DSG tiptronic issues

[freedie]

Good luck with the dealer check, rockhopper. I should have stated before that the most common cause of false neutrals (where the transmission shifts into neutral by itself) is a faulty transmission temperature sensor... maybe worth suggesting that the dealer checks this first?

[rockhopper]

Good luck with the dealer check, rockhopper. I should have stated before that the most common cause of false neutrals (where the transmission shifts into neutral by itself) is a faulty transmission temperature sensor... maybe worth suggesting that the dealer checks this first?

Thanks. Elsie the Helipad is now with Allams for the week, whilst they investigate. They are also going to realign the flappy paddle steering wheel that is very slightly out, that Ben at Shark Performance fitted and also look at the cruise control, when going up inclines it seems to lose a couple of mph. My previous Octavia never did and neither did my BMW 5 series's either. Very annoying if you are sitting there at 30mph with cars behind and it slows down to 28mph. Never had that happen with cruise before.

[roguebrit]

Re the discussion on changing down using the DSG - I do as Rockhopper does, all the time, as I mentioned above. On approach to a roundabout, or whatever, lever to the left tap tap down - sometimes with a pause between, sometimes not - depending on how fast I am going, and what engine braking effect I need, then into the roundabout and, usually, back to the right to let the DSG take over for change-ups. Sometimes I'll leave the lever on the left to get a bit more oomph before a tap up, and then back to auto. Whatever - I have never had the 'no drive' issue, so guess there must be a fault occuring somewhere. Good luck with it!

[bilun777]

Thanks. Elsie the Helipad is now with Allams for the week, whilst they investigate. They are also going to realign the flappy paddle steering wheel that is very slightly out, that Ben at Shark Performance fitted and also look at the cruise control, when going up inclines it seems to lose a couple of mph. My previous Octavia never did and neither did my BMW 5 series's either. Very annoying if you are sitting there at 30mph with cars behind and it slows down to 28mph. Never had that happen with cruise before.

I use cruise control all the time, and it's one of the best I,ve ever owned.

However it does seem a bit "lazy" re-acquiring a set speed if it's very close to the speed.

Could using it as slow as 30mph cause your DSG box to hunt around which gear to use? :wonder:

[rockhopper]

I use cruise control all the time, and it's one of the best I,ve ever owned.

However it does seem a bit "lazy" re-acquiring a set speed if it's very close to the speed.

Could using it as slow as 30mph cause your DSG box to hunt around which gear to use? :wonder:

No hunting around on my DSG, just false neutrals, which don't occur in D or S.

30mph in 4th is fine and no problems there whatsoever.

It's not the re-aquiring a speed, but losing it when going up a slight (or steep gradient), speed will drop from 30 to 28mph. very annoying.

The cruise will work from 20mph up.....

[mdk1]

Any update yet?

[rockhopper]

No. Even though it did the same while Allams was test driving it, no faults recorded. Told to live with it basically, or take off the flappy paddle steering wheel and remap and they might look into it.

I'll think long and hard about that.......done........I'll live with it for the time being.

[mdk1]

Just wondering if there is something in the coding in the ecu for it to know that it didn't have a flappy paddle wheel and it's been "tampered" with. or is the ecu not that clever to know what spec the car was built with?

[rockhopper]

No. Just Skoda knowing that a flappy paddle isn't an option......

[roguebrit]

As a bit of a test, as I was driving home at 3 am last night - and had to come right through Milton Keynes which, as many will know, is 'fast frequent roundabout land' - I really made full use of the manual function to change down 1,2, or 3 gears, coming into roundabouts, and accelerate hard out of them, both in manual, before changing up, and by going into auto again - in both normal and sport. I tried my hardest, really, to see if the DSG would get confused in any way, through about 18 fast, empty, roundabouts and I am pleased to report that it behaved faultlessly.

As said, this is with floor change, and standard 140 diesel. But - it would seem to confirm that, if its working OK, the DSG takes this sort of thing in its stride.

[Clunkclick]

Errrr . . . Protective software ?

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/skoda/yeti-2009/?section=bad

Nick

[roguebrit]

Errrr . . . Protective software ?

http://www.honestjoh...09/?section=bad

Nick

That's interesting, Nick, and might fit Rockhopper's symptoms too I guess. Honest Johns comment on the link is:

With DSGs, protective software can delay the message from brake switch to ECU that brakes have been released, allowing car to enter a junction or roundabout on the fuel in the combustion chambers, then momentarily shut off mid-junction.

But if it's true, it's not something I have experienced in 10,000 miles in the Yeti, and I often brake quite hard coming into roundabouts. I never, ever, experienced this in two DSG Golfs, driving over 100,000 miles in them. So, frankly, I think Honest John is, well, lets just say mistaken, based on my own experience. Anyone?

