Back to the original OP and my 2p. I would add that you'll never get a really good traffic light grand prix in a fwd Octy, compare the length of bodywork aft the rear wheels to any other fwd hatch and you'll notice how much longer the ar$e of the Octy is than say your Focus ST. This rear over hang kills meaningful traction off the line, especially when you start upping the power. You need your spring rates and dampers set up to attempt to limit weight transfer backwards. Maybe forget traffic light challenges and go for in gear acceleration instead, say 30 to 70 on a dual carriageway in third instead and see how that compares with the Focus.

You're not really going to get much on the Focus, even with a map. They're very torquey and the 1.8T just doesn't have the pull to compete unless you start spending a reasonable amount of money.

And anyway, if you get mapped up.. then it's not a fair game until he's mapped up.... and then you definitely won't win!

Not wishing to be disrespectful of the all conquering Scoop as I use to own one. I too was that Scooby owner who thought that I was invincibly no matter what the situation. Don't get me wrong, they are a very easy car to drive quickly and you don't need much talent to do so. I am just wondering how many well sorted (and I mean very well sorted) Octavia vRS's you have driven to make such a statement. I would make the same challenge and ask you to blag a go in one. All I can say is ask my Scooby/Evo owning mates that have been in my car the same question. Every single one has the very same high opinion of their cars, that is until they get the @ss handed to them.

Scooby ownership comes with its own set of rewards and the list is endless, high insurance costs, bad fuel economy, high repair bills, high mod bills, bad build quality, high new car costs, etc. I think I made the right move and still do.

Just my 2p's worth.

Each to their own I suppose. I have driven a couple of vRS's. One with iro 290bhp, coilovers and bars and it was good, but I prefer the AWD abilities and reduced compromise it affords. Traction out of bends and especially when the surface grip is reduced allied with power and a very good chassis. I accept that out of the box they are let down by poor suspension components, but it is easily sorted, just as an Octy is easily sorted. Of all the cars I have driven, the best balance of power, handling, grip, balance and driver satisfaction came from a Litchfield Impreza Type 20. Nt the most powerful Scoob I have driven, that accolade going to a 560bhp monster a mate owned, and even the revered Type 25 with better components and more power seemed less satisfying than the lesser 20, as the 20 just seemed to have everything in the correct amounts. My own car had the T20 chassis set-up but less power, and this allied to a lot of performance driving tuition and practice on road, track and stage left me able to exploit its potential very well indeed. Potential I feel was ahead of a great many cars in a similar price bracket, and many above it.

WRT insurance, I used to pay £440 f/c, protected, all mods declared. My mate with the T20, a JDM spec import with very many mods paid IRO £550 or so, so not the massive amounts many think. Fuel economy I cannot dispute. The high repair bills are another misconception, with specialists such as Scoobyclinic charging £30/hr labour. I always found the cars very easy to work on myself, requiring no endless purchases of new designed socket sets or specialist tools, rather a simple socket set for every job. Modifications by comparison are relatively cheap sometimes. When you compare the 'Heath Robinson' Jabba rear ARB popular on Fabia vRS's which retails at £205, a much better Whiteline bar for my Scooby came in at £130. BC coilovers can be had for IRO £550, a veritable bargain. As for bad build quality, my 03 car required 2x elctronic sensors replacing in 3 years and over 60k miles. Our Skoda's have a list longer than both my arms put together of faults, and even now the Fabia needs its calipers rebuilding, has badly worn suspension bushes and the clutch is showing signs of failure after just 34k; our Octy has had seats replaced, the airbag light is constantly on, the radio reception is dire, the seat hight adjust is broken, a door handle has come loose, the rear wiper failed, the headlights are terrible and the aircon stinks. I recently saw the new hatchback WRX selling for £13.5k too, which is a little cheaper than an Octy vRS methinks.

