not pay over £40k for a Megane E when I can pay less than £35k for an Austral.

 

Most European car makers could be out of business by the end of the decade decade and the Japanese too on present course of debt and offering.

 

[lol-lol]

Well Renault Austral was in some ways impressive and other ways bland.   Will work at 70 mph (actually up to 130 kph Renault HQ guy mentioned) in EV mode, looks like it can go over 60 mpg and he said range can be seen to be over 700 miles.  Acceleration pretty good, just about 8s to 60 with the turbo and ETECH working in combo, starts at £34.6K, made in Spain not South Korea like my Arkana was.  As purely a value proposition, compared to the Megane-E electric car I would probably go for the Austral but then waiting for the new Rafale seems an even better idea as it will have all the Austral tech but in a better looking Sports Coupe body and hopefully not be over £40k for the base model.

 

I see too many Model Ys, especially in white, even though my Arkana is a Pearl While but only cost me £25K, and I have a big worry about VW cars with huge debt it has and even more it is borrowing to go down the EV roll fully at prices that mean they will sell enough carsa to survive.  Mazda, Nissan and Toyota could all be toast as they are so slow to the EV and PHEV market across a decent rage of models, Stelantis too, maybe Renault/Dacia will be the European HQ car maker to survive the Chinese and TESLA value onslaught ?    

 

 

Edited 25 May, 2023 by lol-lol

[mdk1]

We have an Enyaq and love it, also had a Tesla M3P as well at the same time, afraid to say we used the Enyaq more, just felt the better car, ie you can turn the windscreen wipers on and off when you wanted! 
loved the acceleration of the M3P but you do get bored of it and then it just becomes a car with to bigger touch screen and no buttons.

and has no soul.

Having gone back to petrol, I do miss the smoothness of ev power.

 

[Warrior193]

Saw an interesting short interview from Rowan Atkinson (Independent) on EVs, his opinion is the 'honeymoon period' is coming to its end and says he feels 'duped' over some of the green claims for them. He was quoting recent data from Volvo, regarding production emissions compared to petrol vehicles.

[wyx087]

4 minutes ago, Warrior193 said:

Saw an interesting short interview from Rowan Atkinson (Independent) on EVs, his opinion is the 'honeymoon period' is coming to its end and says he feels 'duped' over some of the green claims for them. He was quoting recent data from Volvo, regarding production emissions compared to petrol vehicles.

The Volvo whitepaper claims are hugely biased due to their poor supply chain and badly compromised vehicle platform (not dedicated EV platform).

I can't find my post when I quoted a number of other sources that says opposite of Volvo's claims.

[Warrior193]

I find that rather surprising, considering Volvo's action in moving all production to EVs.

[wyx087]

5 minutes ago, Warrior193 said:

I find that rather surprising, considering Volvo's action in moving all production to EVs.

At time of the paper's publication, they only had 2 full EV's for sale, the Polestar 2 and XC40. Their main claim was based on high vehicle production carbon for XC40. But the numbers are waaaaay too much when compared to other sources such as Tesla and VW ID dedicated EV platform claims on vehicle production carbon emission. This suggests poor manufacturing techniques and bad supply chain.

 

 

[ColinD]

Read the same article. Interestingly SWMBO, whose lease this is going to be, asked what he said... I stood there, with a erm...  nothing new.

 

We might of missed the phev window. I think me lusting after the megane I've talked myself into scalextric and dragged her in too.  Perhaps it's because I'm looking for it, but almost all negatives I'm seeing now,  is what I was worrying about this time last year, charger availability during a longer beyond range trip.

The current front runner on paper is the hyundai ionic5.  The model Y in third after either the id4 or enyaq.  The model Y trump card, beyond it's boot, is the tesla network. Even though it's a lower capacity battery and costs more than say the i5 to do a trip to scotland and back, we kind of believe the chargers will be there and be working, and that matters.

 

Once past Perth in Scotland, say a trip to the crags of Harris and Lewis, it's a zero sum game, tesla has to jump on the normal networks, and thats where I'd prefer to have a little more range, in case the one charger in Stornaway is kaput. However this is a once a year type trip. Although I do have to get my munros done, so plenty of trips, but few to the outer edges of a network.

The lease/p11/tax on a ID4 Pro life Perf 4motion is less than a Mazda CX60 and only a tiny tiny bit more than a kia niro2 phev. 

As @Lady Elanore mentioned, her phev is a outward journey or local journeys benefit. Beyond that it's dead weight till you get to your destination. The cx60 was nice, apart from the gear changing ev bit   

Think I'm smitten, but still very very conscious of charger standards and really don't want to go tesla, but equally, it might be easier and it has dog/camp mode   but then I need to use the screen to wash the windows, I'm not convinced. Guess it's an adaptation thing.

