ECU Remap warning (from JKM)

[Babs]

My guess would be VAG-sanctioned tuning, as per the Oettinger stuff for the Mk2 Golf.

Oettinger give you a paltry 35bhp for £995

http://www.oettinger.de/en/product-88/volkswagen-1/golf_5-23/engine_tuning-1/2_0_tfsi_147_kw_200_ps_173_kw_235_ps_gti-159.html

[cheezemonkhai]

And dealer makes mental note that the car is remapped, he might even write that down somewhere in case of future warranty claims?

Good.

Why should people who don't map their cars be paying a higher selling price for their cars because those that do map and have issues with parts affected by the map.

Note I'm talking things like turbo issues due to extra boost and not oh no sir your armrest warranty is not valid because you had a remap. The latter just being silly.

If you want to remap you have to factor the possibility of repair costs in. It's unlikely with a good map, but at the end of the day there is that risk.

[Dodgy]

Good.

Why should people who don't map their cars be paying a higher selling price for their cars because those that do map and have issues with parts affected by the map.

Note I'm talking things like turbo issues due to extra boost and not oh no sir your armrest warranty is not valid because you had a remap. The latter just being silly.

If you want to remap you have to factor the possibility of repair costs in. It's unlikely with a good map, but at the end of the day there is that risk.

I must admit, I'd already decided not to get a map and I have already thought about the possible ramifications to me when I come to sell my 2010 plate car in 3 years

[rwbaldwin]

Bosch has had talks with the SMI and DVLA (and similar organizations in the US/Europe) as well as trying to find a solution for the 'warranty problem'.

My understanding is that VW will eventually allow the ECU to be unlocked in a similar way to a mobile phone but only when the warranty expires and for a fee.

They will also inform the SMI and DVLA that the car IS modified.

[cheezemonkhai]

Bosch has had talks with the SMI and DVLA (and similar organizations in the US/Europe) as well as trying to find a solution for the 'warranty problem'.

My understanding is that VW will eventually allow the ECU to be unlocked in a similar way to a mobile phone but only when the warranty expires and for a fee.

They will also inform the SMI and DVLA that the car IS modified.

As opposed to modified, can be modified.

I'd then guess that if a person said not modified to the insurance and there was an accident the software would be checked to see if it was or was not modified.

Either way, I don't see that it's such a bad thing for a safety critical piece of software.

Lets face it any old idiot can buy the equipment to remap, but if they don't know what they are doing they could overwrite the wrong bit of memory and cause something critical to not work, just when it's needed.

[rwbaldwin]

The unlocking of the ECU is considered to be a modification!

My guess is that insurance companies will say "why would you 'unlock it' if you weren't changing the software inside?" Prevents owners taking the map off before the vehicle is inspected and then claiming not modified.

DVLA will want to tax you more on the assumption your emissions may be higher.

[k.young]

This is really going to suck the fun out of owning a turbocharged VAG car.

[rwbaldwin]

It won't be just VAG cars.

Insurance for modified cars is a mess at the moment and this may improve things.

If you have a modified car you will need 'modified car insurance' to tax it.

Talks in other countries have resulted in proposals such as a list of exempt modifications and a high starting premium for the increased power, with reductions for modifications such as appropriate uprated brakes or suspension.

Modification is so vague at the moment and can include better ICE, sat-nav, etc. These will not be classed as modification in the future but will affect the value of the car.

The term 'Modification' will apply only to performance modifications.

Don't think any of this is due until 2016.

Edited 25 February, 2010 by rwbaldwin

[Tiger22]

Bosch has had talks with the SMI and DVLA (and similar organizations in the US/Europe) as well as trying to find a solution for the 'warranty problem'.

My understanding is that VW will eventually allow the ECU to be unlocked in a similar way to a mobile phone but only when the warranty expires and for a fee.

They will also inform the SMI and DVLA that the car IS modified.

VW should be forced to allow the ECU to be unlocked at any time, not just after the warranty has expired. If I want to waive any remaining warranty to remap my ECU then I should be fully entitled to do so. Whose car is it exactly? Pretty soon VW will be saying we can't drive on certain roads without their say so. Not happy!

[k.young]

VW should be forced to allow the ECU to be unlocked at any time, not just after the warranty has expired. If I want to waive any remaining warranty to remap my ECU then I should be fully entitled to do so. Whose car is it exactly? Pretty soon VW will be saying we can't drive on certain roads without their say so. Not happy!

Well said.

[Phil_P]

VW should be forced to allow the ECU to be unlocked at any time, not just after the warranty has expired. If I want to waive any remaining warranty to remap my ECU then I should be fully entitled to do so. Whose car is it exactly? Pretty soon VW will be saying we can't drive on certain roads without their say so. Not happy!