I'll leave it at that as you have your justifications and I have mine, and I very much doubt either of us will change our position, so BOT and apologies to the OP for disrupting his thread, but an £11k 06 STi running 300bhp with 4WD would be a better buy than a FWD 240bhp Octy IMHO if you want to win against the Focus.

/\/\ How do you like dem apples !!!!

Keep reading and typing.

I've been told that hearsay is also very good when replying to technical questions. :rotz:

PS.......and what my mate said!

PPS.......and fat bloke down the pub said!

And anyway, if you get mapped up.. then it's not a fair game until he's mapped up.... and then you definitely won't win!

It depends how you measure fairness.

The student at my place bought a brand new Focus ST which retails at £20,500, with the economy the way it is he hammered the dealer down to £17,000, but that is for a boggo spec car that - compared to my car - has one inch bigger wheels, one extra gear and some gauges.

So, he has similar equipment, a bit more power, a slightly smaller boot and he spent £15,300 more than I did.

Actually, that isn't fair, since I bought the car in February I have spent £3000 on repairs, servicing, upgraded suspension, tyres, brakes, cleaning equipment, styling mods and specialist tools.

So he has spent £12,300 more than I have and in the first 6 months of ownership he will loose so much money to depreciation that his hard work haggling will have become totally irrelevant.

I have no loan on the car and if I were to go out and bust the other 12 grand on the engine I'd be driving around in a missile.

That is what I mean by fair, already with only a couple of grand in mods I can beat him through the twistys and my car is only getting better.

Modding mine will have a (slight) positive effect on the value which will offset what I spent a bit, modding his will hammer the resale price even more.

Also, his is an obviously "fast" hatch, drawing attention from maggots. Mine is just getting more and more sneaky.

I love sleepers and my car will hopefully end up as a paragon of sleepiness.

The sleepy Skoda.

Each to their own I suppose. I have driven a couple of vRS's. One with iro 290bhp, coilovers and bars and it was good, but I prefer the AWD abilities and reduced compromise it affords. Traction out of bends and especially when the surface grip is reduced allied with power and a very good chassis. I accept that out of the box they are let down by poor suspension components, but it is easily sorted, just as an Octy is easily sorted. Of all the cars I have driven, the best balance of power, handling, grip, balance and driver satisfaction came from a Litchfield Impreza Type 20. Nt the most powerful Scoob I have driven, that accolade going to a 560bhp monster a mate owned, and even the revered Type 25 with better components and more power seemed less satisfying than the lesser 20, as the 20 just seemed to have everything in the correct amounts. My own car had the T20 chassis set-up but less power, and this allied to a lot of performance driving tuition and practice on road, track and stage left me able to exploit its potential very well indeed. Potential I feel was ahead of a great many cars in a similar price bracket, and many above it.

WRT insurance, I used to pay £440 f/c, protected, all mods declared. My mate with the T20, a JDM spec import with very many mods paid IRO £550 or so, so not the massive amounts many think. Fuel economy I cannot dispute. The high repair bills are another misconception, with specialists such as Scoobyclinic charging £30/hr labour. I always found the cars very easy to work on myself, requiring no endless purchases of new designed socket sets or specialist tools, rather a simple socket set for every job. Modifications by comparison are relatively cheap sometimes. When you compare the 'Heath Robinson' Jabba rear ARB popular on Fabia vRS's which retails at £205, a much better Whiteline bar for my Scooby came in at £130. BC coilovers can be had for IRO £550, a veritable bargain. As for bad build quality, my 03 car required 2x elctronic sensors replacing in 3 years and over 60k miles. Our Skoda's have a list longer than both my arms put together of faults, and even now the Fabia needs its calipers rebuilding, has badly worn suspension bushes and the clutch is showing signs of failure after just 34k; our Octy has had seats replaced, the airbag light is constantly on, the radio reception is dire, the seat hight adjust is broken, a door handle has come loose, the rear wiper failed, the headlights are terrible and the aircon stinks. I recently saw the new hatchback WRX selling for £13.5k too, which is a little cheaper than an Octy vRS methinks.

