Felica 1.3 - Something is 'on' but ignition is off!

[robchap]

Hi all.

 

I have a felicia 1998 1.3mpi with an annoying problem just started.  It sounds like it may be the blower/heater, and it is running even with the ignition off and no key in. The only way to stop it is to disconnect the battery. I have looked around the guides section but nothing mentions this issue.  I have attached a vid of the sound and where it appears to be coming from as it is only audible from within the car.

 

So far I have pulled the all the fuses, the relays and disconnected two wiring blocks that seem to connect to what I assume is the blower (see image) - yet the problem persists! Changing the settings on the blower controls seem to make no differance either. Only disconnecting the batt stops it.

 

Might be worth mentioning I actually fitted a new battery saturday, and the problem did seem to stop - however when I returned to go out a few hours later the problem was back and it was humming away again and has not stopped since.

 

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated as I'm a bit of duffer when electronics are involved.

 

Apologies if this is the wrong section, if so could a mod please move it?

 

 

[Papez]

Yes, the two blocks are heater blower and the resistor block. So it's not the blower motor.

 

As of what it is - I have no idea. All devices in the interior should be disconnected with fuses removed. And I don't think that bad contact would be this audible without causing a fire. Could it be some incorrectly wired device added by a previous owner and hidden behind the dashboard? 

[D.FYLAKTOS]

Something relative but not the same, 2 times i the oast i had a continuous noise ("tzzzzz") from engine bay even when the car was off and the key removed.

I could hear it while i was sitting inside, he made me mad because i couldn't let it like this all night.

What it was? From the car alarm a plug from it's ground, due to moisture was a bit wet and was causing that cicada noise in it's contact.

 

Did the previous owner had installed a device like GPS Tracking?

[D.FYLAKTOS]

@robchap If you had a/c i could say it's the air recycle motor, i had a problem in the past with it causing noise thst i could hear it because was stuck in On position.

 

Nevertheless i would unplug everything and use some contact cleaner (with no oil).

I am in smartphone, i can hear it good here in work but sounds like an axis of a fan always under voltage which tries to spin it but i can't because the blades are touching something.

[nta16]

By doing what you have already shows you're certainly not a duffer.  You certainly done right by making sure the car battery is fully charged (changed your case) before trying to diagnose an electrical (or engine starting) issue but do bear in mind a battery is just a store and the store can be emptied even if new so disconnecting the battery until you have resolved this isn't a bad idea.  I don't think you need it but you can buy things like post disconnectors for long term issues or security or storage, one for example only. -  https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/quick-disconnect-battery-terminal  

 

I can hear why you thought it might be the blower motor but if you disconnected the power supply to the blower motor then it shouldn't run - unless someone has been messing about with the wiring and caused the problem.

 

D.FYLAKTOS has beat me to one of the things I was thinking, might the sound be from engine side of firewall/scuttle and possibly issues with water/damp might also cover the idea Papez suggested of others being at the wiring after the car left the factory.

 

Noises can travel and be difficult to track down their origination.  I think I would set the heater flaps to those dash vents and then block or well cover the vents to prevent that route for the noise to exit fully.

 

Have you tried lifting the bonnet to see if the noise is from that side?

Does the car have a/c?

Does the car have an alarm system fitted?

Do you have a multimeter?

Do you have access to a VW or your car model and year appropriate scan tool?

 

If you still think or find the noise is from the dash then drop down the fuses/relay board if it under dash and remove the glovebox if part of dash, to open up the dash as much as possible without disturbing too much, to be able to see and hear behind there.  You can make a crude stethoscope with a short length of hose and perhaps a funnel to the end for ear comfort and as  a speaker, or use the extension hose off a vacuum cleaner or something similar.  Or roam with your phone doing an audio recording and see if on playback you can pin down the noise more.

 

Doesn't matter for a sound recording but for future you generally get more visual information into a frame if you hold you phone at landscape instead of portrait.

 

Good luck let us know how you get on.

