you might want to start a separate thread on this, but my first port of call would be to look at the mileage allowance on each deal.

Sorry folks. Posted on this thread as i was trying to get to the bottom of how the whole discount/pricing system works and a lot of members seemed to be posting on this.

Don't apologise to me, I just thought you were probably more likely to get an answer as this thread is well off topic now

I am going to try to take the taxi example that ants did a little further, which will hopefully try to explain better the whole dealer problem.

Let's say I work for a cab firm who is well established and has a nice little office in the high street which is well presented, we have a good reputation and are always on time, we always wait if the customer is running late and help load the luggage in and out of the car. The policy of our company is to run new executive cars, keep them clean and well looked after.

Over the years we have built a good reputation and are well used by our customers. All of a sudden a new guy starts up, but his policy is slightly different to ours he works out of his bedroom at home and runs 10 year old Vectras. He actually gives a reasonable service, but is significantly cheaper.

To begin with we don't really see an impact, but over time our customers start asking for discount, this is not a problem because they use us all the time so we give them some discount, because we know they will continue to use us.

However things are now at a point where much more people are aware of the other guy and his pricing, he gives a similar service and at the end of the day gets people where they need to be at a cheaper price.

Now every customer that gets in my nice new Superb wants to pay the price of the Vectra cab, but if I do it for that price it will loose me money, I have to pay for my new cab and our premises is a lot more expensive. So I negotiate with my customers and we agree that my cab is nicer, I am nicer and can do the same job for slightly more than the Vectra man.

Today is slightly different I start as usual and negotiate all day to get some work and look like I am going to make a small profit for the day, however the work I have done has actually taken me 100 miles away from home. I have 2 choices drive home without a customer, the cost of fuel will loose me all my profit and actually cost me money because I have done all the other work so cheap today, or I phone the Vectra cab man as I know he has a guy who uses him where I am. The Vectra cab man says I have a customer for you, but you must do the job for a price. I don't really want to do the job for that price, but if I do it means that I have not driven home to make a loss for the day, but I have broken even.

The next problem is, this now keeps happening everyday and fuel has gone up, my boss still wants his cut & I still have to pay for my car. If I am lucky a customer will come along and pay full up money then I will make a bit of profit.

Hopefully this will give some idea of the challenges dealers face every day. But essentially selling one or two cars at a loss will just enable you to make a small profit on the ones that you did not sell at a loss.

and the ability to do this is there as a mate had 5k off list on a Vectra estate last year, so somewhere in the original 22k asking price was still a dealer profit after they'd retailed it at 17k proving that this policy of asking 22k and then trying to make it look like the car cost the manufacturer 21k to make doesn't hold up.

saying you got discvount on a vx is like saying i walked into citroen and got 5k off a picasso, its what they do, every day, 24 7. in fact if you pay standard list price for a vx then youve been had. the reason is they have dug their own graves. its the same as citroen. the cash back system was meant to get people juiced up on how much they were saving. but now as soon as they pull the system from the picasso's they stop selling them over night, even if the price was a realistic one. becuase people expect every citroen to have the cash back offers on. its the same with ford and vx and pugs too. they discount so much that they build in these massive mark ups and realisically you never actually pay the list price.

but VAG cars dont do that. they dont have 5k profit margins. as ive said before ive got nothing to loose by being honest as im not going to be here beyond 31st. weather VAG are making more per car behind the scenes doesnt help the dealers. neither does hoping that your service bays would over come your loses at the sales side.

if you sold a average octy at full price the profit wouldnt pay most peoples rent for one month! get real about how much the dealer actually has to play with and you'd understand how it is. making thousands from a car sale is a dream from the 80's that shouldnt have relevance now.

I'd suggest that somewhere in the VAG chain, somebody is charging dealers too much for the cars. I somehow don't think they cost that much more to make since many cars are made out of the same essential parts anyway.

As for the 10 year old taxi example, you a) forgot taxi law and forgot that the inital firm provided a value add that people wanted, so kept using you.

If people don't actually care for your value add then they won't use you. At this point you either have to roll the company up and take your profit or find some way of providing a unique selling point that people do want.

Every business has stages:

- Seeding

- Starting up

- Growth

- Established

- Expansion

- Decline

- Exit

These are all natural parts of the cycle and if the last two didn't happen you would never get any new entrants into new markets. At this point all people would get ripped off as there would be no competition and the market forces wouldn't help to regulate things.

