Guys

Bear with me if I am stating the absolute obvious here but here is something I was pretty sure of and is now support by VCA stats.

I was only looking at DSGs, they are outstanding automatics and I would not be without one in a car, I do about 20,000 a year mainly on motorways.

The best engine/fuel for performance/cost is the 1.8 TFSI 160bhp Petrol

Now I had looked into it and worked out that the CO2 rating was exceptional and the miles per gallon, good, especially when the diesel driver is being hammered at the pump (ie me for the last 5 years)

So I ordered the 1.8 DSG Elegance.

But now, looking ate the VCA figures I was absolutely right.

Diesels

140bhp DSG £1,485 per 12,000 miles / CO2 177 (ie Tax Group E)

170bhp DSG £1,331 per 12,000 miles / CO2 159 (tax group D)

Petrol

160bhp DSG £1,453 per 12,000 miles / CO2 165 (tax group D)

140 bhp diesel is £460 more expensive than the Petrol 160bhp:thumbdwn:

170 bhp diesel is £1,510 more expensive:thumbdwn:

So in cost comparison the 140bhp costs you £460 more to purchase, costs more in fuel per annum and is not as fast as the cheaper petrol variant.

and, the 170bhp costs more but will in 12 years time :eek: break even with the petrol overall, without any gains in performance.

having said that, I have probably missed something, somewhere,

Can someone put me straight, or is it really this simple?

Thanks

exactly the reason i bought the petrol. thank you for being the voice of reason. too many people jump on the diesel bandwagon without doing the calculations you did !! well done !

How about resale value?

Sorry, not quite correct

The petrol 1.8 DSG uses more fuel than the two diesels

Combined mpg figures are

140hp PD DSG is 41.5mpg

170hp CR DSG is 46.3

160hp TSi DSG is 34.4

I had an all day test drive recently in an Elegance 140hp PD DSG.

Did about 200 miles and averaged 48mpg

When I had an Audi A6 1.8T Multitronic, I averaged about 35mpg

I'm not in either the petrol or diesel 'camps'. I know the 140 hp diesel is £460 more than the the 1.8TSi but I think the residuals will be better in 3 to4 years time

I think the big problem for the 1.8TSi DSG early on was the incorrect CO2 figures that Skoda published. As most Superbs will go to fleet buyers, the incorrect figure will have resulted in most of the very early life fleet sales being diesels.

Had the correct figure been available when I was placing my order, then I would definitely have gone for the 1.8TSi DSG. Oh well, that's the penalty you pay for being an early adopter, I guess.

Bagpuss.

IMHO how about simple 'driveability'. I would not go back to petrol through choice, as a high mileage user it has to be diesel for me. I prefer the torque & general characteristics of a diesel, especially when towing. You will never end the petrol/diesel debate, no matter how hard you try, just be happy with your personal choice!

PS: Will the poster who constantly knocks diesels please desist, it really has no place on this forum, your entitled to your opinion but not to constantly mock those of us who choose an alternative, thanks!

IMHO how about simple 'driveability'. I would not go back to petrol through choice, as a high mileage user it has to be diesel for me. I prefer the torque & general characteristics of a diesel, especially when towing. You will never end the petrol/diesel debate, no matter how hard you try, just be happy with your personal choice!

Like you I loved the driveability of my 1.9 - 130TDi Superb, loved the "easy" power it gave, and felt the same in many other diesel powered cars I have driven. However, dont let anyone be to quick to knock the 1.8TSi. I have this engine in my Octy and honestly it drives very like a diesel in giving easy low rev pull (prob not quite as strong) but is so much smoother and quieter.

I have not driven either the 2.0 TDi nor the 1.8TSi in the superb so cant comment directly, but would advise those with the choice to try both before automaticly opting for one camp or the other.

Here in Ireland the 1.8TSi is priced between the two 2.0TDi's, and the diesel's are cheaper to tax so I would go back to diesel IF I bought the new Superb

So when are you placing your order Bryan??

Sorry, not quite correct

The petrol 1.8 DSG uses more fuel than the two diesels

Combined mpg figures are

140hp PD DSG is 41.5mpg

170hp CR DSG is 46.3

160hp TSi DSG is 34.4

I had an all day test drive recently in an Elegance 140hp PD DSG.

Did about 200 miles and averaged 48mpg

When I had an Audi A6 1.8T Multitronic, I averaged about 35mpg

I'm not in either the petrol or diesel 'camps'. I know the 140 hp diesel is £460 more than the the 1.8TSi but I think the residuals will be better in 3 to4 years time

Hi PowerMalc,

The figures I used are from the VCA carfueldata.org.uk government website. I chose to use those as the tax on the car will be derived from their figures.