I'll leave it at that as you have your justifications and I have mine, and I very much doubt either of us will change our position, so BOT and apologies to the OP for disrupting his thread, but an £11k 06 STi running 300bhp with 4WD would be a better buy than a FWD 240bhp Octy IMHO if you want to win against the Focus.

Mmm, I paid £1700 full comp for my standard Scooby as apposed £325 for my first vRS. I got 18 - 20mpg from it and 40mpg from the vRS. The superb Subaru dealership network didn't want know when things went Pete Tong with the car and kindly relieved me of £75 an hour, and that was way back when. Everything that went wrong seemed to cost a grand upwards from the dealer to fix, it cost me an absolute fortune, 13k in 2.5 years approx. Oh yes a much better buy, not!

3K buys you lot of vRS these days, less than 11K would buy you mine, why settle for an STi. I think I know what car would slap the Focus harder, not that i would bother.

You are quite right on one point I will never change my mind, it's the last car I would buy again.

Maybe I am just bitter and twisted.

Edited 5 July, 200916 yr by delcac
carp spelling

So, he has similar equipment, a bit more power, a slightly smaller boot and he spent £15,300 more than I did.

he has a better base car that is stiffer and handles better as standard, a bigger engine thats instantly good for more power with better spool etc a far smaller boot though not slightly!! and cost doesn't really come into it as he bought brand new and at about the same price as a new mk2 vRS.

Sure, the newer car is (presumably, I don't have time to check all the facts) safer and is stiffer and a better base for tuning but I was making a point about fairness and - indirectly - value.

It is fair to compare a chipped MKI Octy to an unmodified Focus ST because of the cost compared to spec.

Nowadays, with modern materials and surface treatments 10 years and 100,000 miles is nothing for a car. I don't see any significant gain to be made by buying a new car and I can see a thousand down sides.

Cost is important to me and I looked at a lot of cars before choosing the vRS but I never even considered for a moment getting a brand new car.

It is just madness to me.

Saying "better" is subjective though, each of us weights each factor differently. I know some people who buy a new car every two years and just can't cope with the idea of having a car older than 24 months, others consider the ST to be the pinnacle of car design, others who will always buy a Ford and won't consider the alternatives.

I tend to coldly choose a car with no preconceptions.

Ah well, all told I know I would rather have my 8 year old Skoda than a brand new Ford.

if cost wasn't an option i would not have my octavia, as it happens i also drive an 8 year old skoda as i agree that second hand cars are far better value as i don't worry about a warranty etc like some do.

CLICK to help you choose your next ST beating car !

Select a few cars then click 'Go Racing !'

I have just got a new job, I have no debts other than my mortgage and I could easily afford the repayments on a nice new car so cost isn't really an option, I just liked the combination of features I got from the Skoda.

The short list also included a Subaru Legacy estate (old), a Vauxhall Senator (old) and a Lotus Talbot Sunbeam (really old), I ended up with the vRS since a friend of my father in law had one at an amazing price point.

I was actually able to afford to buy a second hand W12 Phaeton but the running costs were a bit too much in conjunction with a loan repayment.

In 10 years I'll have a 10 year old Nissan GT-R

I'll believe it until it's true.

Won't get 446 miles to a tank in a focus or a Scooby

446 miles on my last tank (38.6mpg), its the ideal balance between performance and economy.

End of day its not the fastest car but its sufficient for most driving, want something faster go buy an m3

if your getting 446 miles from a tank then your driving like a granny :eek:

The short list also included a Subaru Legacy estate

my mate has just bought a subaru legacy GT-B estate for about £2500 less than you have spent on your car let alone what you bought it for so he's over 4k better off than you yet has an AWD 280bhp twin turbo, does that make you a fool?

my mate has just bought a subaru legacy GT-B estate for about £2500 less than you have spent on your car let alone what you bought it for so he's over 4k better off than you yet has an AWD 280bhp twin turbo, does that make you a fool?

