This is a SEAT ibiza 6l and not Skoda fabia MK1, even though they're basically the same, so I'm trying my luck in this forum, maybe someone has dealt with the same issue here.

The car makes an annoying rattling sound over bumps and bad asphalt since I bought it a year ago and I've finally found the problem, the front brake caliper is loose and doesn't contact the brake carrier like it should, I've confirmed the issues by applying the brakes when driving and the noise stops. This car has the FS III brakes.

I found that there was slight play in the caliper, enough to cause the brake pad and caliper to bang against the carrier with every jostle and bump. The caliper should only be moving in and out along the sliding pins, but since there is a soft bushing around the pins it kind of pivots slightly up and down allowing a tiny bit of movement between the caliper and carrier which makes a huge racket when driving. All parts are genuine VW parts as the car was serviced at a dealership when the brakes were changed last.

https://imgur.com/a/L9ml4wy

My initial thoughts were worn out or loose pins and bushing, but upon closer inspection the pins where correctly torqued (28 Nm) and they were in immaculate condition with no rust or gouging on the surface, they also had a very tight fit (almost interference) inside the bushing with no play so I doubt that's the problem. The official SEAT (VW) repair manual makes no mention of any lubricant whatsoever, neither on the sliding pins or the sliding surfaces of the brake pads, only a thorough cleaning and rust removal. The brake pads also fit snugly on the caliper with no movement so springs seem to be intact.

https://imgur.com/a/IW6pPdE

Are these calipers designed to wiggle around a little? Any suggestions to fix the noise?

The first thing you could do is put grease on the contact points between the carrier, brake pads and caliper. This may not get rid of the noise completely but if it changes at all, you'll know for sure that is what the source of the noise is. 

 

My car, a Fabia vRS, has done something similar like yourself, since I got the car but I believe mine is the CV joints, the brake set up being the next type up from the one on your Ibiza.

25 minutes ago, HeavyMetalRich said:

The first thing you could do is put grease on the contact points between the carrier, brake pads and caliper. This may not get rid of the noise completely but if it changes at all, you'll know for sure that is what the source of the noise is. 

 

My car, a Fabia vRS, has done something similar like yourself, since I got the car but I believe mine is the CV joints, the brake set up being the next type up from the one on your Ibiza.

 

I'm planning to put some copper grease at the mating surfaces as a temporary fix and give the brakes a thorough wire brush and clean.

 

I'm very sure that's where the sound is coming from as I can elicit the same clanking noise by banging on the tires with the wheels off the ground, also the noise disappears when I tap the brake while driving so I'm almost certain that's where the noise is.

I think I'd be suspecting the brake pads. The anti-rattle springs on the back of them might be missing/damaged. Not sure what your pads look like but some of them have a spring clip which pushes inside the piston and can rattle if it's not a firm fit. Also it's not unheard of to have pattern pads where the metal backing plate is a tiny bit too small. I somehow doubt the cause is the actual caliper as I've never come across it before with these types of calipers. There is a tiny bit of flex built into the rubber inserts that contain the bushes.

I think these are yours. Those springs on the back need to be satisfactory....

 

1 minute ago, TMB said:

I think I'd be suspecting the brake pads. The anti-rattle springs on the back of them might be missing/damaged. Not sure what your pads look like but some of them have a spring clip which pushes inside the piston and can rattle if it's not a firm fit. Also it's not unheard of to have pattern pads where the metal backing plate is a tiny bit too small. I somehow doubt the cause is the actual caliper as I've never come across it before with these types of calipers. There is a tiny bit of flex built into the rubber inserts that contain the bushes.

 

The brake pads sit firmly attacked to the caliper with the springs, I've checked and the springs are intact. As you mention there is slight play built into the bushings as they are made of rubber which in my case is causing the entire caliper to wiggle. I've thought about greasing the sliding surfaces of the pads but that's not a permanent solution come winter and that would have to be done every few weeks as the grease would just wear away. Is there any sort of coating or adhesive that would work to reduce noise? I'm out of options.

The only thing I use on the pins/bushes is ceramic brake grease. I know some people use copper grease too. It's a bit of a puzzler if it's not the pads. Are you sure it's not the drop links as they are notorious for knocking/rattling?

Edited 11 July, 20232 yr by TMB

2 minutes ago, TMB said:

The only thing I use on them is ceramic brake grease. I know some people use copper grease too. It's a bit of a puzzler if it's not the pads. Are you sure it's not the drop links as they are notorious for knocking/rattling?

 

I am pretty much certain the brakes are the culprit, I've lifted the car and tugged, grabbed and hammered on every part of the subframe, suspension, wheels, exhaust, engine mounts you name it and none of them make noise. I did confirm the issue by applying the brakes and the noise stopped so it's definitely the brakes. This car is 2004 with original calipers so I guess this might just be a case of old brakes that are noisy but there should be a fix for this. I did notice some of the other brake systems mentioned in the service manual like Lucas, FN3 or Brembo use different type of retainer springs for pads and calipers so this might very well be a design issue.

