Yet another sad story about broken power steering!

[gewstarr]

Hi guys!

 

Last day I was doing a U-turn in a small road intersection when it suddenly beeped and the steering rod light came on. In the same instant the steering wheel was terrible hard to turn. In short, I had lost all assistance. Now, I've never had servo / power steering issues before, so this is a first on my behalf. Soon Google'd my way and found tons of old threads here on Briskoda, where PAS failing seem to be quite common for Mk1 Fabia's.

 

Now, tonight I hooked up my netbook to the car for diagnostics. I had two fault codes. Cleared them, and after a car reboot only the 566 code was present. A dozen of reboots later, still only the 00566 fault code to be renewed. The power steering was still gone, and steering wheel light on, though.

 

 

Funny thing, it seems like 9 out of 10 people with these issues end up with replacing a worn out wheel turning sensor, where the early ones where made of plastic and newer ones are better made, right? I was preparing for this, but when lookin' into the "Measuring Blocks" function in VCDS-Lite, I actually get a live reading from the sensor. When turning the wheel right, it gives me a negative degree (°) value, and turning the wheel left gives a positive degree value. Does this mean my sensor is still okay?

 

 

Anyways, as you can see, the other block reader gives me "OFF" in one box, and no current at all. I'm [wildly] guessing that this is data for the actual pump, and that OFF indicates that it's really not even turned on. Am I right here? I've checked all fuses, and they seem to be alright.

 

What could be my issue? What would be your next move? I want to get this fixed a.s.a.p. because it's really not fun to drive like this. It's okey on bigger roads but when driving in the city all intersection turns are nightmare. I'm really glad I wasn't driving a car back in the [say] 1970's when most cars were like this. I mean it's like everytime you reach your destination and leave your car it feels like you've done a complete workout!

 

Now, on a more serious note, I would be happy with any input on this matter. As you can see by the screenshot it seems my controller is a "6Q0 423 156 R" which seems to indicate that I'm unfortunate to have one of these discontinued pumps "KOYO" that is pretty damn expensive. Would be really nice if I didn't need to replace the pump.

 

I'm thinking about removing wheel and arch liner tomorrow, and try to see if I can actually see the pump from there (without removing the windshield washer bottle) to see if there is some visible damage, loose ground points, or something like that.

 

Anyways, like I said, ANY piece of input/advice on this would be MUCH appreciated. Until then, my arm muscles will keep getting stronger!

[TMB]

Check the fuse links on top of the battery. They can develop hairline cracks.

 

These...

[gewstarr]

Big thanks for really quick response TMB! I havn't really thought about those at all. I'll check it first thing after work tomorrow.

[TMB]

Big thanks for really quick response TMB! I havn't really thought about those at all. I'll check it first thing after work tomorrow.

 

No probs. Definitely worth checking before looking any deeper

[hutchysrs50]

Would be interesting if it is the fuse since the pump gives it's power to the angle sensor, not sure if it would work off can-bus when using vag-com or not!

[gewstarr]

Oh, if the pump powers the angle sensor then I'm 99% sure that this is not a fuse problem, or the sensor would not produce live data.

Well, I'll check fuses when I get home anyways, just to be sure we can rule that one out.

Edited 25 August, 2014 by gewstarr

[hutchysrs50]

Yeah, I'm not sure it does, I just know the live feed goes to the pump and the angle sensor plugs into the pump, but another plug for can-bus wires goes Into it, iirc....

Left plug has about 3 wires for the angle sensor

Middle plug is can-bus and has about 6 wires and right plug is just two wires live and earth.

Been a while since I've changed a pump now though.

[sepulchrave]

I'm not certain but logically there could be two power feeds to the power steering system, a high current feed for running the pump with the fuse on the battery box and a separate low current feed for the electronics with a small 5A fuse located somewhere else or slaved to the CAN bus which is capable of powering the electronics. Clearly the low current feed is intact if it is separate.

[gewstarr]

Guys, I haven't had time to jack the car and do that arch lining disassembly just yet. I just thought I'd ask before, will I even be able to see the servo pump from there? I would like to check the mentioned three connectors you (big thanks for that info @hutchysrs50), but _if_ it's possible I would really like to be able to work around the step of removing the bumper to reach washer fluid and servo pump(s), which I understand is located almost at the same place. Looking from the bonnet, all you can see is the green refill plug of the power steering pump, everything around is covered with chassis metal.

[hutchysrs50]

If you pull the fog light grill out in the passenger side you should see some the pump and connections, they face the front of the car.

The angle sensor can be removed / inspected from the drivers side wheel arch with full lock to the left, iirc it's held in with two Allen key bolts.

[gewstarr]

Not much news. I located the "false lid" yesterday and all fuses seems alright.

I also removed a square plastic brick on the fog light grill, using only hand force. I believe it'a cover plates to where fog lights are supposed to go on cars equipped with such, whilst mine is not. Anyways, I also tried pulling the entire surrounding grill (plastic) out the same way (hand force) but that didn't go so well. I could see some of the pump, yeah, but mostly the washer fluid reservoir. Would there be any use in getting the car lifted in a DIY hall? Something of interest I could inspect from down under?