Then to twist it all, if considering the lfp 60 model y, can also consider the aryia, megane and all the others I initially wrote off as <200 real world miles in winter. 

[wyx087]

3 minutes ago, ColinD said:

 tesla....I need to use the screen to wash the windows

Just to clarify, you can wash the window using left stalk push button just like on Mercedes.

And now, after recent update, you don't need to take hands off steering wheel to adjust wiper speeds. Press the wiper button and use left scroll wheel left/right to adjust wiper speed.

 

The Tesla heat system "octo-valve" is incredibly efficient. Out of your shortlist, this car is the only car that can take heat from battery (heated up by rapid charging session) into your cabin, not needing to use stored electric energy. Of course, day-to-day home charging won't see this benefit, but I'd argue long distance driving and rapid charging is when one needs this kind of efficiency trick the most.

[ColinD]

@wyx087 super thanks. I feel a 'test' drive of the tesla would be greatly improved with a 30mins in the car before you move session.

 

Using ABRP on various trips I'd do, into north wales, lakes, scotland there isn't a lot in it, cost or time wise. Trade a bit of cost in the tesla charge but gain some time as faster than the public 50kWh the i5/enyaq would have to use. Little munro 4 day road trip plan. Does not account for overnight, although highly likey to be a bothy, tent, or hut with three pin max. ModelY RWD vs Ionic5 RWD. The extra range is moot once in the highlands, based on charger location. Peace of mind to have some in reserve. However I coped perfectly well with a citigo bobbing about on a 200ish mile range of petrol fuel and there are almost as few petrol stations as electric. As i discvoered in MidWales last summer, petrol stations close at 6pm on weekends. The EV sites were open, oh the irony as my fuel light blinked away trying to make 35 on the computer make 40 to a tesco.

[Ootohere]

The difference with an UpMiiCitigo on petrol is that you can stick 2 x 10 litre cans of go go juice in the boot. 

 

PS

1 Unreliable Rapid @ Lairg. but then there is also another CPS at Ardgay Regeneration just a bit south.

http://chargeplacescotland.org/chargeplace-scotland-live-map

 

Edited 4 June, 2023 by toot

[ColinD]

20 minutes ago, toot said:

The difference with an UpMiiCitigo on petrol is that you can stick 2 x 10 litre cans of go go juice in the boot. 

True, although with seats down, bike in the back, tent, climbing gear there may of been enough space   I just drove it like I owned it to eeek out the range. Only the steep hills, quite handy on the single track in the north west. Espcially since NC500 is a thing. Yes your vehicle has reverse, yes that bit of ground behind it a passing place,... tell you what I'll demonstrate... she was small but very terrier like  

[cheezemonkhai]

If you’re looking at the i5 have you looked at the ev6?

 

Now I’ve been in it for a while and got used to an “automatic” plus regen braking it’s pretty good.

 

Add to that the 800v battery means charging isn’t such a big deal.

 

Biggest issue is planning when you have to be somewhere by a specific time and your charge could be 30 minutes or 2 hours depending on availability and reliability of the chargers.

[Luckypants]

20 hours ago, ColinD said:

@wyx087 super thanks. I feel a 'test' drive of the tesla would be greatly improved with a 30mins in the car before you move session.

 

Using ABRP on various trips I'd do, into north wales, lakes, scotland there isn't a lot in it, cost or time wise. Trade a bit of cost in the tesla charge but gain some time as faster than the public 50kWh the i5/enyaq would have to use. Little munro 4 day road trip plan. Does not account for overnight, although highly likey to be a bothy, tent, or hut with three pin max. ModelY RWD vs Ionic5 RWD. The extra range is moot once in the highlands, based on charger location. Peace of mind to have some in reserve. However I coped perfectly well with a citigo bobbing about on a 200ish mile range of petrol fuel and there are almost as few petrol stations as electric. As i discvoered in MidWales last summer, petrol stations close at 6pm on weekends. The EV sites were open, oh the irony as my fuel light blinked away trying to make 35 on the computer make 40 to a tesco.

If you charge at 20% battery you are missing out on a significant portion of your range AND the fastest part of the charge curve.. Much better to get down to 5% or thereabouts for your intermediate charges for a faster journey. I get having a good buffer in the highlands where you might be scuppered if a charger isn't working, but on the major road network it isn't needed.

