Service engineer is my job, and no not done an advanced course like IAM. Money finds other needs all the time. i also checked discounts when insurance was due, and didnt make a big enough difference to my quotes to justify the outlay v recovery of savings.

I hear this argument a lot and I guess it really comes down to whether you want to improve your driving, or whether you only see it as a way of reducing insurance premiums. I'd guess doing 60k miles a year, improving your driving would see enough benefits to justify the outlay? If money is an issue, I'm happy to see if I can find someone in your area who will give you a bit of coaching for free? Let me know...

Chris

On a slight tangent to the foregoing, I was reading a piece about specing up a new truck which included some "driving tips". One of these was that you can save significant fuel without really losing time by cruising on the motorway at 85kph rather than 90kph (52 and a bit rather than 56mph).

My thought on reading this was "yes, but only at the cost of reducing the width of the motorway by a lane a lot of the time", because the people who are cruising at 56 will all want to overtake you, and that only leaves 1 lane for traffic which is trying to cruise at 60mph+ (sometimes up to 90ish) to overtake them, and that can cause a rolling 1 mile bottleneck!

Check space in front, check rear view mirror, check wing mirror, check blind spot, increase speed to that of middle lane, check wing mirror & blind spot & rear view mirror again, move out, pass slower moving vehicle in left lane, check inside wing mirror, check inside blind spot, move back in to lane 1, return to previous cruise speed in lane 1 .

Sounds like you have all the ingredients and I'll see if I can hang them on the Police System of Car Control (as used in Roadcraft) to show you how you're using it

System of Car Control is made up of the following phases:

I - Information (Taking, Using and Giving information) - runs through whole System

P - Position - position on the road to negotiate the hazard

S - Speed - the correct speed to negotiate the hazard

G - Gear - the correct gear for the current speed. Considerations are what exit performance do I want from the hazard, ie do I want a low gear for maximum acceleration, or doesn't it matter...

A - Acceleration - the final phase where we accelerate through and out of the hazard.

So putting this with your example (let's say you're doing 56mph behind an HGV and there's traffic (maybe Gadgetman ) approaching in lane 2.

(Information)(Take) A look at the rear of the truck shows GB plates so we're happy the vehicle is likely to be RHD (and well driven )

(Information)(Take) Rear mirror check - one behind in lane 2 who is closing.

(Information)(Using) He is going to arrive at the point where I want to change lanes at the same time as I'll arrive there so a signal would be worthwhile

(Information)(Giving) Right hand indicator goes on

(Information)(Take) Rear mirror check and offside mirror check - approaching car has moved to lane 3

(Information)(Take) Blindspot/over the shoulder check - all clear

(Position) Without changing speed, move out to lane 2

(Speed) Is the current speed of 56mph a good one to enter the hazard at? Currently, I'm thinking we're still waiting on some information about the situation ahead of the HGV so we want to maintain our escape route to our left.

(Information)(Take) Now we have a clear view of the situation ahead of the HGV in lane 1, we can see that the road surface is in good condition, dry and smooth. We can also see the driver in the reflection of his offside mirror, and being a model driver, we can also see him looking at us. The car that was in lane 3 has now returned to lane 2 ahead of the HGV so the overtake is on and we have a good amount of space to accelerate in to.

(Gear) Here, I want maximum performance to minimise the time I lose my safety bubble. In this case, it's not too bad as we have lane 3 to our right. So, maybe drop down a gear or two for maximum acceleration.

(Information)(Take) Final rear view mirror check - everything looks hunky dory....

(Acceleration) Get your foot down and move swiftly past the HGV

....

(Information)(Take) Now cleared the lorry rear view mirror check, nearside mirror check. Everything looks good and there's my space

(Information)(Take) Shoulder check to make sure no one is sat in the blindspot or doing anything silly - no-one will benefit from a signal as they'll be expecting you to return to lane 1

(Position) Glide back into lane 1 and trying to leave at least a 2 second separation gap from the HGV

(Speed) Not really applicable, but you can allow the car to settle back down to 56mph

(Gear) Relax the car into a nice cruising gear, eg 6th

(Acceleration) Not really applicable

Of course, that's a fairly simple example and with more traffic, there'd need to be more frequent mirror checks and confidence that traffic in lane 3 is not eyeing up the space you're intending to use before you commit to using it. Generally though you'll have a feel for it from the traffic patterns around you. A good example is if a car in lane 3 is being tailgated - chances are they're going to want to move into lane 2 at the earliest opportunity so an HGV sized gap might be just what they're looking for. Another example might be where there's a junction coming up where again traffic in lane 3 might be looking to come off. Conversely, if there is a car approaching in lane 3 at a rate of knots and lane 3 is clear ahead, chances of him wanting the gap are slim.