[gewstarr]

Progress in this matter is slow. Yesterday I took out all fuses and checked them with multi-meter, just to be sure we were not dealing with one of those almost invisible cuts. They were all fine though.

Early today me and my wife jacked the car and removed wheel arch lining. Pump was a bit rusty but looked alright, although I couldn't see It's connections in front of the car.

Tonight I've been charging my battery up to full. Still dead power steering. I'm starting to get used to it though, steering wheel don't feel as heavy as the first days.

Also, I sent an email to our local Skoda garage / service center about cost for pump replacement. They replied that it would be 12 028 SEK, meaning roughly 1 038 GBP. I get the creeps. Right now it feels like I'd rather sell the car cheap.

Edited 5 September, 2014 by gewstarr

[devonutopia]

You can get second hand pumps.  I am selling my car's old pump for £30 in working condition for example.

 

The fault codes you had are different to the ones I normally see (which specifically mention the angle sensor)

 

Have you checked the reservoir is topped up with fluid?

[gewstarr]

Big thanks for your reply @devonutopia, means a lot.

 

To be honest, yesterday night I was in a bad mood, thinking that I'd rather more or less send the car to Skoda heaven. But today, I cleared my mind, thinking that this is probably not way to go. I must just simply forget about that ugly price that Skoda service center gave me, and make this a real crash course. I simply decided that I will(!) make a run for this, myself. I know there are plenty of Skoda folks out there that has suffered similar PAS issues, and it feels like a giving to the community to try and do it right, and document the DIY action/progress along it's journey.

 

Funny (no, sad, really) thing is, I'm more and more convinced that it's the actual pump that has died in my case. Why? Well, listen to this. A couple of months ago I got this awful noise coming from the car when doing full turns in reverse, e.g. while getting out from a parking space. The horrible sound only occurred during full turns, and only in reverse. Anyways, I had just changed both brake discs, pads, drums, and shoes, so I at first thought that I had done some newbie mistake in the mounting of some of those, thus causing this ill noise. I even put up a thread here, where I asked you fellows about it, and even though I was warned[!] that it could be the servo / steering assistance, I disregarded this, because I was so sure that the issue was because of my brake changing operation.

 

Now, the mad noise that you can hear from the video in the link here above is all gone. It's all silent now, except that steering is a real b*tch. So, I figure that I had a true warning sign right in front of my face, but I didn't take note. A really dumb mistake, yeah. During my recent inspection I have indeed checked the fluid level (thank you for asking, @devonutopia), and it was somewhat below minimum. I bought standard CHF oil from a store that [more or less] corresponds to Halfords in the UK, i.e. cheap generic stuff with no lullabies. I topped up the level (ended up a little over max on the dipstick) and prayed silently for the pump having some sort of "self protection system" that makes it go "OFF" (see my VCDS-Lite screenshot in original post) when fluid level is below a certain point, to protect the pump from snapping. I then held my fingers crossed and started my engine. Still the steering light on the dashboard, still no bloody steering assist. Aaaaawergh!!

 

So, anyways, right now I'm seriously decided to go and get a [used] replacement pump. I must say your price tag is the bomb (@devonutopia), I haven't seen any KOYO pumps around (eBay, local scrap yards, etc) with even near that low price. I would have bought it from you in a split second, but — unfortunately — I'm located in Sweden, thus driving a LHD model, and [rumor has it that..] LHD/RHD cars has different designs of their PAS pumps. The pump is sitting on the driver (left) side of the car here, anyways. Well, the absolute cheapest [used] pump that I've found so far is through a Swedish car scrapyard search engine. In this particular deal, they want as little as [what equals to] ~255 GBP for the pump. I'm thinking of buying it, since I honestly don't think I'll find anything cheaper, anytime soon.

 

So, now guys, do you have any advice to give when it comes to the actual operation of changing the pump? The bumper needs to come of, right? I have the BBY (16v/75hp) engine where the battery is placed on top of some metal plate that covers most of the PAS fluid reservoir except for the filler cap. Does this mean I need to take out the battery and the metal plate under it as well? Anyone with real life experience? Any piece of advice would be highly appreciated here.

 

Oh, I found this Norwegian dude (another Scandinavian hanging around Briskoda, heh) who posted this very interesting thread here a couple of years ago. His business seems more or less similar to mine, so I've read his story more than one time, to be honest.

 

Oh, one last question. If i remove the bumper and disconnect the PAS pump and it's hoses, will I still be able to drive the car (without PAS), or would this be bad, i.e. in a worse way than it is right now, driving without power assist?

 

I know I've put tons of questions here, but let me tell you again, just any piece of advice would be much appreciated. I will [of course] fill in you in when I start dissembling the front bumper, and furthermore the PAS pump. Oh, is there any way to test the old pump? Ohm-read on some of it's pins? Does anyone know?

 

Once more, I want to say big thanks for all your [helping] input, this far.

[sepulchrave]

Disconnecting and even removing the pump will not affect your steering since you already have no power assistance, so it's perfectly safe for you to do so.

 

There is a thread where the guy tried to fix the pump himself, I'd be really surprised if the pump is different since for LHD cars you'd only need different length hoses and a shorter sensor cable for the LHD steering rack.

