Are garages insured to drive taxis ?

[Brian15]

Tried to book my private hire car in yesterday with a local garage , as soon as I mentioned it was used as a taxi he told me they were unable to work on it as they wouldn’t be insured to test drive it. If I was able to be present at the time then that would be fine.

He told most garages are either unaware or just ignore it

loads *******s or is he right ? 

[mac11irl]

sounds like a load of *******s to me...

[Ttaskmaster]

Taxi insurance (including private hire) is not the same as normal insurance, and the conditions in which the vehicle is driven may be restricted. For example, I heard a rumour that only a licenced taxi driver can drive the taxi, meaning that a spouse would not be insured, so neither would be the garage mechanic.

 

"Unlicenced drivers will be found guilty of driving a taxi or private hire vehicle without a licence if they are caught trying to solicit custom in a public place, or seen referring to their vehicle as a taxi, such as by having the word ‘taxi’ displayed on their vehicle. The penalty for operating a taxi without a licence is a fine of up to £2,500"

https://www.pdalaw.co.uk/services-for-you/road-traffic-offences/taxi-offences/

 

Also:

http://taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7886

 

The above suggests it would therefore be an offense for a mechanic to drive it, unless s/he were also a licenced taxi driver, hence requiring one to be present during the test drive.

 

 

[Ootohere]

But garages / repairers have Insurance to drive others vehicles & actually have them at or in their premises.

Taxis require servicing and likely more than Private or Commercial / Business use ones.

 

I would think a Private Hire car or Taxi owner would ask another Private Hire / Taxi owner about these sort of things.

Or their insurer or local authority. 

Edited 6 June, 2023 by toot

[Gaz]

2 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

The above suggests it would therefore be an offense for a mechanic to drive it, unless s/he were also a licenced taxi driver.....

 

Surely then no offence is being committed as the garage are not 'operating a taxi..', but driving in in relation to plying their trade of being a garage, rather than using it for hire or reward?

 

Sounds daft to me that a garage can't do a reasonable test drive of a car they've worked on.

 

Gaz

 

 

[J.R.]

They dont want to work on Taxis AKA one or more taxi drivers gave them the hump!!!

 

TPS on the other hand love taxi drivers, they may have to refuse serving the public due to planning restrictions and they too probably have been peed off with Mr Ploppys wanting to buy rubber mats and tartan rugs but they Lurv taxi drivers!!!

 

They used to sell to me using the account name "Generic counter sales" now it is "Generic Taxi" 😄

[Ttaskmaster]

1 hour ago, Gaz said:

 

Surely then no offence is being committed as the garage are not 'operating a taxi..', but driving in in relation to plying their trade of being a garage, rather than using it for hire or reward?

 

Sounds daft to me that a garage can't do a reasonable test drive of a car they've worked on.

 

Gaz

 

 

 

From the sounds of it, driving around with the word TAXI on the vehicle would be the offense, if you're not a licenced taxi driver.

You can have it in the garage for work, but you can't actually drive it out on the road even with trade plates on, unless you remove all the livery and stuff.

 

The taxi driver forum I linked to suggested that people have been prosecuted for such an offense, though of course I cannot say whethery they're just lying to eachother or what...

 

But certainly the OP's garage is not refusing the work - They just require the OP to be present on the test drive, which lends credence to it being some legal issue they know about.

[Ootohere]

@Brian15   Might come back and speak with us.   He never said TAXI he said Private Hire.  

 

In my are that is a car with a 'White Plate' maybe and not a TAXI.     Pre-Booked, hired, School runs etc, not stopping picking up fares if hailed. 

[Ttaskmaster]

1 hour ago, toot said:

@Brian15   Might come back and speak with us.   He never said TAXI he said Private Hire.  

 

"Unlicenced drivers will be found guilty of driving a taxi or private hire vehicle without a licence if they are caught trying to solicit custom in a public place, or seen referring to their vehicle as a taxi, such as by having the word ‘taxi’ displayed on their vehicle."