I have had two great diesel Octavias, one 105bhp and the other 140bhp, both were exceptional drive, which is why I have ordered a new Superb. On my 140bhp Octavia I routinely get 57 - 60 mpg

The only reason I looked at the Petrol was because of:-

a. Cheaper than the diesels - ie can get more goodies in car.

b. lower CO2 - therefore lower tax than 140bhp diesel

c. The 12p - 13p extra hike on Petrol prices for Diesel

d. It's a company car, I keep it for 42 months then get another :-) so residuals are not really my problem as this doesn't seem to have reflected much in my lease costs.

VCA Extra Urban figures:-

140hp PD DSG is 51.4

170hp CR DSG is 55.4

160hp TSi DSG is 49.6

I do most of my mileage on the motorway

My intention was to share this research in one place as it confirmed my mental arithmetic I was doing in the showroom :-)

Diesel or Petrol, is always a personal choice, but financially it seems to be favouring the Petrol, for me anyway.

IMHO how about simple 'driveability'. I would not go back to petrol through choice, as a high mileage user it has to be diesel for me. I prefer the torque & general characteristics of a diesel, especially when towing. You will never end the petrol/diesel debate, no matter how hard you try, just be happy with your personal choice!

interesting point. I know where you are coming from - i would not really like to tow with a normally aspirated petrol. I first towed with a Peugeot 405 TD and even in that old tech engine the torque was a real bonus. When i moved to petrol (as i now dont do the mileage to justify a diesel) i made sure i went for a turbo petrol. I currently tow with a 1.8T petrol passat. It pulls my large caravan like a train. so much better than a non turbo car (my dad has a 1.8 laguna and its like "chalk and cheese")

Like another poster says, dont confuse the turbo petrols offered by the VAG group with ordinary petrols. They are like the old V6 petrols in that they have the torque but they do not come at the expense of silly ecomomy. (i know 35mpg is not excellent but with the extra cost of diesel at the moment then the break even point on fuel costs muct be in excess of 15k)

If you are a private buyer who does average mileage and are towing then the petrol is a good choice. I accept that the 170CR will knock spots off the petrol when it comes to pulling power and that might be what you want / need. But i would say go into it with an open mind and look at the petrol as well - dont dismiss it as an underpowered towcar (remember it narrowly missed out to the diesel in the towcar of the year awards). The issue is finding a petrol to drive !! i couldnt find one and had to make a leap of faith. Having had two 1.8T petrol cars for the past 5/6 years i made an assumption that the 1.8TSi will be at least as good (and more likely be much better) as my current engine. - i hope this comes true !!

i understand that some people like the diesels - they do not need one or have to have one but simply choose to have one. Not a choice i would make but if we were all the same the world would be a very wierd place wouldnt it !!

all you diesel drivers can have the last laugh anyway - i am told (from someone high up in skoda UK, via my dealer) that there is a big shortage of petrol engines with DSG and that is why my car is delayed. and there was me thinking "glad i didnt order a sunroof" !!!

Slightly off topic! Spoke to an owner driver last night with a 1.8t Passat (05reg) & he gets 24mpg as a cab, just about what I imagined him to get & some way behind my 30+, both are manuals so with the DSG (just to get somewhere back ot!) you would lose at least 4mpg on predominantly urban work. Yes the DSG/Auto has a comfort benefit & I would never deny that but as a business proposition I couldn't afford 1, well not til I'm 60 & semi retired anyway!

PS: My mileage to 1 year old on my Carens was just over 40k with year 2 expected to be higher as I have a part time driver for weekends now, it doesn't take much to work the maths out to see why petrol/DSG/Auto doesn't work for me!

So when are you placing your order Bryan??

To be honest maybe never :( - am on notice in my job, and the way the job market is here in Ireland who knows when will end up back in any job, never mind one that will allow me to change my car for a new Superb

Slightly off topic! Spoke to an owner driver last night with a 1.8t Passat (05reg) & he gets 24mpg as a cab, just about what I imagined him to get & some way behind my 30+, both are manuals so with the DSG (just to get somewhere back ot!) you would lose at least 4mpg on predominantly urban work. Yes the DSG/Auto has a comfort benefit & I would never deny that but as a business proposition I couldn't afford 1, well not til I'm 60 & semi retired anyway!

PS: My mileage to 1 year old on my Carens was just over 40k with year 2 expected to be higher as I have a part time driver for weekends now, it doesn't take much to work the maths out to see why petrol/DSG/Auto doesn't work for me!

fully understand !!!

which is the most economical combination for you then ? does the greenline make sense ?

