Nick' date=' no, it isn't very common yet. Home entertainment manufacturers still haven't picked up on the idea, and the PC world is only slowly coming out with pre-packaged, user-friendly machines. I'd say it's still pretty much in its infancy but I expect 2004 to be the breakthrough year for the HTPC. So there's a very obvious reason why this was the first place you saw anyone talk seriously about it - unless you are already part of the tweaking scene...

My ideas are gathering around a quiet PC box with Hi-fi set looks, with power-off facilities for (at least) CD and radio playback (but preferably DVD too), connected to the wireless home network, an LCD TV and some speakers. It would have a simple remote-control operated environment (like myHTPC) running on top of Windows, switchable to normal Windows operation using a cordless keyboard and mouse. A PCI PVR card would replace the analogue VCR and TV/radio tuner, a DVD rewriter would replace the CD player and DVD player and would be able to burn the best recorded programmes on DVD-R in order to keep the harddisk empty enough.

All of the above components are already available - as discussed extensively in this thread - but you still need a bit of a DIY attitude to make it all work together seamlessly.

How's that for a summary? [/quote']

I started reading that second paragraph about 3 times and gave up each time. What does "power-off facilities" mean? How do you control the "simple" environment? Is 54Mbps wireless enough for streaming video media? My 11Mbps is painfully slow and unreliable. I can't imagine 54Mbps being enough. And I imagine LCD TVs cost a FORTUNE!!!

And so on ...

I started reading that second paragraph about 3 times and gave up each time. What does "power-off facilities" mean? How do you control the "simple" environment? Is 54Mbps wireless enough for streaming video media? My 11Mbps is painfully slow and unreliable. I can't imagine 54Mbps being enough. And I imagine LCD TVs cost a FORTUNE!

Power-off facilities. I'd take a guess at it meaning that things like CD/Radio/DVD don't need the PC to boot up entirely before you can watch a movie, or listen to an album. Some PC's do this... I know of one by a company called "Systemax" (I think that was the name).

"Control a simple environment" - Well if you could run a simple piece of software to access the main aspects of a PC, EG simple one-click things for DVD Software, TV Software, etc... then you could use a programmable remote, rather than having to play about with a mouse/keyboard. Search google.com for software called "MyHTPC" - thats an example of such software.

54Mbps is more than enough to steam music. If you think about it, you can listen to (poorer) quality streaming online on dial-up connections, and you can get near-to CD quality with some broadband packages. Whether or not it'll steam video well; I dunno. Anybody tried one of the new Linksys Wireless-B Media Adapters?

I got an LCD before Christmas and it was just to say into quadruple-figures. Baring in mind I'll probably have it for 5+ years, I don't really mind that kind of money. After all. I watch it every night

The new wireless "Squeezebox" one' date=' or the original SliMP3 Player?

I can't decide which one I like... :scratchch[/quote']

An original. They are discontinueing the slimp3 btw, and just continue with the Squeezebox (wireless and wired versions).

I started reading that second paragraph about 3 times and gave up each time. What does "power-off facilities" mean? How do you control the "simple" environment? Is 54Mbps wireless enough for streaming video media? My 11Mbps is painfully slow and unreliable. I can't imagine 54Mbps being enough. And I imagine LCD TVs cost a FORTUNE!!!

Jon answered it quite nicely. Indeed, power-off means using the system without having to boot Windows, i.e. having the hi-fi functionality at hand without the box acting like a computer. myHTPC, as also mentioned by me, is a good example of a simple, remote-control guided environment (see myhtpc.net). 54 Mpbs is more than enough for streaming video, but I still think it isn't reliable enough for watching a movie. That's why I still want a downstairs PC with its own harddisk, on which the movies are recorded and from which they are played - which is different from the streaming box Howard is looking for. In my case, the wireless connection would simply be for moving files around, in which case 11 Mbps is just fine.

Yes, the big 30" LCD screens are still loudly expensive, but we are only using a 17" TV in our living room at the moment, so going up to a 19" TFT wouldn't be much of a problem. The only comfort of having a 30" screen is that couch surfing on the Net becomes an actual reality. With a 19" screen you'd still need to get up close to read what's on the screen. Fortunately, that's not really a problem in our home.

And I imagine LCD TVs cost a FORTUNE!!!

About the same price as plasma...17" is around the

Well they had to be expensive - TFT monitors are still pretty pricey. Strange there is nothing in between 17" and 30". 17 would be too small in any except a tiny room, and 30" is huge. My current TV is 22" - perhaps a teeny bit small, but manageable in the space.

Is LCD the only option with these systems?

Nick - just curious - not about to spend 3k on home entertainment just yet :p

Well they had to be expensive - TFT monitors are still pretty pricey. Strange there is nothing in between 17" and 30". 17 would be too small in any except a tiny room' date=' and 30" is huge. My current TV is 22" - perhaps a teeny bit small, but manageable in the space.

Is LCD the only option with these systems?

[/quote']

Sure there's sizes between 17" and 30" - though for a 22" you're looking at the low end of

Sure there's sizes between 17" and 30" - though for a 22" you're looking at the low end of

So - S-Video then - what is it? Have PCs (laptops) with it on' date=' but no idea what it's for. Does it need some special decoder?