[bahnstormer vrs]

That's interesting, Nick, and might fit Rockhopper's symptoms too I guess. Honest Johns comment on the link is:

With DSGs, protective software can delay the message from brake switch to ECU that brakes have been released, allowing car to enter a junction or roundabout on the fuel in the combustion chambers, then momentarily shut off mid-junction.

But if it's true, it's not something I have experienced in 10,000 miles in the Yeti, and I often brake quite hard coming into roundabouts. I never, ever, experienced this in two DSG Golfs, driving over 100,000 miles in them. So, frankly, I think Honest John is, well, lets just say mistaken, based on my own experience. Anyone?

I don't think this is Rockhopper's problem.

Honest John's description is, as I understand it, when the ECU cuts the power from the engine on the assumption that you have a 'panic' situation of accelerator and brake being applied at the same time (other than momentarily). Rockhopper's problem is getting a 'box full of neutrals' with no drive but the engine revving.

PS> IMHO Honest John has lost the plot theses days and frequently talks/writes a lot of balderdash. I happened to pick up last Saturday's Motoring section of the Daily Telegraph and found several of his answers that were confusing or ambiguous (IMHO).

[rockhopper]

My symptoms are just the clutch not engaging for gear 3. It might be that I am down shifting too fast. The DSG doesn't normally downshift very fast.

[ejstubbs]

With DSGs, protective software can delay the message from brake switch to ECU that brakes have been released, allowing car to enter a junction or roundabout on the fuel in the combustion chambers, then momentarily shut off mid-junction.

Rockhopper's symptoms don't seem to match that. He said: "the engine would just rev, with no go". That's pretty much the direct opposite of what you'd expect if the ECU had shut off fuel, isn't it?

TBH I'm not 100% sure what HJ means by "allowing car to enter a junction or roundabout on the fuel in the combustion chambers". Unless I've seriously misunderstood how 4-stroke engines work, any "fuel in the combustion chambers" gets burned at the next ignition stroke of the cycle. In a conventional four cylinder engine that means that the "fuel in the combustion chambers" would be gone within two revolutions of the crankshaft. At just above idle, which I assume you would be approaching a roundabout, the engine will be doing about 1,000rpm, so if the ECU had shut off fuel to the cylinders then you might expect the engine to continue provide drive "on the fuel in the combustion chambers" for approximately 1/10 of a second. I doubt any normal human being could detect that in the circumstances being described. Unless anyone can explain otherwise, I think that the "fuel in the combustion chambers" bit is a red herring (to put it politely).

I don't have a DSG but I did test drive a 1.2 DSG and, though it obviously wasn't an extensive or thorough test of the car's dynamic abilities, I can't say I noticed anything like what HJ describes. What I did notice was that the DSG seemed to have a tendency to change up too soon moving away from rest, and then change down again when I pressed the loud pedal harder to get more forward motion, making take-off a bit jerky at times. I note that the Wikipedia article mentions that downchanges are slower than upchanges, at about 600ms ie just over half a second. Could it be that what HJ has identified as the ECU cutting off is in fact a 600ms loss of drive while the box blips the throttle on a downchange, having held too high a gear on the over-run?

Either way, I'm not sure that this supposed issue has much bearing on Mike's problem. (Unless the throttle blip is somehow upsetting the remap, or vice versa?)

However, this is all barely-informed speculation on my part. Stay tuned for my explanation of how daylight saving time causes your toaster to burn your toast...

[rockhopper]

What I think HJ is referring to is that when on the brakes, power is cut to the engine. Just try and do a 'normal' fast start using a DSG and you will understand what I mean. In my BMW autos, I would have the car in sport, left foot on brake, right on the power, get revs up to 2500rpm or so and take foot off throttle. The car would then accelerate very fast (530d remapped). You just can't do this with a DSG. When your foot is on the brake you can barely get the revs over 1100/1200rpm.

HJ advocates left foot braking for auto use which will make this situation worse........

[Yeti_Man]

What I think HJ is referring to is that when on the brakes, power is cut to the engine. Just try and do a 'normal' fast start using a DSG and you will understand what I mean. In my BMW autos, I would have the car in sport, left foot on brake, right on the power, get revs up to 2500rpm or so and take foot off throttle. The car would then accelerate very fast (530d remapped). You just can't do this with a DSG. When your foot is on the brake you can barely get the revs over 1100/1200rpm.

How would that make you accelerate (unless im misunderstanding it!)? Surely you'd just sit there with the brake on? Ive been playing with DSG lately and I think its very impressive indeed. Less involving still though imo, than a manual. :( The one thing I was fearing was dleays in the power coming in at junctions etc but I never experienced that once.