Phew - that's a lot of rambling - hopefully there's something in there that is useful! :rofl:

Chris

Presuming I'm the approaching car, and hence doing 70mph:-

From Chris's post above:-

(Information)(Using) He is going to arrive at the point where I want to change lanes at the same time as I'll arrive there so a signal would be worthwhile

(Information)(Giving) Right hand indicator goes on*

(Information)(Take) Rear mirror check and offside mirror check - approaching car has moved to lane 3

* I see your indicator going on, and run through the decisions in his post #52 faster than I can type this, never mind that signalling (mostly for your benefit since I won't be moving if there's someone with an overtake set up on me), and taking lane 3. I may well use a squirt of power once I'm out, so we don't finish up with you as the meat in a sandwich.

Good point, Ken. So looking at it from a following driver's perspective as an advanced driver...

(Information)(Take) I'm currently in lane 2 looking to overtake a car and HGV in lane 1. The car is still a way behing the HGV. Rear view mirror check, nothing behind.

(Information)(Using) The car is a good few seconds behind the HGV, but I'm anticipating that a) he will plan to overtake, he will decide to overtake when he runs out of road and reaches the HGV

(Information)(Giving) Either way, the car is showing no signs of wanting to overtake currently so I'm not considering a signal and intend to establish myself in lane 3 so when he starts the overtaking process he can do so more easily

(Position) Lane 3 sounds like a good bet and that will cater for the car driver doing a) or . Mirror checks, shoulder check, move.

(Speed) As Ken mentioned, if we're looking to assist with the overtake, ideally we'll want to make sure we're clear of the car before he moves into lane 2, as this gives us clear space on all sides. However, realistically, we probably just want to avoid the "meat in the sandwich" scenario and we can either hang back and see what develops, or use a bit of acceleration to clear the hazard.

(Gear) Select the gear related to what we decided we wanted in the speed phase

(Information)(Take) Final rear view mirror check - everything looks hunky dory....

(Acceleration) Accelerate through and out.

So the big difference here is that the following driver has watched the traffic patterns and observed a car is closing and will likely want to overtake in the future. Early position to lane 3, possibly even before the car driver knows he wants to overtake, and as a result no signal is needed.

Chris

My reasoning behind using throttle rather than brake to deconflict my lateral position with the other car (say Yegnold) and truck (say SMS) is that this way I'm not down to 56..60ish in lane 3, with Gadgetman impending on my tail!

also another point on motorway speed, some lorries do go along the flats at 40mph, limiters fitted vary from 52-56mph and coaches + foreign lorry drivers with no limiters going along at 70mph (illegal i know). Then hills where lorry speeds can get down to as low as 20mph with cars coming up on these at 90mph as vehicles that are not as slow trying to move into lanes 2 and 3 to get up to speed but with a 70mph speed difference this is where forward planning is needed from all parties.

Yeah mate; aside from the referenced (but not by name, since I won't give them publicity for advocating selfish driving) piece (qv #52), what prompted this was driving at 70ish on the M11 South, with everyone getting on at their best speed in free-flowing traffic until we caught some selfish t0$$*r in an SUV with what looked like an empty livestock trailer doing 40ish, and all 3 lanes slowed to about his speed until we dispatched the mobile chicane. I know you're stuck with a speed limitter etc, but my point is that driving deliberately slightly slower than most people in your vehicle class do just causes rolling jams.

One of the key things is to keep a safety bubble around you so that you always have an escape route if you need it. This is easy in lanes 1 and 3 as you have the hard shoulder/dead ground, but in lane 2 options are more limited. For example, try and time any overtakes in lane 2 so that you are not the "meat in the sandwich" between vehicles in lane 1 and lane 3. Not always easy, but it helps to keep your options open.

Chris

In addition to this, be extra vigilant when approaching junctions - there is usually a sign on the left indicating how traffic joins. Pay particular attention if traffic is merging from the left into L1 (as opposed to joining as a separate lane) as it seems a large number of drivers think the best bet is to blast down the sliplane without the slightest consideration of how they will merge. So be prepared to move over, or reduce speed to leave a gap - don't be the meat!

Also, make sure you are at an appropriate speed when you are trying to join!

Ta

PL

Edited 29 June, 200917 yr by phantomlurker
numptiness

Having been an HGV driver for the past 5 or so years, It seems that the main problem with lorrys doing various speeds seems to be the car driver:(

A lorry will leave a fair stopping distance between it and the vehicle ahead, then some blithering idiot thinks Golly theres a nice space there and move over to fill said gap which in turn means the lorry has to back off somewhat to maintain the safe stopping distance.