[/quote']

Er...bit like SCART.

If your TV has an S-video in, then it's easy, just a single cable. If, like me, you just have a couple of SCART sockets, then you need to do some jiggery pokery with S-video to SCART cables...

And yes, the PCs can be smaller than a pile of grey boxes. For example, a case EPIA with DVD player, surround sound, PVR card, TV out, 160Gb disk and 1Mb of RAM could be as small as the little silver cube here:

That's a 17" monitor, but you wouldn't need that, and you could swap the keyboard/mouse for wireless stuff. And even get a remote control for it if you were so inclined. And hook it up to broadband too, but I won't mention that...

Rob.

Yes, please mention that

One of my pile of grey boxes is, of course, my ntl set-top box. Can that be dispensed with, or are you talking about chaining off the set-top box, or the cable modem (which in my case is elsewhere in the house)?

PS I apologise to the more erudite for basically restarting this thread from scratch, but I find Rob's answers to my rather simple questions much more enlightening than the previous traffic, to the point that I'm actually getting very interested now. I may even go back and re-read some of the earlier posts in a new light.

One of my pile of grey boxes is' date=' of course, my ntl set-top box. Can that be dispensed with, or are you talking about chaining off the set-top box, or the cable modem (which in my case is elsewhere in the house)?

[/quote']

Hmm...unfortunately, I get the feeling you'll be stuck with this. There might be a way round it if you have a smart card reader and that, but I imagine it would require some fiddling - and I think NTL would "frown" on you doing this...

Freeview wouldn't be a problem though, I think the PVRs can cope with that.

My set-top box is also my cable modem, so I have a router next to it too, with one cable going to my ****-PC, and the other to my other PC upstairs. Haven't really dabbled with PVR cards though, as it's not like stuff isn't repeated on NTL anyway...

Rob.

The one thing that would never be allowed to happen would be websurfing on the living room TV. SWMBO would be hard enough to persuade that the living room needed a PC in it (although it has to take up less room than the current pile of grey boxes) without the likelihood that the TV is suddenly going to become a window onto the internet ...

Ah, that's easy then. In that case using the regular TV won't be a problem.

Seeing that Rob got you interested, here are your options... (I agree that Rob is very good at enlightening the unenlightened - of which I felt part a mere month ago - so I hope I haven't been spoiled by my newly-acquired knowledge.)

So what do you need?

A. Box that will do digital video recordings (from cable, Digital TV or DV camera input) on a harddisk and will allow you to burn the best recordings on DVD-R

Get an off-the-shelf Panasonic, Toshiba or Philips HD/DVD Recorder, connect it to your existing Home Entertainment or hi-fi system, and you're off.

B. Box that will do A but is also LAN-connected, to allow you to copy media files from and to other PCs in the network and be connected to the Internet as well

Three options:

1. The small, silent one: the EPIA route as described by Rob. You have an out-of-the-box option like the Tranquil Media PC, which only does Digital TV/radio, or build one yourself using Mr ffelan as a supplier...

2. The one that is scalable: the (Shuttle/Soltek/MSI/etc.) barebone route as described above. A small-sized half-empty PC box that can take normal AMD or Intel chips, with built-in video and sound. Alternatively, there are the semi out-of-the box systems with power-off functionality, like the Asus DigiMatrix or MSI Mega PC, which are also discussed here.

3. The one that is scalable and can be made ultra-silent: the ATX-size HTPC route as also described above. A desktop-sized system that will take AMD or Intel chips and the usual-sized PC expansion cards, and can be made silent by using fanless coolers/videocards/PSUs that won't fit into 1/2.

So what should be in either of these boxes?

Mainboard:

1. takes a VIA EPIA board, with integrated processor, video, sound, LAN and USB/Firewire.

2. has an integrated board, with integrated video, sound, LAN and USB/Firewire.

3. needs an ATX board of choice, with fanless PSU and cooler

Processor:

1. on-board.

2. cheap AMD or Intel option.

3. cheap AMD or Intel option.

RAM:

512 MB should cover it for all. 1 has one memory bank, 2/3 have two.

HD:

1-3. in the region of 120-160 GB should provide ample storage.

Video:

1. on-board (although some question its quality)

2. on-board (although some question its quality), there is an AGP slot for a dedicated card

3. AGP card: a Radeon 9200 or GeForce4 MX will do.

Sound:

1. on-board (although some question its quality)

2. on-board (although some question its quality)

3. a simple SB Audigy will do

Either connect to the AUX input of your existing home entertainment or hi-fi set through RCA connectors, or if you also want to get rid of those, directly plug in some (very) decent PC speakers. A third option is to get a small-sized amp and only use your existing hi-fi speakers.

DVD Rewriter:

1-3. you need to add one in all boxes

PVR/tuner card:

1. has one PCI slot, but make sure the case can fit a full-height PCI card

2. has one PCI slot, which will fit a full-height PCI card

3. has 6 or 7 PCI slots, so you can go overboard...