Would all you people defending the dealers also go and spend your money only at local independant, non chain shops, only eating seasonal food and buying fuel from independant fuel stations rather than use the chains and supermarkets?

All that is happening to the car dealers is the same that happened to small grocers. It will go full cycle as some people decide they prefer paying more for the smaller shop. However right now it's at the supermarket growth stage and that isn't going to stop any time soon, especially with the way the economy is going.

As a consumer I am after a good reliable product, at a low price with good aftercare. Thats all. If a dealer charges too much i go elsewhere but they'll still get my business when it comes service time or if i want any accessories etc.

Sounds mean but i only care about myself and what i can afford when it comes to a car. i dont really give a ****e bout dealers if they need to charge so much to break even. if its too expensive for me then tough luck. their loss. I just want whats best for me and if brokers is the solution then so be it.

Btw this is a great thread to read, you guys are really laying into each other.Bout time something exciting happened on this forum.

As a consumer I am after a good reliable product, at a low price with good aftercare. Thats all. If a dealer charges too much i go elsewhere but they'll still get my business when it comes service time or if i want any accessories etc.

Sounds mean but i only care about myself and what i can afford when it comes to a car. i dont really give a ****e bout dealers if they need to charge so much to break even. if its too expensive for me then tough luck. their loss. I just want whats best for me and if brokers is the solution then so be it.

Btw this is a great thread to read, you guys are really laying into each other.Bout time something exciting happened on this forum.

harsh.....but fair !

i opted to use a friendly helful dealer who was more expensive than a broker...BUT..he was only a couple of hundred quid more and by the time you factor in the dealer accessories done at a keen price and the sensible price on GAP insurance i reckon i am better off...plus hes a really nice chap and always answers my emails and calls within about an hour !! good price and good service..looks like you can have your cake and eat it !!

harsh.....but fair !

i opted to use a friendly helful dealer who was more expensive than a broker...BUT..he was only a couple of hundred quid more and by the time you factor in the dealer accessories done at a keen price and the sensible price on GAP insurance i reckon i am better off...plus hes a really nice chap and always answers my emails and calls within about an hour !! good price and good service..looks like you can have your cake and eat it !!

It takes your dealer up to an hour to answer the phone?!?!:eek:

saying you got discvount on a vx is like saying i walked into citroen and got 5k off a picasso, its what they do, every day, 24 7. in fact if you pay standard list price for a vx then youve been had. the reason is they have dug their own graves..

So lets look at it then

Vx built in Germany and Belgium, low wages? NO, Low parts prices? NO

Citroen built in France, low wages? NO, Low parts prices NO

Skoda built in Czech, low wages YES, Low parts prices NO

So what we have is two firms able to build cars in the Premier European countries using Bosch etc parts that can substantially discount list prices, yet a Skoda built in a country of low wage and establishing itself cannot? is this correct? the real reason is because they both know if you move the units other potential customers will eventually sit in them and may like them so much they go and buy one, just face it the whole VAG thing stinks, it's a company that wants to be BMW but knows it never will be, they have one half of the deal sewn up in the fact they produce desirable cars, if they sold them cheaper they'd have more units out there advertising for them, I never thought I'd see the day someone working for Skoda took the Audi attitude about things, granted they seem to be good cars, but they're no better than a VX and I should know I've had 12 of them working in the harshest enviroment a car can face other than racing, to sum it up for you bud, if I came to you in a yrs time for a Superb 2 and you wanted 17k for it and along the road the VX dealer was offering me the same spec Insignia for 12k which one of you do you think is gonna have some bonus money in his wages that mth, it's that simple, and with whats happening right now I think you'll be lucky to sell anything pretty soon.

It takes your dealer up to an hour to answer the phone?!?!:eek:

ha ha ha - i mean he returns calls within the hour. because he is so busy typing stuff on this forum he cant answer the phone straight away

So lets look at it then

Vx built in Germany and Belgium, low wages? NO, Low parts prices? NO

Citroen built in France, low wages? NO, Low parts prices NO

Skoda built in Czech, low wages YES, Low parts prices NO

So what we have is two firms able to build cars in the Premier European countries using Bosch etc parts that can substantially discount list prices, yet a Skoda built in a country of low wage and establishing itself cannot? is this correct? the real reason is because they both know if you move the units other potential customers will eventually sit in them and may like them so much they go and buy one, just face it the whole VAG thing stinks, it's a company that wants to be BMW but knows it never will be, they have one half of the deal sewn up in the fact they produce desirable cars, if they sold them cheaper they'd have more units out there advertising for them, I never thought I'd see the day someone working for Skoda took the Audi attitude about things, granted they seem to be good cars, but they're no better than a VX and I should know I've had 12 of them working in the harshest enviroment a car can face other than racing, to sum it up for you bud, if I came to you in a yrs time for a Superb 2 and you wanted 17k for it and along the road the VX dealer was offering me the same spec Insignia for 12k which one of you do you think is gonna have some bonus money in his wages that mth, it's that simple, and with whats happening right now I think you'll be lucky to sell anything pretty soon.