VCA Extra Urban figures:-

140hp PD DSG is 51.4

170hp CR DSG is 55.4

160hp TSi DSG is 49.6

Busta

Looking at these figures I see where you're coming from, theres very little in it.

I've had two VAG 1.8 turbos before but as this is a private purchase I'm erring on the side of a diesel partly because of better residuals.

Having said that I see Skoda are bringing out an Octavia 1.4 TSi with the DSG box which gives about 45mpg. I might wait a while to see if they put this box in the Superb 1.4

If you are going to do much towing there is a major difference between the petrol and the diesel. The diesels except the 105PD are allowed to tow 1800kg, while the petrols are limited to 1500kg, at least here in Norway.

exactly the reason i bought the petrol. thank you for being the voice of reason. too many people jump on the diesel bandwagon without doing the calculations you did !! well done !

Ah, but for me it's about the pleasure in driving diesel engines. I do about 20 - 25k miles per annum, mainly motorways and diesels are the ultimate cruisers with the power where it's needed in that 50 -90 band.

The Skoda's especially have longer gearing than the VWs and it just makes for extremely relaxing cruising with an engine ticking over at 2100 revs.

Had 2 Mark 1 Superbs back to back for the last 5 years (both 130 PDs), but now back in a VW with the 3.0 CR TDI.

I just wouldn't drive petrol as you just can't relax...

If you are going to do much towing there is a major difference between the petrol and the diesel. The diesels except the 105PD are allowed to tow 1800kg, while the petrols are limited to 1500kg, at least here in Norway.

yes - its the same for the UK. However towing 1800kg would be a bit scary i think as this is about 120% of the kerb weight of the car !!! accepted guidelines recommend 85% as the ideal and 100% as the max if you are an experienced tower. going for 1800kg behind a superb might make it tricky to control in the event of a snake or going downhill. You also need to check the weight of the car and caravan dont exceed the gross train weight of the oufit. it is illegal to go over this stated weight.

I did look at this figure and wonder if the deisel might hlep with towing weights but i decided that we only tow 3/4 times per year and our caravan is about 1350kg fully laden..

you do raise a good point for others to consider though.

Ah, but for me it's about the pleasure in driving diesel engines. I do about 20 - 25k miles per annum, mainly motorways and diesels are the ultimate cruisers with the power where it's needed in that 50 -90 band.

The Skoda's especially have longer gearing than the VWs and it just makes for extremely relaxing cruising with an engine ticking over at 2100 revs.

Had 2 Mark 1 Superbs back to back for the last 5 years (both 130 PDs), but now back in a VW with the 3.0 CR TDI.

I just wouldn't drive petrol as you just can't relax...

Fair enough - my petrol does rev higher than that when cruising. it is the old 5 speed so i think the new 6 speed will help that a bit. i guess for me its the opposite - the low down grumble and increased noise of the diesel means i cant relax at low speed. I am hoping that with the DSG giving 7 gears this will give a good cruising gear with low revs

Many people dierctly choose the diesel wiouth giving a look at the the petrol. Many of them haven't driven a petrol since they had a little car with a 50-60 BHP engine when they were students: a Fiesta, a Polo, a Punto, a Corsa. Of course those cars where normally aspirated. Since that moment, they have always driven diesel cars, very happy with "these modern wonderful motors"... whose power come from the turbo, not from being diesel.

90% of people have NEVER driven a turbo petrol or a normally aspirated diesel. If they did it, they probably gave a chance to the turbo petrol.

And also many people justify the choice because of economical reasons: consumption, taxes, reselling value, etc. So what they are really saying at the end is "If I could spend more money, I would choose a petrol".

Hamburger vs sirloin

Why do people often eat hamburgers? Because they are cheaper.

Why don't they always eat sirloins? Because they are more expensive.

If a hamburger and a sirloin costed exactly the same, which one would you choose?

Now imagine: if we would live in an ideal world where petrol and diesel costed the same, the consumption was the same, and so the reselling value... which one would you choose?

So please don't say diesel are better. They are just cheaper

Edited 15 November, 200817 yr by Alvaro

Many people dierctly choose the diesel wiouth giving a look at the the petrol. Many of them haven't driven a petrol since they had a little car with a 50-60 BHP engine when they were students: a Fiesta, a Polo, a Punto, a Corsa. Of course those cars where normally aspirated. Since that moment, they have always driven diesel cars, very happy with "these modern wonderful motors"... whose power come from the turbo, not from being diesel.

90% of people have NEVER driven a turbo petrol or a normally aspirated diesel. If they did it, they probably gave a chance to the turbo petrol.