Not that I don't agree entirely with you, but playing a little devil's advocate...

In the software industry, you don't buy/own software, you pay for a license to use it. The same could apply to the VAG software running on the ECU of your car. You own the car, VAG own the software.

[rwbaldwin]

VW should be forced to allow the ECU to be unlocked at any time, not just after the warranty has expired. If I want to waive any remaining warranty to remap my ECU then I should be fully entitled to do so. Whose car is it exactly? Pretty soon VW will be saying we can't drive on certain roads without their say so. Not happy!

In theory that's OK. They are the only ones who can unlock it so they know to void parts of the warranty, BUT, which parts?

They would still be in the position where arguments about whether the modification caused a problem would still exist and this can be costly. Not sure if the nanny state would allow you to waive your warranty in such a way.

Many countries were happy for the ECU to be 'locked for life' on 'Safety Issues'. It was only the US that seemed to be against it. Reminds me of the no aftermarket parts proposal of 10 years ago - saved by the yanks on that issue too.

[cheezemonkhai]

The unlocking of the ECU is considered to be a modification!

My guess is that insurance companies will say "why would you 'unlock it' if you weren't changing the software inside?" Prevents owners taking the map off before the vehicle is inspected and then claiming not modified.

DVLA will want to tax you more on the assumption your emissions may be higher.

You may have a valid reason, although since you can still do diagnostics, I'll admit I'm currently hard pressed to find one.

Either way, lets face it there are enough idiots in modified cars insuring as if they are not.

Not that I don't agree entirely with you, but playing a little devil's advocate...

In the software industry, you don't buy/own software, you pay for a license to use it. The same could apply to the VAG software running on the ECU of your car. You own the car, VAG own the software.

I'm sorry but that's utter rubbish. It's down to the seller and local laws to decide that.

If you look at quite a few cases in Europe and the US, you often do `buy` software and also if you licence it you have certain rights.

The buying or licensing comes down to local laws and what the manufacturer does. It's interesting anyway, because if you damage your CD how many companies will send you a new one at a very small cost as you would expect from a licence rather than outright purchase.

In theory that's OK. They are the only ones who can unlock it so they know to void parts of the warranty, BUT, which parts?

They would still be in the position where arguments about whether the modification caused a problem would still exist and this can be costly. Not sure if the nanny state would allow you to waive your warranty in such a way.

Many countries were happy for the ECU to be 'locked for life' on 'Safety Issues'. It was only the US that seemed to be against it. Reminds me of the no aftermarket parts proposal of 10 years ago - saved by the yanks on that issue too.

Locked for life is a bit nuts, but you could take the German approach that the modification to the ECU have to be approved by a body like the TUV for use on EU roads.

Like i said there are far too many idiots about that think they understand software.

I'm sure the manufacturer will offer an unlock and warranty is totally void option. Maybe if people hadn't been taking the p*ss with removable upgrades to hide it for warranty work there wouldn't have been an issue.

I can see this making plug in tuning boxes more popular again.

[Phil_P]

I'm sorry but that's utter rubbish. It's down to the seller and local laws to decide that.

Perhaps I should have said it's not uncommon to license software. Anyway, we are OT so lets not pursue this here

[xman]

Locking down ECU firmware is no different to putting anti-tamper devices or seals on mechanical devices. The ECU was never designed to be a user accessible device. ECU firmware is just too safety and emissions critical for any tom,**** or harry to go in and mod.

Remember that manufacturers product liabilty is the issue here not just your insurer's worry. After the Toyota saga, if you go crash and burn your VRS with loss of life, firmware may be under the microscope.

Insurers (i.e. VAG corporate liabilty and individual owners) may very well hike rates on easily modifiable cars. I expect the EU to mandate firmware to be locked before long.

[supersport2]

Eclipse of Sunderland had no problems remapping my mates 59 plates petrol vRS, took ages to get past the security on my cr170 vRS on a 58 plate!

Cracking maps too!

[GriffoVRS]

Wouldn't be surprised if all manufacturers get forced into locking their ECUs down at some point in time due to emission rules and taxation classes.

The dealer will always still have the ability to update the ECU with any 'factory' engine management updates.

[mr.nik]

In the software industry, you don't buy/own software, you pay for a license to use it. The same could apply to the VAG software running on the ECU of your car. You own the car, VAG own the software.