but hang on a sec, skoda are selling the same build quality and equipment as vw and audi, but at a cheaper rate? same as chevy do with vx. so comparaitively they re cheaper than other equivilant products.

and skoda taking an audi attiude? i really dont think so. ive said time and time again im happy to negoitate and barter on cars all day long, its part of the job. but if you cant grasp the fact that other marques are able to build more profit into their cars and therefore offer more off then theres no help for you.

of course if you can buy a vx for 12k and the equivilant superb is up for 17k there could be a problem, but i hope that wont happen. the difference in price may well mean the skoda superb is a bit more expensive, but then if you like the skoda, and want it then why would you settle for the vx? not everything comes down to price, and even then is cheapest always best? i mean ive got a vx background myself, and theres not been a car that they have that is as nice to be in, or to drive as the superb. the insignia might be different, but the reason i dont sell vx is they are a cheaper quality product to skoda. that might matter to a fleet, but i dont deal with fleet buying. but if im paying out for a car thats going to last me for a few years i would pick the skoda over vx, even if it was a bit more pricey. and i doubt im alone, otherwise there would only be cheap plastic cars for sale wouldnt there?

end of the day you cant appeal to everyone, i i think skodas pricing are fine. they are less than audi and vw, and more in line with seat. ok they are getting more expensive, but then it seems like everyone else is too, hence why there is chevy, kia, and other budget brands to fill the voids.

, and with whats happening right now I think you'll be lucky to sell anything pretty soon.

and as for your last comment, i sell enough to make my ends meet here, and enough to turn a profit for the company, as my customers see the benefit of paying a little more to get a much better service and actually treating with respect. i will continue to shun brokers and instead offer all my customers a good deal not just the ones who come in waving a hastily printed off qoute (which sometimes is just that, a quote not a guarrenteed price). you can sit there and doubt me, but i know ive never sat there and laughed at how much money ive just bent a customer over for, instead im normally happy to have delivered the best car for the customers needs, at the best price for everyone involved.

but if everyone thought like some people in this thread i can promise you that dealers would disapear and maybe instead you would find it impossible to go and simply view cars, or test drive them. instead i can see that some intelligent soul will simply offer to let you test drive his car for a fee, then you order from the net, for a feee and have it delivered to your home, for a fee. no assistance or help from anyone, nor a face to come crying to if you have a problem. all you can do is send emails to a faceless company somewhere.

now that may be fine when you buy a tv or hifi, as if they break it does means you dont get to watch eastenders, but if that happens to your car, meaning you cant work, or you have to rent a car to replace it while the service centre fixes it, is it so acceptable then?

dont have nightmares kids

You're taking this way to personally Woody, if you can't discount because the margin isn't there, and I do believe you on that btw, then it just proves VAG as a whole is too expensive, if they won't be more realistic on what they charge their dealers will go to the wall before long, and I know of 2 that have shut up in the last mth so the writing is on the wall, there was a time when the B5 Passat totally outclasssed it's class, but now it's all changing, the new VX and Toyota models due for release easily compare with the latest Passat, add in the Mondeo and PSA cars being a lot cheaper and available, like I said the others build with the same sourced components and in wage high countries, the most of them will deal, and in the times ahead cheaper is King, disposable money has left the building once again, and until it returns VAG are going to struggle.

And it's not my wish to see dealers fold, I know what you mean with net purchasing, and if I wanted a new car and a dealer could supply it for £100 more than a broker, the dealer would get the business just for the conveniece of things.

whats the longest thread ever on briskoda...this one must be getting close !

longest/ aggressive

A couple of other things I've read in your last reply that I missed Woody

1 - Superb being nicer than anything VX previously, I have to agree up to the Omega, this was a very good,large comfortable car, engine wise the VAG PD is better than the engines fitted to the Omega, though the V6 petrol units were better than the Superbs.