Just out of interest, do you know the brand of the pads you have?

9 minutes ago, TMB said:

Just out of interest, do you know the brand of the pads you have?

 

They're genuine VW brake pads, this is the number on the back JZW 698 151.

5 minutes ago, Carproblems said:

They're genuine VW brake pads, this is the number on the back JZW 698 151.

 

👍

Inner and outer pads definitely in correct positions?

As per one of your posted images, clips are different.

 

Here's a photo of a pair of non-genuine pads that shows the clip difference clearly. Inner/piston pad on left.

 

Edited 12 July, 20232 yr by Breezy_Pete

The calipers are designed to float on the pins so that they find their own position, the geometry of the brakes are dictated by the fit of the pads in the carrier. Think of the caliper as a clamp only, it isn't experiencing any of the braking force at all.

 

The ARB bushes are possibly worn out, the ARB drop links or the console bushes may have failed, the braking test you've applied is a symptom not the cause.

6 hours ago, Breezy_Pete said:

Inner and outer pads definitely in correct positions?

As per one of your posted images, clips are different.

 

Here's a photo of a pair of non-genuine pads that shows the clip difference clearly. Inner/piston pad on left.

 

2 hours ago, sepulchrave said:

I did check again there seems to be some play to the inner caliper (piston side) compared to the outer one which isn't budging, I might have to recheck the springs. Looking in other forums most people seem to blame bent springs on the inner pads because they're tricky to install. I will have to take apart the brakes.

 

2 hours ago, sepulchrave said:

The calipers are designed to float on the pins so that they find their own position, the geometry of the brakes are dictated by the fit of the pads in the carrier. Think of the caliper as a clamp only, it isn't experiencing any of the braking force at all.

 

The ARB bushes are possibly worn out, the ARB drop links or the console bushes may have failed, the braking test you've applied is a symptom not the cause.

I have double and triple checked the ARB and bushings, I can elicit the exact same noise by wiggling the calipers and banging on the wheels with a hammer while they're off the ground, as mentioned in other comments I'll have to check the alignment of pad springs.

4 minutes ago, Carproblems said:

I will have to take apart the brakes

You should be able to see just by looking at the outside face of the caliper with its visible outer springs. Nothing should need disassembling if the springs showing there look like the right hand pad springs in my photo.

Update, I've checked the brake pad springs and the inner one was indeed a little loose so I removed it, bent the pins outwards a little so they grab on to the piston a more and now they fit better, but the noise hasn't gone away as there's still slight play in the caliper.

 

I ended up putting one layer of duct tape on the sliding surfaces between caliper and carrier and that has gotten rid of the noise and reduced some play, although it's only a temporary solution and the noise still appears occasionally when I drive over potholes. I'll try some Liqui Moly brake anti-squeal paste hopefully that might resolve the problem (at least for a long while) but we'll see once I get the paste.

Edited 12 July, 20232 yr by Carproblems

Not all VaG pads are the same quality. I went to buy some genuine pads for my Fabia with the FS lll calipers. I was offered what the parts chap called the basics range. The company of origin was India and the pads material looked really suspect with cracks and lumpy bits. 
I declined and bought some Pagid from ECP instead. Overall, these looked much better quality and I have had no problems with any of the rattling described plus the braking !is pretty good tool!
 

Take care with getting copper grease near any of the rubber parts on the calliper as it will make them expand and go floppy. 

The pad part number starting JZW as stated by the OP a few posts earlier indicates exactly this 'ECO' variety. As in economy rather than ecology, I think.

 

The front brake calipers marked FSIII for the 256x22mm front brake discs are made by ATE, so it makes sense to use ATE brake pads especially when they are available for around £25.

 

FSIII front brake calipers for 256x22mm front brake discs (ATE brake system)

ATE 13046071172

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/ate/956202?search=ATE Brake pad set (13.0460-7117.2)

 

ATE 13046071172

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ATE-13046071172-Disc-Brake-Shoe/dp/B0038N2JLO/ref=sr_1_1

 

Edited 22 July, 20232 yr by Carlston

I used ATE discs with the Pagid pads. No probs and certainly better than the Brembo discs and pads that juddered. 

Apologies, I skim read replies.

 

Has anyone mentioned caliper carrier bolts lose? Sounded like worn out ARB bush but only on braking on/off.

 

 

What about new rubber inserts for guide pins?

There should not be any distance. Maybe item with "!" is totally worn.

3 hours ago, indars said:

What about new rubber inserts for guide pins?

 

Why do you need those, they don't do anything?