Edited 28 March, 2011 by FocusZtec

[rockhopper]

How would that make you accelerate (unless im misunderstanding it!)? Surely you'd just sit there with the brake on? Ive been playing with DSG lately and I think its very impressive indeed. Less involving still though imo, than a manual. :( The one thing I was fearing was dleays in the power coming in at junctions etc but I never experienced that once.

In a DSG the easiest way to accelerate from rest is right foot on brake, take foot off brake, transfer to accelerator and press Car accelerates slowly initially then gathers speed quickly.

in an ordinary auto use left foot on brake, right foot on accelerator with plenty of revs. remove left foot. car accelerates very quickly (depending whether is is a 1.2l Nissan micra auto or a BMW 530d auto

[Yeti_Man]

In a DSG the easiest way to accelerate from rest is right foot on brake, take foot off brake, transfer to accelerator and press Car accelerates slowly initially then gathers speed quickly.

in an ordinary auto use left foot on brake, right foot on accelerator with plenty of revs. remove left foot. car accelerates very quickly (depending whether is is a 1.2l Nissan micra auto or a BMW 530d auto

Ah, that makes sense, previously you'd said to accelerate to take the foot off the throttle, think maybe then you just meant off the brake and keep the throttle buried. :yes:

[bahnstormer vrs]

in an ordinary auto use left foot on brake, right foot on accelerator with plenty of revs. remove left foot. car accelerates very quickly (depending whether is is a 1.2l Nissan micra auto or a BMW 530d auto

This method is usable in a DSG Yeti providing the 'left foot brake' is held only monetarily i.e. only for a second or two.

Any longer and the panic attack/ECU safety cut-out comes into play. :'(

[jrw]

What I think HJ is referring to is that when on the brakes, power is cut to the engine. Just try and do a 'normal' fast start using a DSG and you will understand what I mean. In my BMW autos, I would have the car in sport, left foot on brake, right on the power, get revs up to 2500rpm or so and take foot off throttle. The car would then accelerate very fast (530d remapped). You just can't do this with a DSG. When your foot is on the brake you can barely get the revs over 1100/1200rpm.

HJ advocates left foot braking for auto use which will make this situation worse........

You can do this in a DSG - Its called Launch Control.

DSG in Manual or S, ESP off, left foot on brake, right foot buried in accelerator, the revs will sit at 2.5k on the diesel and slightly higher in the petrol, release brake to 'launch'.

[900000]

You can do this in a DSG - Its called Launch Control.

DSG in Manual or S, ESP off, left foot on brake, right foot buried in accelerator, the revs will sit at 2.5k on the diesel and slightly higher in the petrol, release brake to 'launch'.

Maybe on a Golf GTI (and Octavia vRS?) but not on most other VAG products. Have you seen the Toyota recall about runaway cars not stopping??! VAG cars have had this safeguard for eons where the engine completely cuts out the moment you touch the brake and accelarator at the same time. Unless they willingly add a launch control as they do on the Golf GTI (and Octavia vRS?).

[jrw]

Maybe on a Golf GTI (and Octavia vRS?) but not on most other VAG products. Have you seen the Toyota recall about runaway cars not stopping??! VAG cars have had this safeguard for eons where the engine completely cuts out the moment you touch the brake and accelarator at the same time. Unless they willingly add a launch control as they do on the Golf GTI (and Octavia vRS?).

Presume it is on most DSG equipped cars to be honest - its not a VRS/GTI specific feature. The Engine doesn't cut the revs anyway if you brake and accelerate at the same time unless you are actually in motion (on mine anyway!) and probably just sit there trying to rev more until the gearbox or clutch exploded. The only reason why it wont rev past the 1.5k or whatever mark is because the clutch is engaged. The launch control method doesn't engage the clutch fully until the brake is released.

[900000]

Presume it is on most DSG equipped cars to be honest - its not a VRS/GTI specific feature. The Engine doesn't cut the revs anyway if you brake and accelerate at the same time unless you are actually in motion (on mine anyway!) and probably just sit there trying to rev more until the gearbox or clutch exploded. The only reason why it wont rev past the 1.5k or whatever mark is because the clutch is engaged. The launch control method doesn't engage the clutch fully until the brake is released.

Ah ok..... If you look at the GTI videos though on YouTube they do the sequence as you suggest and they sure rev them past 1200rpm as well! Hence me saying they have a proper Launch Control. I'll have to try this on my Yeti and see what happens, but I think I know nothing will happen in terms of better 0-60 times as it is not Launch Control.

[jrw]

Ah ok..... If you look at the GTI videos though on YouTube they do the sequence as you suggest and they sure rev them past 1200rpm as well! Hence me saying they have a proper Launch Control. I'll have to try this on my Yeti and see what happens, but I think I know nothing will happen in terms of better 0-60 times as it is not Launch Control.

You will know if it works because the box wont make an awful groaning noise and be trying to pull away. I think the engine needs to be fully warm too.