Superb Scout edition harsh suspension

[Tonies]

 

On 17/02/2024 at 22:59, Carlston said:

The Bilstein B6 shock absorbers for the Passat B8 Alltrack are probably a little longer than the Bilstein B6 shock absorbers for the standard ride height car. This is because the front shock absorbers on the standard ride height car use bump stops with a 70mm height, whereas the front shock absorbers on the increased ride height car use bump stops with a 90mm height. So if the front shock absorbers on the standard ride height and increased ride height cars were the same, using 90mm bump stops would reduce the front suspension travel by 20mm on the increased ride height car. Hence, it would make sense for the increased ride height car to have longer front shock absorbers than the standard ride height car.

 

 

That one sounds reasonable and expected to be. However, my doubts were exactly on the techincal side and due to the 100% missing technical specifications from Bilstein. Its hell of a mess with the details, fitments and part numbers. Theoritically - how do you think that the differences in the shock lenght.bump stops is going to be feel in the real driving of the car? 

 

On 17/02/2024 at 22:59, Carlston said:

The 151mm ground clearance for the Superb MK3 Scout seems incorrect, if the Passat B8 Alltrack is 174mm.

 

The Superb MK3 Scout is clearly increased ride height just like the Passat B8 Alltrack. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have almost the same front and rear springs as the Passat B8 Alltrack.

 

I think you are right - the 151mm height is given for the standard suspenions but all the online catalogs are just copy pasting stuff. It is very difficult to find a correct data. So the clearance should be 166mm - this is still a difference with the Passat Alltrack but this is due to the difference in the used tyres. I think we can add some 10mm more for the passat only from the tyres.

Superb 235-45-18

Passat 245-45-18

 

 

One of my latests question and theories.

 

How would you interpretate that when we load the car 2 adults, 1 toddler and full boot space, the car ride and handling become terrible. All the road imperfections are being feel much harder and uncomfortable. The car leans much more. Does his behavior correspond to weak shocks and stiff/longer springs ? And that should be much better with a Bilstein B6?

[MarkyG82]

1 hour ago, Tonies said:

 

I think you are right - the 151mm height is given for the standard suspenions but all the online catalogs are just copy pasting stuff. It is very difficult to find a correct data. So the clearance should be 166mm - this is still a difference with the Passat Alltrack but this is due to the difference in the used tyres. I think we can add some 10mm more for the passat only from the tyres.

Superb 235-45-18

Passat 245-45-18

 

 

That's only 5mm ride difference, not 10mm. 

[Carlston]

3 hours ago, MarkyG82 said:

 

That's only 5mm ride difference, not 10mm. 

 

The difference in sidewall height between the 235/45R18 and 245/45R18 tyre sizes is 4.5mm, or 5mm rounded up to the nearest millimetre.

 

Sidewall height

235/45R18 = 105.75mm

245/45R18 = 110.25mm

[Carlston]

6 hours ago, Tonies said:

One of my latest question and theories.

 

How would you interpret that when we load the car 2 adults, 1 toddler and full boot space, the car ride and handling become terrible. All the road imperfections are being feel much harder and uncomfortable. The car leans much more. Does his behaviour correspond to weak shocks and stiff/longer springs? And that should be much better with a Bilstein B6?

 

It sounds like the car's shock absorbers aren't very good. I expect the Bilstein B6 Alltrack shock absorbers would transform the ride and handling. If the ride is a little firm, it would be a simple task to change down to 17" wheels. Perhaps 225/55R17 7Jx17 ET40 (oversize tyre size on standard rims) or 215/55R17 6.5Jx17 ET38 (standard tyres on Kodiaq rims). 225/55R17 is an Alltrack tyre size.

 

6.5Jx17 ET38 5/112 57.1 steel rim (from Kodiaq)

https://eshop.skoda-auto.cz/cs_CZ/plechovy-disk-17-/p/5QF601027J+03C

 

Ratikon 7Jx17 ET40 5/112 57.1 alloy rim (from Kodiaq, same specification as Superb MK3)

https://eshop.skoda-auto.cz/cs_CZ/alu-kolo-ratikon-17-kodiaq/p/565071497A+8Z8

 

Edited 19 February by Carlston

[Tonies]

@CarlstonI just receive a reply from Bilstein 10 days after I sent my request:
 

Quote

Thank you for the request.
Unfortunately we have to inform you, that we don't have a BILSTEIN solution in the catalog for the mentioned vehicle with option Scout.
The BILSTEIN B6 are offered for the standard suspension only in this case.
We inform you, that all possibilities of the vehicle platform logic are already taken into consideration within the catalog.
Thank you for your understanding.

