it's maximum input/output resolution is PAL at 720x576, so not quite so much more than the 640x480 offered by the DigiMatrix. I can imagine this looking crystal clear on a TV screen, but does it do the same - full-screen, that is - on a 1280x1024 19" TFT screen? If so, why doesn't the image break up?

OK, I'll admit I haven't had the luxury of playing about with large TFT monitors much...however, doing a spot of maths shows that 720x576 is proportional to 1280x1024, so it wouldn't need to crop or distort, merely "zoom". 640x480 is a different matter.

However, a pixel being distinct rather than continuous, quite how it would cope with a 1.7x zoom leaves me stumped...

Rob.

if I understand correctly, it's maximum input/output resolution is PAL at 720x576, so not quite so much more than the 640x480 offered by the DigiMatrix. I can imagine this looking crystal clear on a TV screen, but does it do the same - full-screen, that is - on a 1280x1024 19" TFT screen? If so, why doesn't the image break up?

The maximum resolution is full frame PAL. You'd be making up picture if you made it any more pixels. It's the same resolution as DVD video and I can play that full screen on my 1600x1200 16" TFT (on laptop) thanks to the wonders of hardware video overlay and scaling - that's a standard feature on most (if not all) graphics cards these days.

Play a DVD on your machine at high resolution and see how it looks.

About Interlaced video/Deinterlacing... TV pictures are transmitted like this:

------- _______ -------

------- _______ -------

------- _______ -------

First the odd lines are sent, then the even ones, 50 times a second. If you draw the full frame at the same time then half the lines will be drawn too early or half too late... and that really shows up on sideways motion (the ticker on Sky Sports News is an excellent test).

This is further compounded by the fact that the input framerate isn't the same as the output one.. often your monitor runs at 60Hz or above. 100Hz should generate the best output for PAL. TFTs often run at 60Hz which isn't easy to match up to 50Hz.

Thanks to you both, but it isn't making it any easier for me...

Convinced about the DVD playback on a high-res screen now, but quite confused about the de-interlacing. Shouldn't the PVR card just take care of that? The thing's meant to be used in a PC environment anyway so would monitor output not be more common than TV output?

Anyway, did a calculation on a Shuttle-based system with the PVR350 card and it's staggeringly more expensive than a DigiMatrix, which has integrated video, PVR and a DVD rewriter for just a few quid above the base Shuttle price...

So the choice is between:

- 640x480 in a smaller box with HiFi looks at a better price

- full PAL quality in a slightly bigger box at quite some extra cost

Now please convince me I should take the latter...

Anyway' date=' did a calculation on a Shuttle-based system with the PVR350 card and it's staggeringly more expensive than a DigiMatrix, which has integrated video, PVR and a DVD rewriter for just a few quid above the base Shuttle price...

[/quote']

Don't go for Shuttle, go for EPIA - you don't need a particularly powerful processor anyway, and you'll be paying extra for Intel in the Shuttle.

Mini-ITX have a good range of stuff, and a few demonstrations of where this technology can be installed...

And being a Briskodian, you could save a bit on their prices...

Rob.

Found out that it's even worse with the Shuttle, as the DigiMatrix also includes cordless mouse/keyboard and XP Home. In all, a Shuttle-based solution would be double the cost - which would neatly pay for a 19" TFT!

Anyway, the Mini-ITX site looks superb - quite like the Black Venus box, if only for its name...

So I would be looking at a M10000 & Black Venus bundle, with 512 MB RAM, a 200 GB disk, a DVD Rewriter, a memory-card reader, cordless mouse/kb and XP Home. Wireless would be USB, with a PVR350 in the PCI slot. How much would that set me back?

So I would be looking at a M10000 & Black Venus bundle, with 512 MB RAM, a 200 GB disk, a DVD Rewriter, a memory-card reader, cordless mouse/kb and XP Home. Wireless would be USB, with a PVR350 in the PCI slot. How much would that set me back?

I'd say it would cost no more than

Thanks - again - for bothering, Rob...

Hmm, 800 quid compares to the 1200 euro I'd have to shell out for the full Shuttle-based system.

Anyway, the DigiMatrix's hitherto amazing value's just plummeted - I've been told the DVD rewriter isn't included, and the box only allows for a (very expensive!) slim-type ODD.

Now it's almost up with the EPIA and Shuttle price-wise, but with less expansion options... :(

Hmm' date=' 800 quid compares to the 1200 euro I'd have to shell out for the full Shuttle-based system.

[/quote']

Though if you went for a 160Gb disc instead of a 200Gb, the price would be down to

There's more room for expansion in the Shuttle - especially RAM and the possibility of a CPU swap. But then I doubt whether I will ever see the need for any expansion, so I can definitely see the EPIA's value.

That is, if that comes off...

(I'm sure the VAT applies to any consumer, be they foreign or not.)

There's more room for expansion in the Shuttle - especially RAM and the possibility of a CPU swap. But then I doubt whether I will ever see the need for any expansion' date=' so I can definitely see the EPIA's value.

