Cold Start problems with a PD TDI 170

[Kilner]

That sounds about right!

Try clamping the fuel lines?

yes i have tryed to clamp the return line and so has the vw garage i think my fuel mayb contaminated or is geting contaminated by somthing (tandem pump or injector seal leak)funny enough my car started amazing this morning and it was only 2.3c outside the coldest it has been i normally get issues around the 9c-10c markbut i did have my fuel filter out and put fresh diesel in i also had teh fuel temp sensor out and cleaned that i also did another adjustment so now i need to wate untill tomorow to see if i have fixed the problemis any one neer barnsley ? that would be willing to let me have a look at ther car or could you take your fuel fillter out and shine a bright lite into the diesel and check for small black specks in the fuel also remove your fuel temp sensor and check for black oil on the sensor and also the black specks in the fuel that comes from teh return pipe thanks

[silver1011]

As I mentioned earlier my PD170 struggled to start from cold. It also suffered from diesel mixing with the engine oil. The turbo failed shortly after too. The dealer reseated the injectors and replaced the turbo and all has been well in the last 20,000 miles...

[Kilner]

i have found a diagram and to be honest the injectors and head are just a BAD design

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/287034_10152132155955162_797723732_o.jpg

[Bobbybiscuit]

I had my glo plugs replaced when I bought the car in June and still had starting problems. Then as the battery became more charged as i used the vehicle, the cranking speed increased and starting improved. With the colder weather ( we dont get very cold weather in the West Country just loads of rain) I am finding that first crank primes the engine and 2nd crank fires first time. Apart from that it fires first time during the day. ( I have mk1 2004 Octavia Elegance PD130 TDI). I have accepted that its par for the course.

After replacing glo plugs it seems the next port of call is the battery - the higher cranking battery the better.

[daztms85]

sorry for dragging up a old thread its just that i have not had my skoda pd/tdi 170 bhp vrs octavia(with 42k on the clock) very long as i bought in dec 2011 and have been suffering with the same problems with mine like that have been mentioned in the thread.

But my problems seemed to started when skoda changed the injectors and loom in august 2012 as they suffer from carbon build up and short circuit the injectors which makes them cut out when driving along so they was replaced under the recall it was ok to start of with and pulled really hard at first when they was done,but over a period of time the car has became harder and harder to start it takes three or four atempts to fire up with the key and is even worse in the cold weather and sometimes needs the throttle to start it, but when it fires into life it runs really really lumpy for a few minutes and goes when it has warmed up a bit but has a slight lost of power like its holding back on low rpm when driving along, there is no signs of smoke or any ecm/pcm lights on the dash and is still returning 530miles on a tank full of fuel which i run on the shell v-power diesel all the time.

have changed the fuel again this weekend the car seem a bit more responsive power wise bout not alot better and the car still has the starting issues have been on the phone today to skoda (carrs) in cornwall have been told to check the exhaust on start up to see if puffs out any black smoke when its trying to start, if does have been told its a glow plug fault as it can not heat up the fuel and throws it throught the exhaust, if it doesnt puff any smoke etc, it is another issue and that i should get it plugged into dignostic machine to see if has stored fault codes

but this has left me scratching my head a little just want to get it sorted driving crackers

any other surguestions would be great thanks

[Jane_i10]

This is just a mystery that will never be solved.

Although you say you only experienced the problems after the injector recall mine was happening before and after, it happened on my 1.9TDi 150, it happens on my partners 1.9TDi 130..the injectors were not the answer, just like alot of other things. Interesting thing how the two engines differ in the exact same conditions, other night mine was lumpy to start but my partners was 10 times worse, other times it will be the other way round.

Personally i think it still has something to do with 'winter diesel' the additives that are put into the fuel to stop it from freezing either A, separate, causing a lumpy start B, When it is sat in the fuel lines the consistency becomes thicker under 4 degree's

Its nothing specialised to the BMN engine, all PD's suffer from it.

[Anddenton]

Its nothing specialised to the BMN engine, all PD's suffer from it.

errr, my Scout doesn't, starts and runs smoothly instantly even at -6

[Jane_i10]

errr, my Scout doesn't, starts and runs smoothly instantly even at -6

Ok all the PD's ive come across struggle to start.

There's something defiantly in common with all these engines though, my Golf was a 52 plate and the Octy 07 so its a part that has been used again and again on the various VAG diesels over the years.

Personally i think VW know what it is but refuse to recall it has there would be literally hundreds of thousands of cars to recall.

[max69vk]

First thing to do is get the car on VCDS and scan it to check for any faults. Asking you to check for black smoke at startup on a car fitted with a DPF is a joke, it's the whole point of the DPF to catch that soot!

If nothing has come up after a scan & VCDS doesnt show any major injector malfunctions or inbalance there are a couple more things to check. If you are a fairly competant mechanic or know someone who is, you can check a few things.

Firstly, turn the ignition on & off 3 times (till the glow plug light goes out) & then start the car. If it then fires ok, replace the glowplugs. If still doesn't, proceed to the following (worth checking anyway)...

1) What condition is your battery in? Have it tested when starting to see how it 'drops'.

2) What condition is your fuel filter in? If it's black, change it.

3) Check your tank pump filter/pickup isnt blocked or dirty. If it is, clean it.

4) Check your injector clearance/lash, for a full guide CLICK HERE

Hope this helps.