 

[nta16]

ETA: Perhaps a video or photos of your battery and its terminal connections, your fuse/relay board with all fuses in and perhaps if you have all clearly labelled all fuses and relays removed if  that's not a problem, under dash, scuttle are from engine side - as someone might see something different to usual or perhaps an issue(s).  It's obviously not as good as being there but photos particularly can sometimes be good (if shot reasonably) as they can be zoomed in on and see more than the naked eye.

 

Not suggesting it in this case but more than once the first thing I find is the battery or one of it's terminals are loose, the battery isn't as I was told "good" or in a good state of charge.  Then other electric connections or wires (including earths) are poor or corroded or dirty and unprotected.  Then worst is electric items or wiring done by some others.  Bad earths can cause unusual and unexpected consequences. 

 

Note, I am not an electrician of any sort or expert, in anything just had a few old cars.

 

[D.FYLAKTOS]

I have seen mechanics using a long screwdriver to spot the source of the sound, the nose touching different areas and the grip touches the ear.

 

 

 

 

In the past i faced another situation, a small hand drill for carving, the switch on the power supply (had potentiometer for adjusting the rpm) was in Off position but still i could hear a very small sound ''Zzznnn'' like the drill was try to spin (but i didn't managed).

The problem was in the switch, looked Off but wasn't 100%, a contack cleaner spray and everything OK.

 

 

 

[nta16]

Personally I'm not a big fan of the long screwdriver to your ear as your eyes are looking that way, which can be a help, or closing your eyes, in concentrating your mind on locating things, like getting a bolt through an unseen hole, but not concentrating on the long screwdriver tip in an engine bat with engine running and the long screwdriver tip could slip isn't for me (and uncomfortable on my small delicate ears  🙂).

 

This car problem should be from something that is live regardless of ignition switch position but always best not to make assumptions without full conformation from full testing.

 

Scotty should have also given a warning about that hair style.  😄

[R_U_AFA]

Don't suppose you have a tape deck radio fitted?

[D.FYLAKTOS]

[nta16]

@D.FYLAKTOS that's good, do you have the same for engine side of scuttle?

 

I was thinking if @robchap put up photos and there where differences, say from someone adding or altering things or water/damp or other things it might be noticeable especially with a good image that can be zoomed in on.

 

[D.FYLAKTOS]

51 minutes ago, nta16 said:

@D.FYLAKTOS that's good, do you have the same for engine side of scuttle?

 

You mean from fhe engine bay side?

No, some Russian sites have with the a/c blower out.

[D.FYLAKTOS]

Here are some examples:

https://www.drive2.ru/l/488977835835261519/

 

https://www.drive2.ru/l/575590764801687759/

 

https://www.drive2.ru/l/2844587/

 

The phrase for Google search is:

Снятие обдува Шкода Фелисия

 

There is a mechanism in the first switch which controls where the air will be sent (driver, windshield etc), maybe this is stuck and it's under voltage continuously.

 

[nta16]

5 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

There is a mechanism in the first switch which controls where the air will be sent (driver, windshield etc), maybe this is stuck and it's under voltage continuously.

Shouldn't that lose power with ignition off (normally).

 

[Papez]

16 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

There is a mechanism in the first switch which controls where the air will be sent (driver, windshield etc), maybe this is stuck and it's under voltage continuously.

 

That knob is fully mechanical. It moves flaps directly through Bowden cables.

[D.FYLAKTOS]

Although ancient Greeks (Aristotle and Eyclides) say it and apply it first the other people know it as:

Reductio ad absurdum.

 

Soon or later we will find it, the sound is like a fan blade which barely touches something, i think it's a metallic noise and not plastic one (for example a teflon made gear moves back and forward).

[nta16]

Listening again with cheap 'shell' (full seal and covering of ears) it does sound like a fan/propeller type sound with possibly a catch to something or wobble on bearing or bearing wobble or catching type sound.

 

Water pump(?), alternator I think are out as the engine's not running so leaves(?) blower fan or radiator cooling fan or something else if it is that type of noise.  Things that are readily accessible should be fairly easy to hear or lightly feel even perhaps see.

 

In a car you don't know the history of your suspicions may go to something away from factory fitted wiring and items to anything added or changed after the car left the factory, but these are only suspicions and could be entirely wrong.