[/quote']

But just how much RAM do you need, eh? EPIAs which take Pentium 4s and Celerons are available, but heat and cost becomes issues (ie. it would cost more and not be as quiet!).

(I'm sure the VAT applies to any consumer, be they foreign or not.)

Yeah, I'd imagine it would be sold to you without VAT then Customs would charge you the VAT when it arrived in the country. Believe it's 19% in the Netherlands, isn't it? :(

Quite depressing that the government makes more per sale than I do, and that I then pay tax on the remaining income, and everything I buy with it...

Consulted a currency trader though, 1200 Euros is actually about

The lack of dBs of the M10000 board is impressive, I agree.

But have you added the Hauppauge card to your estimate? If I add all things up including shipping and VAT I get to almost 1300 euros for the EPIA...

The lack of dBs of the M10000 board is impressive' date=' I agree.

But have you added the Hauppauge card to your estimate? If I add all things up including shipping and VAT I get to almost 1300 euros for the EPIA...[/quote']

Yeah, the first price is for the board, Black Venus case, 512Mb RAM, 200Gb disk, DVD-RW, USB 6-in-1 memory card reader, RF wireless mouse and keyboard, XP Home, wireless USB dongle and a PVR350. And UK VAT @ 17.5%.

No idea on shipping I'm afraid though... :(

On the Mini-ITX site they have the Tranquil Media - not quite such a high spec as this, but worth a look, and it is even quieter as it's totally passively cooled. And the chap who distributes them is a Briskodian...

Rob.

Tough Dutch customer has had a look - interesting package, but Mrs D4x4 hates the casing... "That looks like a toolbox!" Well, quite...

If your arithmetic is right, Rob, and mine isn't (I've used the euro calculator on the site!), I'm still interested in the Black Venus option - I could live with USB wireless hidden away at the back - but what's this about XP Home OEM only for UK customers? Dutch XP Home retail prices are monstrous... (Hmm, could use a W2K Pro Upgrade pack from work instead.)

Will inform with customs here on import duties - could of course merely import the case and board and buy the rest off-the-shelf here in NL. I've seen that things like RAM and HDDs are mostly cheaper here.

Right, end-of-year time-out now...

:cheers:

Tough Dutch customer has had a look - interesting package' date=' but Mrs D4x4 hates the casing... "That looks like a toolbox!" Well, quite...

[/quote']

Well, the slim cases which look like "hifi" are available, but then you are probably

looking at slimline optical drives and laptop hard disks as well.

My arithmetic was based on the sort of prices I sell at, but I have the luxury of operating at very low overheads...

UK XP Home retail is pretty expensive too...well, OEM's still annoyingly expensive, especially on second hand systems as it increases the price by about 50%! :(

If you're going down the barebones EPIA route, have a word with Mr ffelan (he should be back at work on the 5th), and he'll either be able to point you in the direction of a NL distributor or send you the stuff himself. I'd agree there seems little point in importing components which are available in NL!

Rob.

Thanks, Rob, will take it up with Paul next week. A Dutch distributor would be simplest, of course.

I now know about the slimline ODDs - that's what makes the DigiMatrix much more expensive than I thought!

Will probably choose between an EPIA or cheap AMD Duron set-up. If only I could personally hear their noise levels before deciding...

On the Mini-ITX site they have the Tranquil Media - not quite such a high spec as this' date=' but worth a look, and it is even quieter as it's totally passively cooled. And the chap who distributes them is a Briskodian...

[/quote']

Had another look at this, as I found that they have a black case as well, which is not so bad.

There's just one thing about it: what's this with Digital TV/Radio? Does the integrated PVR card only do digital or will it do cable too?

There's just one thing about it: what's this with Digital TV/Radio? Does the integrated PVR card only do digital or will it do cable too?

Not sure...they don't seem to give much detail about the internals... :(

With regard to noise...Durons use more power and require more cooling, so I'd imagine they'd always be noisier due to the cooling requirements. From my experience of using the 1GHz EPIA board in a Chyang Funcube (which has a couple of fans in it too), it's not *silent*, you'd get a background whisper in a quiet room but if you have TV/Hi-Fi on then you don't notice it...

Rob.

Had another look at this' date=' as I found that they have a black case as well, which is not so bad.

There's just one thing about it: what's this with Digital TV/Radio? Does the integrated PVR card only do digital or will it do cable too?[/quote']The Nebula Freeview PCI Card (http://www.nebula-electronics.com/information/info.asp?Code=0001) grabs the freeview signal via aerial connections, and has another input too, so the cable could go into that....

I was thinking of building a shuttle-based PVR at one point, and the Nebula would have been the card for me. Ended up with a recordable DVD/HDD box instead

With regard to noise...Durons use more power and require more cooling' date=' so I'd imagine they'd always be noisier due to the cooling requirements. From my experience of using the 1GHz EPIA board in a Chyang Funcube (which has a couple of fans in it too), it's not *silent*, you'd get a background whisper in a quiet room but if you have TV/Hi-Fi on then you don't notice it...