[Kilner]

i have fixed my cold start problem on my pd170

it was the remap causing it

[xyster]

Ok, i've read this thread through a while ago as I am having the same problems with cold starting on my pd 170. I have had it to dealer (left overnight in very cold weather) and they reported "it started fine" which is utter rubbish. Nothing showing on diagnostics so they are clueless. Took it to a local VAG indie and within 30 seconds he noticed that my intake manifold flaps were broken (it also has had fumes smell in cab).

Now the reason he found this was that he saw the deposits of soot around the engine bay. This is the same soot deposits (I noticed this ages ago after having cambelt changed at dealer and showed them it thinking it was rubber from chafing belt) that have been there for 18 months and the dealer has never mentioned them despite them not being able to locate the fumes smell.

Anyway, I digress. The cold start issue. I got indie to change glow plugs (75k so worth a shot) but no different at all. Next they changed fuel filter. This made it better but not cured. If I leave car for 2 days on drive then it takes a good 15 seconds of turning over with no hint of starting, then another glow plug cycle and a further 10 seconds before it, still reluctantley, starts.

I am wondering if the injector seals are failing. It had them done around 18 months ago and has been ok till last few months.

What would the symptoms of injector seals failing??

After the fuel filter was changed it did improve 50% so maybe on the right lines. This must be a fairly common problem so I am not sure why the dealers are so useless at diagnosing the problem.

[JohnMcL7]

errr, my Scout doesn't, starts and runs smoothly instantly even at -6

Agreed, I haven't had this issue with any of the PD engines I've owned (1.9 90bhp, 1.9 150bhp and 2.0 170bhp) aside from the VRS struggling to start but that was a failing battery.

John

[silver1011]

The night and day difference on starting between my vRS and Scout was the main reason I was convinced there was / is something wrong with my vRS.

For those that have read this thread will know that I have had new injectors, had them removed and reseated, had new seals, removed and visually inspected all four glowplugs, swapped out the fuel filter, adjusted the timing etc. etc.

I had Skoda UK involved and Skoda Technical Support from the plant in the Czech Republic. The car was off the road with the dealer for almost 25 working days.

The end result? No one had a clue. Skoda admitted defeat.

The car still doesn't like starting, however it always does which is the important thing for me.

[silver1011]

Asking you to check for black smoke at startup on a car fitted with a DPF is a joke, it's the whole point of the DPF to catch that soot!

Unburnt fuel or oil can still pass through the DPF. It catches soot, not smoke.

My DPF equipped vRS smokes just prior to a DPF regen.

[max69vk]

True, but unburnt fuel or oil burns white or blue in the exhaust system. Over fuelling that burns in the cylinders creates black soot which gets caught in the DPF

On a separate note, I still can't believe they couldn't find the fault with you car!

[Nick P]

The problem with mine is still exactly the same a year on from when it started straight after the injector recall.

[JohnMcL7]

The night and day difference on starting between my vRS and Scout was the main reason I was convinced there was / is something wrong with my vRS.

For those that have read this thread will know that I have had new injectors, had them removed and reseated, had new seals, removed and visually inspected all four glowplugs, swapped out the fuel filter, adjusted the timing etc. etc.

I had Skoda UK involved and Skoda Technical Support from the plant in the Czech Republic. The car was off the road with the dealer for almost 25 working days.

The end result? No one had a clue. Skoda admitted defeat.

The car still doesn't like starting, however it always does which is the important thing for me.

Not just Skoda, no-one else with the VW group seems to know either which is the particularly worrying part. I think it was yourself that linked to a thread on an Audi forum where the person had bought an A3 with the PD170 engine then had the injectors replaced under the recall and had the seemingly common issues afterwards. I think his car had been back to the garage 14 times or similar with all manner of repairs carried out and by the end of the car was still no better than it was after the injectors had been replaced.

I can understand that there may be issues if the injectors are not replaced properly but I can't understand why that can't seem to be fixed afterwards. I'm still firmly sticking with my injectors unless they fail on me as there's just far too many horror stories with injector replacements and they're all very consistent - rough cold starts with smoke out the exhaust pipe and the DPF light coming on frequently when it had been fine before.

John

[Anddenton]

Unburnt fuel or oil can still pass through the DPF. It catches soot, not smoke.

My DPF equipped vRS smokes just prior to a DPF regen.

I take it your oil level no longer rises and you are happy the injectors are now correctly installed?

[silver1011]

Yep, just the cold starting issue remains.

[Kilner]

The problem with mine is still exactly the same a year on from when it started straight after the injector recall.

remap + smf

i kno

[xyster]

For anyone who has had this issue a while, does the lumpy starting go away as the ambient temp rises or stay all year round when engine cold?

[silver1011]

Yes, it's better during the summer months.

The colder it gets the worse / more obvious it becomes.

If the car is left stood for anything more than a few days its even more of an issue.

[Davidsr20]

Iv had my injectors fitted 14 months ago,iv had no starting issues or any issues really at all,I do get a regen every 1k or so but that's it,iv done 30k km(20k miles) since they were fitted!

I really think some peoples problems is bad workmanship. Mine were done in a large Audi/vw dealer with a very rep name.

I also know they have done lots of them with not one issue.

This seems to be an issue in the uk for some reason.

[Kilner]

this is were i ended up with the cold start

i have now remapped my car myself and the cold start is 90% beter than it was but i think ther is still an issue

[silver1011]

£700 for four injectors is actually quite cheap.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-VW-SIEMENS-2-0-16v-TDI-PD170-Injector-BMN-BMR-BNZ-PD-170-03G130073T-/140649242719