I will admit not all are professional drivers and apologises in advance but the worst culprits seem to be Irish lorry drivers as there vehicles don't seem to be limited the same:thumbup:

My reasoning behind using throttle rather than brake to deconflict my lateral position with the other car (say Yegnold) and truck (say SMS) is that this way I'm not down to 56..60ish in lane 3, with Gadgetman impending on my tail!

Yeah mate; aside from the referenced (but not by name, since I won't give them publicity for advocating selfish driving) piece (qv #52), what prompted this was driving at 70ish on the M11 South, with everyone getting on at their best speed in free-flowing traffic until we caught some selfish t0$$*r in an SUV with what looked like an empty livestock trailer doing 40ish, and all 3 lanes slowed to about his speed until we dispatched the mobile chicane. I know you're stuck with a speed limitter etc, but my point is that driving deliberately slightly slower than most people in your vehicle class do just causes rolling jams.

Kind of what I was getting at.

Many (wrongly) believe that 56mph is more economical (one reason for it to be used). The most economical speed varies by vehicle and can vary wildly.

You then have the fact of the umpteen cars and lorries I see parked on the hardshoulder (or car spun out) that's had it's r/h side caved in by some lorry trying to get back into lane one - usually non UK lorries. Most of the time these are no where near a junction so is either driver undertaking or lorry overtaking slightly faster than the car, car enters huge blind spot they have, lorry moves over CRUNCH.

My posts are just my 2p on all this based on daily experience of seeing accidents as I negotiate the m/way & A road network each day. I'm not driving at 56 in lane one exposing myself to risks and helping create issues for those trying to join/leave the m/way. I use all lanes as appropriate, and try to forward plan and spot problems as much as I can. I can usually tell a drivers traits easily, and get away from any I'm not happy with ASAP.

Chris I'll send you a PM.

Some good stuff here. One small point in Chris's post that I disagree with is the phrase "maximum acceleration". I don't really see the place for this on the motorway. Motorways work best when everybody tries to "flow", rather than "overtaking" as a separate manoeuvre. A slight twitch of the right toe at crucial times just to clear a potential bottleneck works better imho than dropping two gears and booting it, only to then settle back to your previous speed. The following traffic gets all confused, overtakes you, slows down, you overtake them again ... ad infinitum. Thus we get "waves" in the traffic, and the sudden inexplicable car parks.

Some good stuff here. One small point in Chris's post that I disagree with is the phrase "maximum acceleration". I don't really see the place for this on the motorway. Motorways work best when everybody tries to "flow", rather than "overtaking" as a separate manoeuvre.

I should probably clarify that my description was specifically for overtaking an HGV/coach where I'm mindful that there's a whole heap of blindspot (especially on a LHD HGV) and I want to spend as little time as possible in that area. Saying that, though, I may not be as objective about it as I should be as a result of having a very close friend who was taken out by a lorry while "trundling" past it at the speed of lane 2. Miraculously, the tow bar on her Corsa prevented damage to the fuel tank and the safety cell reamined in tact, just, which meant she was somehow able to walk away with just cuts and bruises but badly shaken.

With a car, though, where the blindspot is miniscule by comparison I'd agree that flowing past is probably a better, more considerate way of overtaking.

Chris

Some good stuff here. One small point in Chris's post that I disagree with is the phrase "maximum acceleration". I don't really see the place for this on the motorway. Motorways work best when everybody tries to "flow", rather than "overtaking" as a separate manoeuvre. A slight twitch of the right toe at crucial times just to clear a potential bottleneck works better imho than dropping two gears and booting it, only to then settle back to your previous speed. The following traffic gets all confused, overtakes you, slows down, you overtake them again ... ad infinitum. Thus we get "waves" in the traffic, and the sudden inexplicable car parks.

I see what you mean, but I think Chris and I are both talking about using a squirt of extra power in top to get clear of situations where you'd get traffic parallel in all 3 lanes, and then ease off to get back to your cruise. Why should someone you were going faster than get confused and repass you because you do that?

I see what you mean, but I think Chris and I are both talking about using a squirt of extra power in top to get clear of situations where you'd get traffic parallel in all 3 lanes, and then ease off to get back to your cruise.

I think Nick's point was about me performing S/C style overtakes in a motorway environment where I would actually find the gear to give most performance from my current "contact position" speed to clear the HGV as quickly as possible. In a diesel or torquey petrol, this might mean staying in top is adequate, but in my weedy 1.4 petrol it would most likely involve dropping a couple of gears, especially if it was an uphill stretch.