[/quote']

Noise is becoming quite an issue here at home, as Mrs D4x4 is very reluctant to agree on a machine which emits a continuing background noise. The Shuttle/Duton option will be a no-go area, I'm afraid. We could turn it off, of course, when it's not needed, but having to have a CD/DVD player, radio, and VCR that has to go through a Windows boot sequence before it can be used is hardly user-friendly.

Have found several Dutch EPIA resellers now, with one located reasonably close and with a physical presence too, so not just online. Will go and call them tomorrow to ask whether they have an EPIA-based demo system. I (or better: we) really need to hear it before deciding on it. If it is tolerable it holds so many advantages over a "traditional" home-theatre option...

So Steve, how quiet is the HDD/DVD box anyway? Do you by chance have this one?

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/dvd-recorder/dmre100hebs/index.htm

I'll just repeat myself...

With regards of having a PC in the lounge, unless you invest heavily in a silent case it is going to be loud. No matter what anyone tells you, a PC in the living room makes a lot of noise, unless you are able to put it in a cupboard, or put a lot of distance between yourself and the PC.

Q.

Well, quite...

From now on, it's either EPIA (only when proven quiet enough) or wait until the above Panasonic cost half of what it costs now.

A shame really, because even SWMBO acknowledges all the advantages of having a downstairs network-connected PC. She's fed up with all the CDs and tapes cluttering up the cupboards, with never having a free videotape at hand when you urgently need it ("No, you can't use that one! There's a documentary on it that I still need to see - and yes, it's right in the middle of the tape..."), with having to watch downloaded movies from behind a desk, and with having to go upstairs to burn a CDR of her favourite oldies which run the risk of not being able to be played on the downstairs stereo because its CD player is rather choosy in what CDRs it will or won't have.

If only PCs could be really, really quiet... :(

If only PCs could be really, really quiet... :(

Well, there's no good reason why they couldn't. The EPIA stuff is a good base to start with as it doesn't generate a whole lot of heat - I run a C3 800MHz in my normal size home PC, and with passive cooling it runs at about 40 Celsius peak. The power supply in that is about 8 years old though, so a bit creaky - if I replaced that with a new silent one (use a larger fan spinning slower so the generated frequency isn't audible) it would be totally silent.

It is possible to get fanless power supplied - one typically used with EPIAs is the Morex 55W one. However, if you're using a M10000 board, a PVR, wireless LAN, and an optical drive and HDD I think this power supply would struggle.

Still, see what your local retailers come up with...

Rob.

Thanks Rob...

I thought of enhancing your reputation by unreasonable amounts for all the help you gave me over this by clicking on all your posts in this thread, but apparently the system considers this practice unreasonable too, as it says, and I quote, "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to robmawer again."

Noise is becoming quite an issue here at home, as Mrs D4x4 is very reluctant to agree on a machine which emits a continuing background noise. The Shuttle/Duton option will be a no-go area, I'm afraid.

The latest edition of one of the PC magazines had a feature about something along these lines. They went for a non-Intel chipset that was embedded onto the board, along with a silent power supply and notebook-size CD/DVD drive (lower power consumption). It also had a lowish power hard drive in. On board network and video, as well as USB and memory card readers. They used a Cubic (?) case - similar to shuttle but very cool looking. By all accounts it was very quiet, as it didn't have a fan, just a form of active cooling.....

Have a look at the www.digitalspy.co.uk forums - lots of discussion about PVRs and the like.....

So Steve' date=' how quiet is the HDD/DVD box anyway? Do you by chance have this one?

[url']http://www.panasonic.co.uk/dvd-recorder/dmre100hebs/index.htm[/url]

It's *very* quiet - there's a temperature-controlled fan in there, but you can hardly hear it if at all. Can sometimes hear it a bit more when time-slipping, but it is incredibly quiet most of the time - and as the TV/CD/DVD is usually in use, that masks any noise anyway

Thought about the panasonic HS2, but we ended up getting the Toshiba RD-XS30, as it seemed to get better "reviews" by its owners. Very impressive though - can record 26hrs at "SP" (can't tell difference between a recording and the live TV) or 78 at LP (can just tell the difference) - along with the usual timeslip stuff, etc. Glorified VCR really, but so much easier to use. Plus, you can edit out the adverts, etc, and burn it to DVD-R, complete with flash menus, etc

They used a Cubic (?) case - similar to shuttle but very cool looking. By all accounts it was very quiet' date=' as it didn't have a fan, just a form of active cooling.....

[/quote']

Wouldn't happen to be the Cubit, manufactured by Hoojum? Very nice looking, but kind of pricey for cases... :Yikes:

And the embedded processor boards would indeed be one of the EPIA Mini-ITX boards I've been going on about since the start...

Rob.