Halogens vs Xenon HID Upgrade

[Rincey]

Sorry to open this can of worms again but I will be ordering my new lights this week and kinda need to make a decision for what I am going to do.

I know some folks don't like the idea of aftermarket HID's being fitted, but as I already have projectors in there, I was going to give them a go. But before I do, I am wanting to ask how these lights perform with the Philips Xtream bulbs? Or what is the best halogen for Octavia?

I am going to give this more consideration before I make my final decision

Cheers,

Andy

[Anthony 1]

After market HID is not legal unless the auto levelling and high pressure wash are retrofitted along with it. Their is someone on Briskoda.net who is doing that.

[KenONeill]

Ballcocks; the DoT advice on the subject specifically says that, in their view aftermarket HIDs should be fitted with headlight washers and self-levelling, Therefore there is no legal requirement to do so.

That said, I'd just fit the Xtreme bulbs anyway.

[Rincey]

Legalities aside, I am just looking for any thoughts on which one is going to get me the better results. If the difference between HID's and Xtream is going to be minimal, I might stick with halogens. If it will be noticeably brighter, then I might try the HID's

[cheezemonkhai]

The HID's will be brighter, but they will likely dazel other drivers, even behind projector lenses (although less so under these)

Personally I just run +50% bulbs and although I had a try of the HIDs, they were quickly returned as I was blinding people on dark windy country roads.

[Rincey]

Were you still blinding them even though you were able to move the headlights down to their lowest setting?

[Babs]

If your projectors are aimed properly, you won't get the glare.

Of course, it's still a bright light source, and will blind oncoming drivers in pitch black. But so will normal halogen bulbs, and factory-fitted xenons

[Rincey]

Hehe there are a few Audi's near where I live and they seem exceptionally bright but are just stock - they seem to be on the A5's.

Going to try the HID's cos I will bug myself if I dont

Thanks guys!

[Gizmo]

The difference between the two is almost night and day

I am not convinced on the scatter/dazzle theory behind projectors either, as i have fitted a kit to someone's Superb and have driven towards the car at night - there was no more dazzle than what there is using halogens (the HID bulbs were however exactly the same length as the halogens they replaced, so this may or may not be a factor?) they obviously do not have the auto levelling system but do have the washers (it was an Elegance model), however if you keep your light clean anyway then even the washers should not be an issue.

The three BIGGEST factors with xenon kits are:

Stick to 4300K temperature bulbs (this is what they are OE and are the brightest and most efficient Kelvin temperature (fact - not my opinion)

Make sure the headlights are aligned correctly to begin with (so you don't dazzle others)

ONLY fit them into projectors (even the kits that claim to be suitable for reflector lights still dazzle according to most).

Once the 'conversion' is complete you can argue it is illegal as there is no type approval, but that can be said for 90% of all mods.

Some say they are 100% illegal, others agree with what Ken has said about the DoT's interpretation. (I'm not going down this road though, as it has been done to death MANY times before, and peoples opinions on them are pretty equally split)

[Rincey]

Thanks Gizmo - Happy to hear you have never really had any problems with these so I will be going them a go - got my eye on a set now for £65, so not too bad!

Andy

[vRS Carl]

I got a set of 50w HID's from HID's direct to replace my 35w kit from HIDS4U and the difference in light output again is amazing. They were £75 delivered

Oh and they DO NOT dazzle people. Either that or everyone is too blind to flash me

Carl

[cheezemonkhai]

Were you still blinding them even though you were able to move the headlights down to their lowest setting?

That would be totally pointless as the light wouldn't be sent down the road as far as with normal bulbs.

As for the lights properly adjusted, yes they were, and two different MOT centres confirmed this, one commented they were absolutely spot on. They also had headlight washers, so all that was missing was the self levelling.

The dazzle comments came from me driving on dark country roads and having more than one road user stopping or slowing to a crawl and flashing me.

It's all posted up on here, because I used a HIDs 4U kit.

IMHO if the car is jiggling around on uneven, twisty, country roads with no lighting, they are going to be too bright for some other road users.