 

I explicetly asked them to tell me what are the difference between Alltrack B6 shocks and Superb B6 standard shocks... So the passat Alltrack has a green light to use the B6 but the Skoda Superb doesnt ...Hows that possible...

[MartiniB]

@Tonies

answer ". . in catalog . ." clearly shows, they haven't made deeper research

same as Eibach answered me, stiffer springs with standard height doesn't exist

 

i played lottery, ordered Eibach Pro front springs from Audi Q2 and they were perfect (together with B6 Damptronic)

 

[Carlston]

7 hours ago, Tonies said:

I just receive a reply from Bilstein 10 days after I sent my request.
 

I explicitly asked them to tell me what are the differences between Alltrack B6 shocks and Superb B6 standard shocks... So the passat Alltrack has a green light to use the B6 but the Skoda Superb doesn't ...How's that possible...

 

Until recently, the Bilstein B6 standard ride height shock absorbers weren't listed in the Bilstein catalogue for the Superb MK3. So they were saying exactly the same thing about those, even though the Bilstein B6 shock absorbers for the Passat B8 also fitted the Superb MK3.

 

Edited 20 February by Carlston

[MarkyG82]

This is common for the B6.  When I got a set for my octavia I was certain the front shocks were 50mm but the mechanic said they should be 55mm.  Ended up with a shock that fitted a different spec (1.4 dsg I think, mine was 20.tdi dsg).  Confirmed with bilstein that the valving was very close to the 55mm version for the petrol manual vrs.  They then ended up listing a part for the 50mm cars with 2.0tdi.

[MartiniB]

this page provides dimensions info, just change number at the end of link

https://www.bilstein-shocks.co.uk/products/35-229872

[Tonies]

56 minutes ago, MartiniB said:

this page provides dimensions info, just change number at the end of link

https://www.bilstein-shocks.co.uk/products/35-229872

Nothing again for the Alltrack shocks... Only the front says 55mm which is listed everywhere. I can imagine that all of the website are importng data from the offical bilstein database.

[MartiniB]

@Tonies

do research about differences for 2.0 T*I Passat standard and Alltrack and same for Octavias,
for Superb will unlikely to be any different

 

look to example table, how i managed to guess right(for me) springs, stiffer without lowering

-> https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/485647-bilstein-b6-dcc-shock-absorbers-available-at-last/page/3/#comment-5625462

 

 

Edited 21 February by MartiniB

[Tonies]

6 hours ago, MartiniB said:

@Tonies

do research about differences for 2.0 T*I Passat standard and Alltrack and same for Octavias,
for Superb will unlikely to be any different

 

look to example table, how i managed to guess right(for me) springs, stiffer without lowering

-> https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/485647-bilstein-b6-dcc-shock-absorbers-available-at-last/page/3/#comment-5625462

 

 

 

The above tables doesnt mean much for me. As far as I can see there are lowering springs. I am trying to stick with the OE height - i.e. Raised than the standard one.

 

Just receive another response from Bilstein team that states - the Scout was tested and they did not have any shocks for it 😞

 

Quote

We are very well aware about vehicle platform logics, like MQB in this case.
Lower and upper mounting points, strut diameter and stabilizer link mounting point position however are only a few important characteristics.
Please be informed that there is a big number of alterations possible within this logic like spring seat height, collapsed and extended length and spring lenghts used for these cases. All this corresponds directly to the suspensions geometry and therefore the transmission and drive train specifications used in the mentioned vehicles.
Unfortunataly we do not have a solution in the catalog for the mentioned Skoda Superb Scout which we have tested or we could recommend.
Thank you for your understanding.

 

Its a non ending nightmare with this suspension...