So, lots of things to consider when overtaking on a motorway

Chris

I think Nick's point was about me performing S/C style overtakes in a motorway environment where I would actually find the gear to give most performance from my current "contact position" speed to clear the HGV as quickly as possible. In a diesel or torquey petrol, this might mean staying in top, but in a weedy 1.4 petrol it would most likely involve dropping a couple of gears, especially if it was an uphill stretch.

Chris

I got that when I saw #63, but I started to answer Nick before it appeared, then got interupted in mid-message.

Yep, agree with the "little squirt" -oo-err, missus. Another alternative, of course, if the space is available, is to use an extra lane, and overtake the heavies in lane 1 from lane 3. That way the danger is lessened. Of course that's not always an option, and can confuse the following traffic as well, but it's another tool in the box. Mark Kendrick's Advanced Car Craft DVD has a nice section on motorway driving, showing the use of acceleration sense to minimise or eradicate time spent three abreast.

I sometimes do overtake heavies in L3 with L2 empty (usually when they've been identified as East European), but that doesn't solve the problem we were discussing of Yegnold trying to overtake SMS, and me trying to overtake both of them (unless we have an unusually empty 4 or 5 lane stretch) cos we only have 3 lanes.

Are any of you reading what I'm writing? :(

When I overtake stuff in lane 1, I increase my speed to match that of lane 2 before moving out. I do not become a rolling road block like some of you seem to think. This more often than not means that noone in lane 2 has to move anywhere, change their speed, or anything, for me to get past the lorry/slow moving vehicle in lane 1.

Sorry, Ed, we went off into a separate discussion there Apologies for the hijack.

Maybe not, or maybe you're not writing what you think you are clearly enough? I certainly did not get that you were accelerating from mid 50s to 70ish before changing lanes.

Are any of you reading what I'm writing? :(

I hope so, Ed Is there anything in post #53 that you'd have done differently in your approach - I had hoped it was the same as your explanation just a bit more fleshed out?

EDIT: Just re-read your post and it seems there is a subtle difference. In mine, I change position before adjusting speed (waiting for all the information), rather than adjusting speed and then changing position.

Chris

Ken - evidently not getting my messages across clearly enough I will try a bit harder to be more clear!

Chris - yes, I noted that you changed position then adjusted speed, I was under the impression that this was the very thing that gadgetman, Ken etc were being critical of as it quite often requires the people in lane 2 (quite often doing 75mph - 80mph) to move out to lane 3 or to slow down.

Arguably in that situation the slower driver in Lane 1 should not have moved out and required someone else to change speed etc?

If I have enough of a gap in lane 1 to accelerate to the correct speed (and slow down again if I determine that the lane change can not be made) - is it technically any more unsafe than moving out to lane 2 and then increasing speed? Is it 'wrong' to do it that way? I see it as inconveniencing less people like gadgetman who don't like to change speed in lane 2, when unable to move out to lane 3

Also your approach of waiting for information then increasing speed when in lane 2 could be difficult in a car such as the Fabia SDI for example, as speed can not be increased as quickly? Is this a valid counter-argument, or should you just wait until a massive gap if driving a slower car?

You certainly can't fault Ed for consistency:

only really ever moving out (and speeding up) when I pass a sliproad that has traffic wishing to join the m'way on it.

If traffic wishes the join the motorway and I'm going to be in the way' date=' I speed up to match the speed of lane 2 and move out, returning to lane 1 only when there's a gap I can use.

Sorry' date=' missed this bit. Whenever I move in to lane 2 I always make sure I match my speed to the speed of lane 2 first. I am able to do this because I leave a big enough gap between me and the car in front in lane 1, so my process is:

Check space in front, check rear view mirror, check wing mirror, check blind spot, increase speed to that of middle lane, check wing mirror & blind spot & rear view mirror again, move out, pass slower moving vehicle in left lane, check inside wing mirror, check inside blind spot, move back in to lane 1, return to previous cruise speed in lane 1 .

Are any of you reading what I'm writing? :(

When I overtake stuff in lane 1' date=' I increase my speed to match that of lane 2 before moving out. I do not become a rolling road block like some of you seem to think. This more often than not means that noone in lane 2 has to move anywhere, change their speed, or anything, for me to get past the lorry/slow moving vehicle in lane 1.

I'm glad that you quoted my posts before I modified them - I have modified the first one to make it more clear since, so reading the thread now my posts don't read exactly as they did when Ken read them.. but you quoted them all before I modified them