Edited 19 January, 2010 by cheezemonkhai

[vRS Carl]

On uneven twisty bumpy roads even auto levelling lights would still dazzle people as they simply couldn't keep up with the wide range of movement

The auto levelling only works when it senses the car is heavily laden (iirc the sensor is on the rear suspension)

If you don't believe me stand drive down a road with speed bumps and see if your light pattern moves up and down or stays level. I guarantee it will move up and down.

Carl

[cheezemonkhai]

On uneven twisty bumpy roads even auto levelling lights would still dazzle people as they simply couldn't keep up with the wide range of movement

The auto levelling only works when it senses the car is heavily laden (iirc the sensor is on the rear suspension)

If you don't believe me stand drive down a road with speed bumps and see if your light pattern moves up and down or stays level. I guarantee it will move up and down.

Carl

Yes it will, but you know as well as I do the steps I went through and the fact I used a quality kit.

Regardless my point stands that it can cause problems even behind projectors.

This seems to be backed up by some of the guys that design the lights too.

[vRS Carl]

Yes it will, but you know as well as I do the steps I went through and the fact I used a quality kit.

Regardless my point stands that it can cause problems even behind projectors.

This seems to be backed up by some of the guys that design the lights too.

I wasnt doubting what you say and yes i know the steps you went through.

I was just saying that it isn't any different to the OEM setup on that type of road

Carl

[Anthony 1]

KenONeill, NOT the DOT unless you mean the Authority in the USA. The GB one has been DfT for over 10 years. Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.

Full Extract from The Department for Trade concerning After Market HID

ance and research > Road safety > Driver and rider safety

Aftermarket HID (Xenon) headlamps

Fact sheet: Aftermarket HID headlamps

December 2006

In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.

The following is the legal rationale:

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.

Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.

However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).

For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.

Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:

1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.

2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).

3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.

In practice this means:

1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.

2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.

3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.

Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.

In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above.

If you require any further information regarding the regulations covered by this fact sheet, please contact the DfT at the address below:

Transport Technology and Standards 6

Department for Transport

Zone 2/04

Great Minster House

76 Marsham Street

London

SW1P 4DR

Telephone: 020 7944 2078

Fax: 020 7944 2196

Email: [email protected]

[Babs]

In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.

And that says about putting HIDs in standard reflector headlights....

[Jon TDI]

Having had a H7R HID kit in my Leon for the past 18months, I've recently switched back to 50% brighter halogen bulbs.

To be honset, the H7R kit was only marginally brighter & had no defined cut off or kick up to the left.

I was really surprised how good the halogens were. Only reason I switched back to halogens, is that I have a pair of proper bi-xenon headlamps to fit & will be using the ballasts from my HID kit.

[gadgetman]

But as Baker21 said, a projector lens for halogen and a lens for Xenons will focus light differently. He should know, doing it for a living!

[skomaz]

But as Baker21 said, a projector lens for halogen and a lens for Xenons will focus light differently. He should know, doing it for a living!

So why do the new Honda Civics have reflector style lights with xenons - or at least my father-in-laws appears to... :S

[KenONeill]

...The same level of safety should apply.

Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:

...

As you can clearly see, the relevant text says "should", not "must". Therefore the statement you have quoted is a recommendation and not a statement of legal requirements. QED.

[Baker21]

So why do the new Honda Civics have reflector style lights with xenons - or at least my father-in-laws appears to... :S

I am not aware of the specific Head Lamp your refering to but nowadays most Xenon light sources use a module to project the light however Xenon light when it first came out was used in reflector's, the difference being that the reflector would have been designed for that light source.......

[Babs]

Some xenons are non-projector. The lamps have an inbuilt shutter, and obviously, the lamps are designed for xenon usage so will focus correctly.

If you fit a H1, H4, H7, etc HID kit to a projector, it will surely show exactly the same cut off and focus? Seems logical to me!

[Baker21]

Some xenons are non-projector. The lamps have an inbuilt shutter, and obviously, the lamps are designed for xenon usage so will focus correctly.

If you fit a H1, H4, H7, etc HID kit to a projector, it will surely show exactly the same cut off and focus? Seems logical to me!

Sorry mate but it may seem logical to you but it's not the case............ :(

[Rincey]

Well, I am going to get a 35w kit for the car and will do a proper review when they are in including pictures and any problems I get - will grab the missus too and she can help me take pics - but she will come along in her car so we can see what the impact actually is - if any