2 - VW and Audi are well overpriced anyway, the Skoda range pricing is what a VW should be and Skoda cheaper.

Anyway, as I said earlier there's no problem with you personally, you do what you have to, and if you can do what I would call a good deal in the future maybe we can talk, I read James' stock list prices, and although they still aren't bargain prices they are £1200 less than my local dealers offer would be, I'm not a Skoda company fan, I do like what the cars offer in the way of performance and economy, but looks wise in the generation cars they look sadly a bit old in design, if I buy as Superb 2 it will be because of the legroom in the back, the 35mpg the DSG should return under cabbing conditions overall, but it will always be in my mind that I have to take it to the local crew who I've not got faith in for repairs, something with a VX that I don't have to worry about as they've always seemed to try a lot harder, btw my local VX dealer is aweful on the sales side of things, you'd think they were a Bentley dealer the way they deal.

longest/ aggressive

i wouldnt say its agressive though, unless you start refering to my mother, then it might get agressive

You're taking this way to personally Woody

dont get me wrong, i know your not having a pop at me as a indivdual. im just putting up the point from a dealer point of view.

after all if it wasnt for in depth discussions and varying opinions we all have we'd all be driving fords by now!

I've been reading this thread with great interest, but not really had much to add. However, I did find another new Superb with a huge discount:

Check out: Falmouth Garages Penryn Cornwall

and then scroll down the list of cars for sale. You'll find a steel grey 2.0TDI 140 DSG Elegance.

New price: £ 23,235

Save: £ 3,240

Our Price: £ 19,965

This is their demonstrator and now has about 1000 miles on it.

I proceeded to have a very interesting chat with one of the chaps who works there, where he echoed the sentiment that VAG are just charging too much for the cars, especially considering they are now in an oversupply situation.

Given that customers could buy a pre-reg car for 3-4 grand less than list, why would anyone buy new (unless it was a fleet purchase)?

He also thinks that the days of volume bonus are numbered, as it is driving behaviour from dealers which leads them to cut their own throats a lot of the time. I can see his point, especially after reading this discussion.

Bagpuss.

Given that customers could buy a pre-reg car for 3-4 grand less than list, why would anyone buy new (unless it was a fleet purchase)?

Bagpuss.

cos no-one will ever have a 1.8TSI DSG with an options list as long as your arm as a demo !!!

cos no-one will ever have a 1.8TSI DSG with an options list as long as your arm as a demo !!!

That wasn't my quote, but from the garage guy. I understand completely why you factory ordered, but I think you are probably in the minority.

Bagpuss.

That wasn't my quote, but from the garage guy. I understand completely why you factory ordered, but I think you are probably in the minority.

Bagpuss.

i agree. i am happy to be a minority !!! there again most skoda buyers are the (clever) minority !!!

This has turned up on AutoTrader. Lovely spec, even got the upgraded sound system, although no park assist :( ...

2008 58 Reg SKODA SUPERB 2.0 elegance dsg

4 Doors, Automatic, Saloon, Diesel, 1,000 miles, Metallic rosso, 1 Owner. 18" Alloy Wheels, 3rd Centre Headrest, Balance of 3year warranty if applicable, Carpet Mats, Dual Zone Air Con, Ivory Leather Interior, Maxi Dot and Multi Func Steering wheel, Rain Sensor, Satellite Navigation, Xenon headlights, ABS, Adjustable seats, Adjustable steering column/wheel, Anti theft system, CD Multichanger, Central locking, Child locks, Climate Control, Colour coding - Body, Colour coding - Interior, Computer, Cruise control, Driver airbag, Electric mirrors, Electric windows, Foglights, Front armrest, Electrically adjustable seats, Headlight washers, Folding rear seats, Leather seats, Locking wheel nuts, Lumbar support, Immobiliser, Metallic paintwork, Multi function steering wheel, Park distance control, Passenger airbag, Pearlescent paint, Power assisted steering, Rear armrest, Remote locking, Side airbags, Radio/CD Multichanger, Full Service History. upgraded sound system, hill hold control,auto dip rear view mirror £21,995

silly muppets dont say which engine though ? PD or CR ? !

here is the link :

Auto Trader UK - SKODA SUPERB 2.0 elegance dsg

also this one has appeared :

Autotrader - Skoda Superb Hatchback 5-Dr 1968 cc 2.0 TDI CR Elegance DSG

There is also one on ebay (Elegance spec) as a classified ad. £22995 I think, if memory serves. Also a delivery mileage brand new Mk1 for £17995.