And also many people justify the choice because of economical reasons: consumption, taxes, reselling value, etc. So what they are really saying at the end is "If I could spend more money, I would choose a petrol".

Hamburger vs sirloin

Why do people often eat hamburgers? Because they are cheaper.

Why don't they always eat sirloins? Because they are more expensive.

If a hamburger and a sirloin costed exactly the same, which one would you choose?

Now imagine: if we would live in an ideal world where petrol and diesel costed the same, the consumption was the same, and so the reselling value... which one would you choose?

So please don't say diesel are better. They are just cheaper

thats a bit provacative !!!

bet everyone thought it woudl be me making comments like that !!

whilst i am with you in the petrol camp I do see the merits in some diesel cars. if i was buying a large 4x4 i would probably go for a large V6 diesel.

I can see why some people have to have a superb in diesel (short sighted or frugal fleet managers !) but you a correct in that many people dismess the petrol as they base their experience on normally aspirated and lifeless petrols.

the 170CR is a cracking engine. The 1.8T is , for me, a step above. its good that we have a choice of 2 very good engines. I walked away from some cars when i was looking as the petrol was weedy and diesel very very noisy. At least with VAG cars we get a pretty good selection of engines.

Just my 2p

The balance is this

Diesel is lower reving so in theory the components should last longer, i.e two engines, both done 60k, one has done 60k @ 2500rpm average, the other 3500rpm average, same miles but a whole lot less revelutions.

Non turbo petrol has less major component's to go wrong, i.e diesel pump,turbo etc

Residual, diesel is more desired, but also has higher otr price.

Petrol doesn't lag off the junction

Diesel pulls better when towing and has more relaxed drive at speed.

It's a hard call, if you got a diesel and it didn't have any major failures I think you will be better off, however, if you got a dog and it cost then the petrol would be better, I think overall if you are buying SH and the petrol is 2k cheaper this is the way to go unless you clock 30k pa.

So please don't say diesel are better. They are just cheaper

I think diesels are better personnally, stuff the cost of diesel I wouldnt go back to petrol, and I used to have an Audi S4 (V6 twin turbo) and a V8 motor, which was slower incidentently on the motorway.

Performance diesels arent any cheaper than petrol cars, it is the instant grunt on the motorway you can't beat. You need a seriously powerful car to live with the turn of speed of a diesel from 80mph. (Specially a remapped one ) and when the car is fully loaded with passengers and luggage you still dont need to down shift to get a move on.

Don't think I have ever dropped from fifth to fourth on a motorway above 60mph... that says something for it. Different driving style, relax take it easy and then if you want to give some one a hard time just press the accelorator - the joy of diesel.

My thoughts.

Many Superbs will be going to fleets as company cars, usually to be driven by "user choosers".

As a company car the 1.8DSG is a great choice, exceptionally low CO2 and low list price cf diesel makes it almost a dream choice.

However, as Bagpuss has already pointed out the CO2 figures were c*cked up at launch (Skoda originally quoted 195) which will have lost them a fair few orders.

In my case I requested a 1.8DSG Elegance and was told the lease was too dear but I am able to have a 170 diesel (manual) Elegance, for which the list price is actually slightly higher as the lease price is lower.

So if my undersanding of leasing is correct either i) the discount on the diesel is greater or ii) the running cost of the diesel is lower or iii) the projected residual value for the diesel is better.

Dan

Many people dierctly choose the diesel wiouth giving a look at the the petrol.

That might be the case in Spain, whereas in Sweden people have just recently started to opt for diesels.

The diesels are more energy efficient and emit less CO2. I have always driven petrol cars but recently begun commuting longer distance so the diesel option make more economical sense.

The 160BHP TSI is a very nice drive, and if I would have changed my Octavia for the new Octavia I think I would go for the 122BHP TSI with DSG, but since I am switching to the Superb the modern 170BHP CR DSG became my choice.

If I was not concerned with CO2 and energy efficiency, I would go for the V6FSI 4X4!

That might be the case in Spain, whereas in Sweden people have just recently started to opt for diesels.

Of course I'm talking about the spanish market. I don't know the situation in the United Kingdom, Sweden or Poland. In Spain the situation is beginning to change a little (but only a little...): last year 88% of brand new cars were diesel; obviously this seems to be a nonsense situation. Here, petrol cars simply don't exist for most of the people. As it's said in the final scene of Bladerunner, "I've seen things that people couldn't believe... 2 years old diesel saloons with only 3.000 km :eek: ... Mercedes CLK convertible diesel ... and things like those"

If I was not concerned with CO2 and energy efficiency, I would go for the V6FSI 4X4!

So do I