This post not meant for manual fans.

I've had three DSG cars and still have two,

I've run...

TDI 6 Speed Wet Clutch DSG

TDi 7 Speed Dry Clutch DSG

TSi 7 Speed Dry Clutch DSG.

Now I've sung praises of DSG high and low on other forums and on here. The smooth crisp changes and ease of use for me outway the little draw backs. We all know they can be a little jerky at times when maneuvering at slow speed especially on inclines and you can catch them out when coming on power at a roundabout or similar.

I think you soon learn to drive around the little issues but there's no doubt the little issues do exist.

So I have driven and owned 3,4,5 and 6 speed conventional auto's and the DSG boxes are quicker, crisper and of course offer better performance and better economy. And we all know that some DSG models match or beat the manual cars performance and economy.

So the reason for this post.......

I've driven big Jags and Audi's using the ZF 8 speed conventional Auto's and of course they are excellent but have big beefy engines to drive them so never really seen them as a DSG alternative.

ZF do offer smaller versions of the 8 speeder and recently BMW have been fitting them into smaller engined 3 and 1 series. (2.0 diesel and 1.6 Petrol) and recently I've driven a few examples.

When pressing on they are 95% as good as a DSG, changes are fast and smooth and it can downshift multiple gears in one down change, maximum is 8th to 2nd. So 95% as good as a DSG? Yes when pressing on but at slow speed they are much better than the DSG, silky smooth and no hesitation.

The 8 speeder can lockup in 3rd gear so once out of 1st and 2nd you have direct drive most of the time and non of the usual auto slurryness. And of course BMW quote faster performance figures and better economy of many 8 speed auto models over their 6 speed manual versions.

ZF say the box is cheaper and lighter than equivalent torque rated double clutch boxes and BMW have dropped their DCT from some models this year.

The stop/start system is great on this box too, stop at the lights with foot on the brake, engine stops. As you lift your foot off the brake the engine starts before you have even touched the throttle.

So yes I think this box is better than my DSG's, 95% as good when flat out but with none of the draw backs.

But there is one big problem, the 8 speed ZF can only be fitted to cars with longitudinal engines and rear or all wheel drive.

So that rules out all Skoda's and 80% of cars on sale in the UK.

But here's the thing, ZF are launching a compact 9 speed auto for transverse engined cars and say again it will offer the driving characteristics and energy saving features of the 8 speed box but be cheaper and lighter than equivalent dual clutch.

Some manufacturers have already signed up, it will be an interesting box that's for sure.

Here's the 8 speeder

Gear change speed

Cheers

Lee

The new 9 speeder for transverse engines.

So has DSG had it's day?

Edited 20 September, 201213 yr by logiclee

The 6 speed certainly but more 7 and 8 speed, and maybe 9 speed DSG should be round the corner.

The dry clutch box is suppose to be good for 400,000 km and has no maintainance costs. Not sure this ZF box does if requires expensive services every 60K Km or so?

Cylinder shut off and lighter cars are going to make 10% or so improvements each to fuel consumptions.

Would like to be doing only 1800 revs at 70 mph as I suspect that would mean an improvement of 1 or 2 mpg.

Which transverse engine cars might get the box? Honda, Nissan and Toyota need a good auto box as they are years behind last I looked.

My vRS is currently at home whilst I'm doing abit of a road-trip around the UK in a brand-spanking new BMW 520d M-sport touring. It's fitted with the 8 speed Auto box and much as it pains me to say I have to admit that's its a far superior setup than the dsg-7 on the vRS. I was blown away by how good the vRS box is but this is just simply on a whole new level! Soooo silky smooth and just as 'sporty' as the dsg when taking manual control. Low speed maneuvers much easier too. The 520d is so nice I might have to cross over to the dark side and get a BMW for my next car!

7,8,9 Speeder...where will it all end. The Daf 66 Variomatic springs to mind.

My vRS is currently at home whilst I'm doing abit of a road-trip around the UK in a brand-spanking new BMW 520d M-sport touring. It's fitted with the 8 speed Auto box and much as it pains me to say I have to admit that's its a far superior setup than the dsg-7 on the vRS. I was blown away by how good the vRS box is but this is just simply on a whole new level! Soooo silky smooth and just as 'sporty' as the dsg when taking manual control. Low speed maneuvers much easier too. The 520d is so nice I might have to cross over to the dark side and get a BMW for my next car!

I had a new 520D for 9 months when somebody left our company, it was a really nice car with plenty of poke but I found the autobox to be lazy, no problem on kick down or acceleration but on A or B roads it would always be in too high a gear when coming out of corners, this was remedied by using the manual option on the box.

I prefer the DSG in Fabia, but I am sure technology will move on and DSG will be superseded

As a manual fan who snuck in, I think the only reason the DSG's beat the manuals by a fraction in some fuel economy tests, is because the DSG shift schedule has been designed around that exact test.

A DSG gearbox has additional pumps and actuators to run that a manual gearbox doesn't and this makes them inherently less efficient. It's just an indication of how much work has been put into them to edge out manuals in some of the standard test schedules.

The DSG box has a lot less power zapping torque converters like the ZF auto and that is why it works so well with the small transverse engine set up.

Perfomrance manufacturers (Ferrari et al) are switching to single clutch automated manuals - they give DSG style flexibility, but save weight and space. It escapes me right now, but someone launching a new, small, lightweight sports car went the same way - single clutch automated manual.