 

I bet you could fit that pump from the UK and the car would work just fine.

[gewstarr]

Big thanks, @sepulchrave!

Hey @devonutopia, is it possible for you to upload a photo of the pump you've selling? And what OEM no. does it have? £30 is very sweet price. I think I'll buy it! :-)

[devonutopia]

pic

 

part number - I believe it says 6Q0 423 371 - TRW - Just noticed above it says you need KOYO?  How old is your car?

[rum4mo]

I think that that was a killer blow, ie OP's steering system is Koyo and that pump is from a TRW system. This might be why the Skoda dealer's price is so high, ie I think that it has been said here that there are no plans to supply any Koyo pumps now, so a complete retro-fit TRW system is needed, or at least more than just a pump.

 

If the Swedish scrapyard's pump is Koyo, that will be good, but if not, are there not places that refurbish these pump assemblies? There is one UK based that re-manufactures ECU and electric steering pumps etc.

 

Edit:-  www.bba-reman.com   their picture shows a TRW type pump, but there is no reason why you can not contact them and request a rebuild of your Koyo system if they can handle it, maybe it is just an ECU problem , pump mounted ECU that is.

Edited 7 September, 2014 by rum4mo

[sepulchrave]

For £30 I'd still give it a go, a pumps a pump, maybe the sensor is different on the TRW pump but maybe not, I can't imagine the hoses and plugs won't fit.

[rum4mo]

For £30 I'd still give it a go, a pumps a pump, maybe the sensor is different on the TRW pump but maybe not, I can't imagine the hoses and plugs won't fit.

 

Common sense would make you think so, but even the TREs are different between the two systems, the pipe ends will be the issue as maybe be the ECU connector, as well as the sensor. Depending on your "get around" abilities, these sorts of anomalies can be show stoppers. I was under the impression/delusion that most of these Koyo issues were down to corrosion stemming from the water retaining properties of the acoustic jacket, so maybe just ECU internal corrosion issues - hence the "talk to BBA-REMAN" suggestion, either way if they are willing, they would give it a good "going over".

[gewstarr]

@rum4mo:

Big thanks. I'll look into it, but question is if a rebuild, especially I'd i have to do it in another, would much cheaper than a used pump of e.g. scrapyard or eBay.

@sepulchrave:

Yeah, I know it's a real bargain. However, I didn't think it'll fly. My money is on that pump ECU's work differently, thus not allowing one to shift pumps between TRW/KOYO systems, even if the physical connectors are the same. Still waiting to get this confirmed, though.

[sepulchrave]

Common sense would make you think so, but even the TREs are different between the two systems, the pipe ends will be the issue as maybe be the ECU connector, as well as the sensor. Depending on your "get around" abilities, these sorts of anomalies can be show stoppers. I was under the impression/delusion that most of these Koyo issues were down to corrosion stemming from the water retaining properties of the acoustic jacket, so maybe just ECU internal corrosion issues - hence the "talk to BBA-REMAN" suggestion, either way if they are willing, they would give it a good "going over".

 

I cannot imagine that different pipe fittings would be used since these are standardised the world over, and I don't doubt that the steering rack is different but I bet the hydraulic ratios are the same.

The PAS system is self contained and has its own ECU, it's hooked to the cars CAN bus which is how it communicates with the instrument cluster and has it's own warning light separate from the CEL.

I think if you were to disconnect it from the CAN it might still work since it has its own power supply, the instrument cluster would probably throw the warning light in the absence of communication but it should still function. As long as the sensor is compatible and the power connectors and the hoses fit the system should function.

I dare say you could recode the cluster to ignore the absence of PAS but I've no idea exactly how you'd do this.

[devonutopia]

Is it possible to change the rack to TRW as well though?

 

It wasn't too tricky changing mine to the vRS pump and rack (but they were both TRW)

[gewstarr]

Guys, I cannot thank you enough for being so helpful with input etc on everything.

Now, today me and my wife got to business. Most people will probably say it was a foolish thing to disassemble everything without even having ordered the spare part yet, but I'll tell you how it is, pump is so damn expensive so I figured I at least want to make sure that I can get the old one out before ordering the new one. First thing, the front, was actually kind of easy to get of. Only thing we notched was a pair of hidden front beam washers under a plastic lid. They seemed functional from the looks but they have never sprayed the front beam. Anyways, I managed to brake the mount on both of these, so I'll probably not be able refit properly. Not that I care, since I didn't even know they existed.

So, on my car fluid lid is sticking out under car battery so I didn't need to remove this to get to the pump. However, washer fluid reservoir had to removed, and it had one rusty 12 mm bolt that became a horrifying story. I tried a nut cracker but managed to brake it. Finally drilled and pulled with water pliers, managed to get the thing of.

Right now car looks kind of like a wreck, but I'll order a KOYO pump a.s.a.p.

Right now I've been washing my old pump in the kitchen, I'm thinking of opening it up and take a look inside, when it dried up.

I'll keep you guys up to date on my story.

[hutchysrs50]

Sounds good! Lucky finding headlight washers, do you have xenon headlights?