 

Be interesting to find out what it is and the resolve.

 

Edited 27 February by nta16
missing word

[robchap]

Hi all thanks for the many respones!

 

Was hoping to get another look today, but work got in the way and no garage, so hopefully tomorrow.

 

Regarding history, My dad bought is sometime around early 2K, and was the 2nd owner. When he died in 2017 I basically inherited it. So as far as aftermarket goes it should be pretty standard. Also it is a very basic base model - not even power steering or central locking. My old man was very antitech in his vehicles.

 

I have dones a basic look around for excess damp but I can't see anything obvious, and with the miles it has driven it should have hopefully dried out - buyt the problem remains.

 

Someone asked if it has a tape player - and the answer is yes it does! However it seems fairly well secured and some distance below the area the noise is seems to come from. 

 

The thing that is making this so annoying is the fact that even with the fuses and relays out the issue is persisting, and yet everything works perfectly - all wipers, washed, lights, blowers etc work just fine. Thanks to those images posted if work allows tomorrow I will try and get the blower opened and have a good look around in side.

 

Thanks for the ideas so far,

 

Rob

[nta16]

Hi, Rob.

 

2 minutes ago, robchap said:

Also it is a very basic base model - not even power steering or central locking. My old man was very antitech in his vehicles.

Very sensible, power steering isn't usually needed in small light cars (unlike the overweight over-wheeled and tyre'd even very small cars modern cars).  Central locking just adds weight to the car and more complexity and things to go wrong and you can't just wind the windows up and down without remembering to take the keys, PITA on warm and hot days.  I'm with your dad.

 

8 minutes ago, robchap said:

I have dones a basic look around for excess damp but I can't see anything obvious, and with the miles it has driven it should have hopefully dried out - buyt the problem remains.

I was also thinking of water leaks or ingress.

 

9 minutes ago, robchap said:

Someone asked if it has a tape player - and the answer is yes it does! However it seems fairly well secured and some distance below the area the noise is seems to come from. 

That's the thing to check then - as it might be on it's own supply with wire inline fuse and a permanent live that doesn't go via the ignition switch, diy stethoscope time, the vibrations could travel (that's what sound is after all).

 

[R_U_AFA]

8 minutes ago, robchap said:

Someone asked if it has a tape player - and the answer is yes it does! However it seems fairly well secured and some distance below the area the noise is seems to come from. 

It was because I've had mine randomly go into play mode, even though theres been no cassette in. 

And this issue wouldn't be stopped by removing fuses or relays.

My only other guess would be that it's the stormtrooper on the dash😆

[nta16]

ETA: put a photo up of the "tape player" - old cassette units used to have two slots each side for oblong bar releasing keys to go into to release the side retainers so the unit could be pulled forward and out.

 

[R_U_AFA]

@nta16 

Posted at the same time as I replied 

I suppose easiest would be to pull the radio connecters block to see if noise goes.

Edited 27 February by R_U_AFA

[D.FYLAKTOS]

58 minutes ago, nta16 said:

Water pump(?), alternator I think are out as the engine's not running so leaves(?) blower fan or radiator cooling fan or something else if it is that type of noise.

 

The noise is close to the grilles, water pump-altenator-radiator fan are away.

It's like the blower fan to have some voltage (not proper) and try to spin a bit.

 

@robchap here is about the dashboard removal.

 

 

Here from mine.

 

[nta16]

Checking the tape deck with a diy stethoscope is the quickest and easiest check and potentially lead to the easiest thing to stop the noise, as it's UK I might even recognise an old player and even still have the U-bar keys in a tool box.

 

Edited 27 February by nta16

[D.FYLAKTOS]

18 minutes ago, nta16 said:

Central locking just adds weight to the car and more complexity and things to go wrong and you can't just wind the windows up and down without remembering to take the keys

 

The driver's lock is the first victim of an amateur burglar, mine is destroyed thus and i wish i was remote central locking without the alarm.

Now every time i want to lock my car for a while i have to go to the passenger's side or open the rear door push the drivers pin lock and close the door so all the locks are engaged.