The Hauppauge cards seems the best out there - the PVR250 does TV only, the PVR350 has an FM radio tuner as well. So use the 350 if you want to get rid off the full hi-fi set as well.

You can also use its S-video or SCART input to connect your analogue VCR in order to digitize your old VHS tapes and then get rid of those.

Additional:

- software such as myHTPC and a programmable remote control, for on-screen navigation and PVR programming

- a wireless USB dongle

- a cordless keyboard/mouse for PC use

- either use your TV as your monitor, or get an LCD

- if it's a small-sized screen, make sure you can sit right in front of it for PC use

Mattijs - what looks like a masterly summing-up there, now I have to go back and read all the relevant posts.

Rob - great kudos to you mate for your nice clear answers. If the reputation tool was still alive you'd be getting several points - even if I had to log in as Real Skoda to do it :p

A grand summing up indeed! Though I should point out for option 1 that you can also get EPIAs which will take a Pentium 4/Celeron processor, and also that there are companies who will build one for you if you don't want to DIY it...

Rob.

On the contrary, I'd prefer to DIY it.

On the contrary, I'd prefer[/i'] to DIY it.

Well, yes, just making sure it goes on the record that there is a company which will build them for people who don't want to...

Rob.

About the same price as plasma...17" is around the

obvious pixelation if you're standing right in front of the screen but that disappears when you are sitting a reasonable distance away.

Most large TVs do suffer from this when close up, I guess you're not supposed to sit that close anyway...

I only have two problems with projectors:

1. Cost of bulbs for the time they last.

2. Fan noise (though I expect there's quiet ones out there?)

Rob.

I only have two problems with projectors:

1. Cost of bulbs for the time they last.

2. Fan noise (though I expect there's quiet ones out there?)

1: I've done 445Hrs in a year (I consider myself pretty high use) and the bulb is rated to 2000 hours. A quick search shows 269.99. Chances are I'll replace the projector before the bulb though!

2: The fan is audible on startup and shutdown (protecting the lamp I guess) but it is quiet enough during actual use.

You will need a hifi AV receiver if you've got a projector though because they don't have speakers (well one little tinny one doesn't count)

I cannot even begin to imagine where I would put a 2m wide screen in my house. There isn't that much free space anywhere. Let alone a projector. Faye is yours on a piece of furniture, or suspended from the ceiling? Either way you definitely take your viewing VERY seriously.

I cannot even begin to imagine where I would put a 2m wide screen in my house. There isn't that much free space anywhere. Let alone a projector. Faye is yours on a piece of furniture, or suspended from the ceiling? Either way you definitely take your viewing VERY seriously.

Nick,

I stare at this entire thread (all seven pages) with the same sense of incredulity as you do.

I cannot even begin to imagine where I would put a 2m wide screen in my house. There isn't that much free space anywhere. Let alone a projector. Faye is yours on a piece of furniture, or suspended from the ceiling? Either way you definitely take your viewing VERY seriously.

It's an electrically operated screen, suspended from the ceiling. It is mounted just in front of the patio doors and is slightly wider. The projector is on a little coffeetable 3-3.5m away from the screen and the sofa is behind it.

I do take my movies seriously, I've also got a Pioneer THX Ultra AV receiver which makes the movies sound as good as they look

It's the main reason I'm not (as yet) happy with any computer/AV convergence box. The things that work well look bad, and the things that look good are buggy.

Working on a WinTV Nova-t (digital terrestrial) and PVR350 (for capturing sky and outputting to TV) solution. Using MythTV. The PVR350 TV output is not yet stable. Quality is fantastic, but it's buggy and unreliable. This is the fault of the current Linux drivers for the PVR350 card. The drivers for the Nova-t in comparison seem stable.

I've tried several Windows based programs too, Windows XP MCE didn't support the hardware. SageTV was about as buggy as MythTV and cost money too! GBPVR looks promising but is still buggy.

Maybe we should wait a year or two more?

Faye

1: I've done 445Hrs in a year (I consider myself pretty high use) and the bulb is rated to 2000 hours. A quick search shows 269.99. Chances are I'll replace the projector before the bulb though!

Ah, so I take it you're just using the projector for watching films, with a normal TV for watching, er, TV?

You will need a hifi AV receiver if you've got a projector though because they don't have speakers (well one little tinny one doesn't count)

I'm currently running a Naim Audio stereo amp and a pair of Monitor Audio speakers as the missus frowns heavily upon the concept of rear speakers. Or at least, the wires for them.

My problem now is that the speakers cause magnetic interference with the TV...but seeing as how I don't use the speakers for normal TV, setting up something dedicated for DVD...with a projector...hmmmmmm... :scratchch

Rob.

The major setback for getting a proper HIFI 5.1 setup in the front room is my mother... she doesnt like having 5 remote controls in the front room, and she cant stand having sound coming from any other direction than the telly

Ive got a 6.1 setup in my bedroom, (inspire 6700) nothing fancy but it does the job for watching films/playing games on the computer

she doesnt like having 5 remote controls in the front room

One word: Pronto ... even gets SWMBO's stamp of approval