 

In other words, if it looks like a taxi OR PRIVATE HIRE VEHICLE, then it may constitute an offense if you're driving it around without being approriately licenced.

Both types require the licence.

 

 

[Ootohere]

May, might, could but will it?

That is why people cover or remove 'The words'.  TAXI or the Sign.  Why 'Taxi' used to light up when you were 'Free for business' 'All night mister'.

 

'Trying to solicit custom'   

 That is like the oldest profession,  it is not standing on the kerb that is the issue, it is 'Trying to solicit custom'. 

[@Lee]

Phone the local councils MoT test centre if it's not been closed due to (insert reason here) and ask them. 

Taxis and private hire vehicles are licensed by the local council so surely they would know.

Or ask a taxi/ private hire vehicle owner/ operator. 

[Ttaskmaster]

15 hours ago, toot said:

May, might, could but will it?

According to the solicitors' own wording, it IS an offence and you WILL be found guilty. They go on to say that driving an unlicenced taxi (or private hire vehicle) wil automatically invalidate your licence, which then also leaves you open to charges of driving without insurance.

So that's potentially three prosecutions from the one offense:

• Driving without a valid driving licence
• Driving a taxi without being a licenced taxi driver
• Driving without valid insurance

 

But will it? According to the Taxi Drivers forum, it already has. In the anecdotes, it was typically a taxi driver's spouse just borrowing the private hire vehicle to nip down the shops.

 

However - Further reading yielded this:

 

"The Town Police Clauses Act 1847
Section 46 of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 (drivers not to act without first obtaining a licence)
shall not apply to a person driving a hackney carriage licensed under that Act for the purpose of or in connection with

(a) any test of the mechanical condition or fitness of the hackney carriage or its equipment carried out for the purposes of [section 45 of the Road Traffic Act 1988] (tests of satisfactory condition of vehicles other than goods vehicles) or for the purposes of any requirements with respect to such condition or fitness imposed by or under any other enactment"

 

I'd say that if it applies to a hackney carriage, it applies to a private hire vehicle.

So as a point of debate, the OP may well want to show the garage this legislation (in full, ideally) and see what they say... They're not outright refusing to do the work anyway, so presumably they'd be open to reading this?

[Ootohere]

'Solicitor'   'Hackney Carriage / Cab' .    The OP is asking about a Private Hire vehicle and getting it serviced & put TAXI in the title.

 

How a drama can get turned into a crisis.   

All around me are Taxis & Private hire cars & Executive private hire vehicles, airport transport, Uber etc and garages that service them.   

 

Real World, but not a City just a Local Authority and not England & not 'Taxis / Hackney Cabs.'

Edited 6 June, 2023 by toot

[Ttaskmaster]

Well, the OP's garage says it's an insurance matter for them.

So unless you have some kind of legal documentation, ideally that garage's specific insurance policy, we can't say either way.

 

Just because people around you all do something, doesn't mean it's legal. If it were, we'd not need 'uninsured driver' clauses in our insurance policies.

 

 

[Ootohere]

I understand what someone at the OP,s garage says.

I understand insurance for the business or  even family or partners of a Taxi / Private hire vehicle needing to have insurance cover or maybe not allowed to drive a Licensed vehicle for Private Use.

 

I know that all Mechanics / Techs that work on Taxis / Private hire cars are not Licensed Taxi or drivers with a taxi badge. 

 

 

 

[@Lee]

Quote

There are exemptions to this rule, but only in respect of licensed taxis. Persons who are allowed to drive a licensed taxi, without firstly obtaining the appropriate driver licence, are: 
 an applicant taking a driving test in order to obtain their taxi driver licence 

 a mechanic road testing a licensed taxi. 

These exemptions do not apply to private hire vehicles.

https://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/media/1111/New-driver-application-Guidelines/pdf/V8-current-guidelines-updated-april-2018.pdf?m=637158224527670000

Also scroll down to page 12 - inspection/ servicing etc. Seems it's down to council MoT testers.

Edited 6 June, 2023 by @Lee

[Ootohere]

Exemptions on page 3 covers it just fine for Taxi's.. 