I love the Legacy GT-B's they were on my shortlist when I bought the octavia. Had to be a good sized 4x4 hatch or estate with a bit of a fun factor and good for gas conversion. I ended up going for the octavia because of the recomendations of several Gas fitters about the strength of the 1.8T and the economy when not diving like a loon Would still like to own a GT-B at some point though.

my mate has just bought a subaru legacy GT-B estate for about £2500 less than you have spent on your car let alone what you bought it for so he's over 4k better off than you yet has an AWD 280bhp twin turbo, does that make you a fool?

Yeah, I might be.

I decided not to go with it in the end, I just like the Skoda.

Bear in mind a lot of the costs I quoted would have happened no matter what car I bought:

Tax

Insurance

Vag Com (or equivalent)

Servicing

£500 on suspension (probably thereabouts)

£350 on tyres (definitely at some point in the first year)

After reading up on the cars and going to trusted mechanics for opinions I ended up here and I have no regrets or buyer's remorse.

There are as many reasons to buy a certain car as there are people to buy them and since for most people it will be (after their house) the most expensive thing they own they tend to put some thought into it.

It therefore follows that your car will be an expression of your individuality and (especially if you like it) will tell people a lot about your values and personality.

I see people driving around in some utterly horrible modded cars that I wouldn't be seen dead in (or even near) but I will never put them down since in most cases they have done it deliberately and they like it.

That is up to them.

The funniest thing though is this community.

We are all on here because we share an interest in a particular car brand, I personally don't like the Fabia but given the above I think we share a lot more in common than most would expect.

I sometimes have to defend myself for being a geek since I am a member on here but if you choose a car to suit your personality and your car is one of your most important possessions then doesn't it follow that you are more likely to get on with people who share the same car preference?

I don't know but I am enjoying this conversation anyway...

OP - You're comparing a 1.8T 4 cylinder to a 2.5T 5 cylinder

I had a crack at (and kept up with) a LHD Mk1 Focus RS at the Ring which I believe are 2 litre turbo 4 cyl and 210bhp standard... much fairer comparison in terms of performance and age to the Mk1 vRS than an ST would be.

When you consider with just a £400 remap you can get as much power out of the 1.8T as the 2.5T ST is getting as standard (or even just buy a Leon Cupra R or S3 with over 220bhp as standard in the 1.8T engine), it says a lot for the VAG engines IMO.

Go and drive an ST. You cant realy compare them. 2.5T 5 cyl lump blitzes the vrs in terms of pick up and torque in any gear. They handle quite nicely but could do with being a bit stiffer.

There is also the lovely 5 cyl growl they make!

Having said that I like the VRS but its too old to compare to the ST.

it wont blitz a well mapped vrs:thumbup:

I'll lend you my younger brother to go and smoke him. Literally

it wont blitz a well mapped vrs:thumbup:

for sure, but an ST with re-map and bolt-ons (intercooler, induction kit, turbo downpipe, flexi-pipe, sports cat, cat back exhaust) can see over 300bhp and 400ft/lb

I'll lend you my younger brother to go and smoke him. Literally

Don't lend him your younger brother, honestly.

I'll lend you my younger brother to go and smoke him. Literally

What you're bro lets blokes smoke him ....................:eek::eek::eek:

for sure, but an ST with re-map and bolt-ons (intercooler, induction kit, turbo downpipe, flexi-pipe, sports cat, cat back exhaust) can see over 300bhp and 400ft/lb

ya but, no but, ya but.......there are 600bhp vRS's running around. :P

What does it all mean......nothing, as there is always someone bigger and better than yo.

How much is the cheapest second hand ST? I bet there is a cheaper mk1 vRS running more power for less money. I have been known to be wrong, just can't remember when.