[ColinD]

@cheezemonkhai yep, was the first one I hoped to see on the list. However in reality going and looking; I dare not before I might of just gone for it myself... anyhow the spreadsheet buying, scoring... it lost out on the bootspace. The sister car ionic5 has the trick rear seat slide. SWMBO wasn't totally comfortable in the ev6, she was in the niro so I was disapointed on a few counts. IF the GT was an option, I might of pressed her to try more

@Luckypants thanks, I did know that. I was being lazy in planning, I'd done a base up to perth on 10%, then various loops from there out ot the highlands. I pretty much always go that way now to avoid loch lomond and even the callendar roads. I'll redo. SWMBO however even missing out on the fastest, ie a compromised time... she and thus we're happy with the time spent to charge. At least on paper. We do stop alot more often now post various op's. I was even thinking, rather than the crossword or a suduko puzzle, I could go for a walk, ride, jog... try to embrace the make use of my time vs seeing it as a loss.

SWMBO asked this morning, I am still wanting electric over phev. I paused for a moment, then said no lets do ev, I think it works ( just ). It's a 4 year lease. Worst case we keep my superb or it's traded in scala/fabia estate. Ideally we'd get her old focus lease, but they want silly money for it, like above WBAC/Motorway, a marked changed from 4 years back where it was peanuts compared to the market.

Thanks for the input and thoughts, really, really helpful. Let's see what falls out of the testing of the next few... then it will boil down to tesla or ...

[Luckypants]

Fair enough Colin. My experience of a long range EV (77kWh ID.4) in Scotland has been positive. Last summer holiday was around 900 miles in the North around Sutherland and Skye. We frequently travel to the Borders.  The situation in North Wales is improving quickly now, especially destination charging - I live in the area so this is first hand.

Edited 5 June, 2023 by Luckypants

[Ootohere]

Things are changing for the better in Scotland as in higher charging tariffs and overstay penalties and less are hogging chargers.

 

Sadly more and more older chargers can not be relied on and CPS / SWARCO are more useless than they were and unable to communicate with chargers and say they can not start them remotely.

 

BP Pulse chargers are a PITA even when you have credit on a mobile and prepared to pay,  thank goodness for Ionity or others that work, or Tesla Superchargers for those using them.

For me the go to reliable is PodPoint @ a Tesco or LIDL or an Instavolt.

 

I spend quite a lot of time at Rapid chargers and too long at Fast chargers because i can not get on a Rapid charger.

I spend a lot of time trying to get through to CPS (Swarco in Broughty Ferry)  reporting faults or trying to get them to start a charger.

All sessions this year do not show, and not all actually get charged on my account at chargers that you do pay at.

Edited 5 June, 2023 by toot

[wyx087]

Have a read online of review of your local Tesla service centre reviews. There's reports of difference in quality of service from different service centre. For example, I've received great service from London Park Royal, but people in Scotland seems to be left with bad experience. 

 

https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds=53.84524719741405%2C-0.5500028738281215%2C52.98008154617668%2C-2.3050687917968715&zoom=10&filters=service&location=sheffield2

[lol-lol]

18 hours ago, toot said:

Things are changing for the better in Scotland as in higher charging tariffs and overstay penalties and less are hogging chargers.

 

Sadly more and more older chargers can not be relied on and CPS / SWARCO are more useless than they were and unable to communicate with chargers and say they can not start them remotely.

 

BP Pulse chargers are a PITA even when you have credit on a mobile and prepared to pay,  thank goodness for Ionity or others that work, or Tesla Superchargers for those using them.

For me the go to reliable is PodPoint @ a Tesco or LIDL or an Instavolt.

 

I spend quite a lot of time at Rapid chargers and too long at Fast chargers because i can not get on a Rapid charger.

I spend a lot of time trying to get through to CPS (Swarco in Broughty Ferry)  reporting faults or trying to get them to start a charger.

All sessions this year do not show, and not all actually get charged on my account at chargers that you do pay at.

 

Wow, the CO2 is about the weight of the car.  Impressive figure.

I presume their is free sessions in there which brings the average to 17p per kWh so about 5 p per miles if one worked on 3.4 miles per kWh which is about the average for my Zoe anyways between winter ie about 2.8 -to 3, and summer 4 to 4.4 kWh. 

Other standout figure to me is your average size of charge is 10 kWh which I presume is some freebie charges at location on fast chargers rather than rapid.

 

The Corsa-e is a prettier car than the Zoe, and it charges slower on AC but probably faster on AC ie up to 22 kWh where available, but I wonder how your experience had been different with a 52 kWh rather than 45 kWh battery ?  Are there many Zoe's in northern Scotland  ? I presume they do not get the Nordic battery heating pack which was not offered in the UK and was not an option as far as I know which is a shame.

 

Interest data thanks.