I find this argument a little bogus. Irrespective of whether the software is owned or licensed - if I don't want to use it, i shouldn't be forced to! If I want to uninstall or not use Microsoft Office, I should be able to, even if I choose to continue with my license; and ideally I should be able to relinquish my license. The fact I am *licensed* to use something, as opposed to bought outright, shouldn't mean I am forced to use it.

Now - I'm NOT saying that the car and the software should be necessarily separable - you could argue that the two have to be used together and should not be separable (clearly VAG do) - but I'm saying that a license model does not by definition lock you in....

[G-slave]

hold on

1. It is possible to remap the MED17, if you are to believe these guys: http://www.fr-rtuning.com/Products.php

2. After a remap, the dealer will inevitably see this and should notify HQ

Have I got this right?

[shark_90]

hold on

1. It is possible to remap the MED17, if you are to believe these guys: http://www.fr-rtuning.com/Products.php

2. After a remap, the dealer will inevitably see this and should notify HQ

Have I got this right?

Yes, it is possible to remap the MED17 (and EDC17) ECU. However some are protected with so-called "tuning protection" (it's actually a security exploit/back door that's been closed) and to remap these, the ECU needs to come out and be read and written in boot mode.

And yes, ANY remap on an MED17 or EDC17 is detectable, even if it is "switched off" or put back to standard.

[Gyp]

Wow - 1024bit RSA is some serious encryption. Unless they've messed up in the way they've implemented it and someone can find a way to bypass it, you're not going to crack the encryption itself.

One wonders why they would want to do this?

My understanding is that as cars become more computerised, more interconnected and more online, there is an increased risk of external interaction with the car's electronics.

A virus if you like.

If might sound fanciful, but as the engine controls, brake controls, gearbox controls, navigation, phone etc all get linked on a common bus with the ability to talk to each other, and can start to talk to the outside world the need to protect the systems safely from interference increases.

So, as VAG, which risk would you take? The risk that some of the small% of customers that remap their cars may change brand, or that some evil foreign power (Peugeot?) or criminal element disconnects the brakes and nails the throttle on all of their cars, simultaneously, world-wide?

Do you feel lucky? Well, do you?

[shark_90]

Are you being serious?

[vRS Carl]

My understanding is that as cars become more computerised, more interconnected and more online, there is an increased risk of external interaction with the car's electronics.

A virus if you like.

If might sound fanciful, but as the engine controls, brake controls, gearbox controls, navigation, phone etc all get linked on a common bus with the ability to talk to each other, and can start to talk to the outside world the need to protect the systems safely from interference increases.

So, as VAG, which risk would you take? The risk that some of the small% of customers that remap their cars may change brand, or that some evil foreign power (Peugeot?) or criminal element disconnects the brakes and nails the throttle on all of their cars, simultaneously, world-wide?

Do you feel lucky? Well, do you?

You've been reading too many Tom Clancy books

To do that every single car would have to be linked to at least a cellular data network for them to do it. Or maybe they just put a sleeper in the ECU company who puts in a little code in the software that causes that to happen at a set time on a set date etc etc.

Anyway back on topic.

There is absolutely no software/security system in the world that can not be "cracked" or got in to. It's just a case of finding the backdoor that all software has otherwise how would the systems engineers get in when there is a crash and the system locks the user out? There is always someone brighter and better on a computer

Nissan said that the GT-R ECU was un-crackable. Within 12 months it was cracked by a company in the US (I forget the name something like coretech). That car has even more security than VAG's latest attempt as the GT-R has an ECU within an ECU both of which have to be accessed as they both share the running of the car simultaneously.

It's all a case of Demand and money. Yes the GT-R is a niche car and those who own them have plenty of money to help fund the tuning research. VAG will have stuck that software in there knowing full well it is going to take serious tuners to get past and therefore stop the "we can give you 9000bhp and 1,000,000lb/ft for £14.99" tuners on eBay and dodgy back street garages.

Those that get around the protection reliably will quickly corner the market forcing other companies to do there own research. This will then in turn drive the associated cost down. Then VAG will come up with something else and the process will start again

[shark_90]

Bloody hell Carl, are you feeling ok?

[cheezemonkhai]

There is absolutely no software/security system in the world that can not be "cracked" or got in to. It's just a case of finding the backdoor that all software has otherwise how would the systems engineers get in when there is a crash and the system locks the user out? There is always someone brighter and better on a computer

While I agree in principle with your point, it's nothing to do with a backdoor for the programmer/systems engineer. Anyone who put one in should be instantly fired.

If an embedded system locks the user out, then it's most likely a faulty unit and will need replacing anyway.

When things crash you will usually go in on a serial console or in the case of an embedded system a JTAG interface (as in this instance).