Not spotted the 'Private hire' yet.

Edited 6 June, 2023 by toot

[@Lee]

I don't know what "These exemptions do not apply to private hire vehicles" means specifically
Perhaps the private hire people would take their cars to a main dealer to preserve the FSH of their car and perhaps they could also take it to a VAT registered indy and the mechs/ techs at those places can road test the private hire vehicles? 

Edited 6 June, 2023 by @Lee

[Ootohere]

As in that 2nd page i screenshot, The servicing and maintenance to manufacturers instructions and suitable records might well have Private Hire cars at garages with all the gear, more than ideas and no Taxi Licence.   But obviously they would need insured to drive Customers vehicles & work on them. 

Taxi's and warranties are an issue that many would want nothing to do with.

 

Back when AdBlue and the other similar systems came out there were Dundee Car Dealers that had new buyers sign a document that they had been told the cars were not suitable for use as Taxis. 

They liked their Peugeot, Citroen, Renault etc and sitting with cars ticking over, the cars didn't like it.

There were those buying cars privately or leasing and thinking they could just clock them to hide the mileage but they ended up with cars that were crap for their needs.

The Fluid Bags were changed at the Services not just topped up like you do with AdBlue.

Edited 6 June, 2023 by toot

[@Lee]

There is/ was a specific section on here for owners of PH vehicles and Taxis known as 'The Taxi Rank'. 

There still is but it's not very lively https://www.briskoda.net/forums/forum/326-the-taxi-rank/

Edited 6 June, 2023 by @Lee

[Ootohere]

Used seldom.

Not used by some that run Taxis / Private hire cars and then when the engine or gearbox give up & they are claiming off a warranty then say, 'Not me, i stopped using it for that'. 

[Ttaskmaster]

31 minutes ago, @Lee said:

I don't know what "These exemptions do not apply to private hire vehicles" means specifically

 

It's pretty clear.... No licence from this LA, no driving the 'private hire vehicle', no exceptions and no exemptions.

So again, I presume that's why the garage want the OP present, as he'll be the one driving during the test while the mechanic rides along.

 

 

[@Lee]

On 06/06/2023 at 18:25, Ttaskmaster said:

 

It's pretty clear.... No licence from this LA, no driving the 'private hire vehicle', no exceptions and no exemptions.

So again, I presume that's why the garage want the OP present, as he'll be the one driving during the test while the mechanic rides along.

 

 

Except the ones you mentioned a few days ago.

Take the plate, signage off etc and it's no longer a vehicle and owner plying for trade or soliciting is it. Can PH vehicle owners not remove signage from cars they own to go on family holidays in cars they own? 

Has nobody yet called a LA to ask? 

[Ootohere]

Amazing the lack of contributions from members that operate Private Hire vehicles.

 

No idea if any amendments was made back from this in 2014.

New Clause 9 - Private hire vehicles_ circumstances in which driver’s licence required_ 25 Mar 2014_ Public Bill Committees - TheyWorkForYou.mhtml

[Ttaskmaster]

12 hours ago, @Lee said:

Except the ones you mentioned a few days ago.

Take the plate, signage off etc and it's no longer a vehicle and owner plying for trade or soliciting is it. Can PH vehicle owners not remove signage from cars they own to go on family holidays in cars they own? 

Has nobody yet called a LA to ask? 

Except that in the Wiltshire regulations that you posted, it states a private hire vehicle remains a licenced vehicle 24 hours a day, regardless of use, and can only be driven by the holder of an appropriate licence.

I did find some regs for a council in Norfolk that expressly states they permit spouses and certain other parties to drive PH vehicles, while others expressly forbid it just like Wiltshire.

 

The conclusion then seems that it varies from council to council, and the 2014 amendments posted by Toot were not universally adopted, at least by 2018.

So I would surmise the OP's mechanic works under a LA that does not permit such access.

 

@Brian15 - Any further development on this one, fella?

The Briskoda Armchair Lawyers Guild are keen to know!