Edited 21 February by Tonies

[Carlston]

1 hour ago, Tonies said:

 

The above tables don't mean much to me. As far as I can see there are lowering springs. I am trying to stick with the OE height - i.e. Raised than the standard one.

 

Just receive another response from Bilstein team that states - the Scout was tested and they did not have any shocks for it

 

Its a non ending nightmare with this suspension...

 

Bilstein haven't given you any specifics about why they wouldn't fit or be suitable.

 

If the Scout was tested, why weren't the Bilstein B6 shock absorbers for the Passat B8 Alltrack suitable bearing in mind that both cars use almost the same springs...so close that Kilen/Lesjofors sell the same front springs to use on either car.

 

Until recently, I think Bilstein would have said the same thing about the Superb MK3 with standard ride height. Bilstein can't recommend anything unless one of their engineers signs it off as safe...and that clearly hasn't happened.

 

Edited 21 February by Carlston

[Tonies]

Yeah, I totally understand your logic and I agree with you. Its just that I am feeling confused to do something and the manufacturer of the product told me that it is not suitable. That is why I am trying to see all points of view. 

[MarkyG82]

Apologies if this has been suggested already. Could you take a look at the B4 models for all track and superb scout to see if they are similar. If they are then I would say the B6 for all track will work with the scout.

[MartiniB]

11 hours ago, Tonies said:

The above tables doesnt mean much for me. As far as I can see there are lowering springs.

that tables show example of method (tables have been updated today),

by compare different MQB models with different weights within same model, comes conclusion -

when springs from weightiest Superb are suggested for lighter Q2, then springs from weightier Q2 also match for Superb

 

11 hours ago, Tonies said:

I am trying to stick with the OE height

i had exact same challenge, add stiffness without lose height

 

p.s.

just one huge difference, lottery ticket for springs is lot cheaper than for shocks 😞

if delivery times aren't too long, you can split it to half, by order just one side
or do search someone with Bilsteins B6 on Passat Alltrack and make careful measure

 

[Tonies]

Hello All,

 

There is still nothing official from my side. I disucss the options with big service dealer. I request from them to provide a Passat Alltrack B6 dampers. However, after check from their side it seems the need to import it because there are no quantity available in the country. I think due to the exotic type of that product and the specific of the Skoda/VW only suitable it was never in stock. 

The problem is that the service cannot confirm that the Alltrack dampers will fit to my Skoda Scout and if they dont fit we cannot return them back...

So now, what I thought I can order the from autodoc and as far as I can see there is a return option. So after they arrive we can easily see if they fit to mine. However, the problem and the final results will be known at least after they are fit to the car and that means we cannot return it anymore. 

Lately, I am thinking for this - what if my spring rate is not suitable for such a thought damper as B6 ? IF the spring is too weak and the damper is on the hard side?

May be I should think for an option to change the springs also. For example what If I put spring that is used on Alltrack and that should mean that the dampers will fit 100% right?

 

I did some work over the excell table below with the suitable dampers for B6 and B4:

 

May be when the info is presented a little bit better we can choose the most appropriate product. 

I still think that  B6 35-273806 fronts and Bilstein B6 24-267137 rears are most suitable for increased height suspension.

As far as B4 - I think it clearly matches the Skoda Superb rought road package so they will fit 100% but I dont know if I will be happy with them.

[MartiniB]

i have already ordered Bilstein B6 Damptronic 23-254343 and 20-254353

+ Eibach Pro Kit E10-79-013-03-22

which originally is offered for Kodiaq and contains F11-85-043-03-FA front, F11-79-013-01-RA rear springs

 

crossing fingers this lottery will be same successful as my previous experiment with ŠS Mk3 FWD 220ps

on which i installed F11-85-043-02-FA (from weightier Audi Q2) and F11-79-008-01-HA (from weightier ŠS Mk3 AWD)

 

i can't promise a quick report of result, in far away c19 years, parts for the front axle i waited 5 months and 13 months for rear

 

p.s.

Kit were chose just because price, 190e for all four, opposite 270e when ordering front + rear

 

[Tonies]

 Yeah, just to clarify that I am looking only for non-DCC solutions so I dont know how relevant will be your feedback. I suppose that B6 with DCC is totally different league.