General wisdom seems to be that full manual gearboxes are going to disappear in 10 years or so.

There is a new type of gearbox being developed that I read about recently, some sort of planetary type arrangement, fewer moving parts, much smaller, much more efficient. Can't remember much more (that's happening too often, maybe I need my oil changed...) but I'll have a root around where I would have seen it.

I've only driven a few DSGs, can't even remember which. They did the job, it wasn't a long enough drive to get a true feel for living with it.

Torque converters only sap power when they are unlocked. With enough gears behind them they are locked up the vast majority of the time.

Personally I find 4 gears and under in autos to be horrible, 6 gears is the point where they start becoming livable but I still don't want to own one. For predictability I rated the 6 speed auto in the Mondeo above the wet clutch 6sp DSG in the Superb. I've only driven 8sp autos in a BMW and it did everything you can expect an auto to do and did it well.

But it still makes the drive a bit boring IMO.

The 520d is so nice I might have to cross over to the dark side and get a BMW for my next car!

Until someone comes with a spare key! :think:

On the subject of Ferrari I was lucky enough to track drive a 458 a few weeks back with an instructor.Every upshift made a loud bang with an accompanying jerk - horrible.I asked the instructor (a mk1 fabia vrs driver no less) if I would have to lift off in my Fabia 2 Vrs to change gear when I got it and he werent sure (still drove Monte Carlo at the time)

And what do you know? I dont.....much prefer the dsg - ,just want some 458 like paddles now to fit the fabia!

Even with a locked torque converter there is more "churnage" loss in an auto box because of the higher oil volume, oil pump and number of meshing points and bearings.

With a diesel engine giving high torque at low crank speeds, the unlocked losses of a conventional auto box are very high. Unfortunately, this does not show in the test results as the test cycle has been rigged to avoid what we all spend a lot of time doing - inching around in traffic.

The DSG as a principle is probably the way to go as it has most of the simplicity of a manual box as far as the running train is concerned. Unfortunately as always, the devil is in the detail.

When VAG complete some proper development work and testing, and stop using the public as a test bed we may see some useful transmissions. Until then, my cheque book is closed.

VAG have the most apalling record of non-admittance and zero retro-rectification of their c o c k ups:

2.0 PD engine

Teves Mk 60 brake controller

Passat/A4/Superb water ingress

The list goes on.

rotodiesel.

Intersting thread, loved the vids (check the 5.5l Bi-Turbo AMG in the following the run of the gearbox vid).

Personally I think DSG boxes are the future as less complicated, ligher, with better performance (F1 uses DSG like sequential box to simplify things -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v5TxSiXdLk

).

Then I found that one - big smile on my face

Edited 21 September, 201213 yr by Jabozuma

DSG, The best gearbox?

Yep

There is mention of the Daf 66, i had one & a Volvo 343 CVT, great cars in the snow if you had them working OK,

& they could do exactly what they were built to do if maintained & adjusted properly.

There are many good CVT boxes now & there will be more being used in Bigger diesels in the next few years.

It is worth trying to get a drive in the New Subaru XV, or the faster Nissan Juke CVT

the Multidrive (CVT) in an iQ makes the most of the 999cc engine..

(any Subaru Dealer should let your get out in an XV, not exactly flying off the Display stands.)

george

All CVTs made so far have durability problems in high torque applications. You can't reasonably expect a flexible drive member, usually a segmented steel belt, to grip circumfrentially (in lubricant) to provide drive and yet be free to move axially to accomodate ratio changes.

A nonesense - I suspect even VAG know this.

rotodiesel.

Things are moving on.

Bosch have available components and designs for applications with torque from 100 Nm to over 400 Nm.

That has not been done to provide something un-reliable.

It is for a compact, light & reliable system without over complications. & Cheapness i would imagine.

To go with Euro 6 or 7 engines and the requirement for low emissions, & to suit more hybrid vehicles.

george

CVT with paddle shift?!?

My problem with CVTs is that engine revs have nothing to do with how much you are depressing the accelerator pedal :(. Otherwise a great idea!

Paddle Shift on the Subaru CVT is quite nice.

It's worth noting that trucks and buses are all going the route of automated manual gearbox with computer controlled single clutch. The functional differences between these and a planetary gearbox with a torque converter and aggressive lockup schedule become quite slight.

Rotodiesel, I'm not seeing a huge difference in parasitics and overall efficiency between a well controlled 6 sp auto and the wet 6sp dsg box. When, of course, the auto has an aggressive lockup schedule and doesn't spend a lot of time just stirring oil.

I had a new 520D for 9 months when somebody left our company, it was a really nice car with plenty of poke but I found the autobox to be lazy, no problem on kick down or acceleration but on A or B roads it would always be in too high a gear when coming out of corners, this was remedied by using the manual option on the box.

I prefer the DSG in Fabia, but I am sure technology will move on and DSG will be superseded

How long ago? Are you sure it was the new 8 speed ZF box? The box you describe sounds like the old BMW 6 speeder.

Cheers

Lee

The car I had was the new 520D on a "60" reg with the latest body style. Just for interest it is metallic brown with cream leather.

5 SERIES DIESEL SALOON 520d SE 4dr Step Auto is what comes up when searched for it also had efficiency dynamics, the car is now a pool car at our factory.

Personally I think DSG boxes are the future as less complicated, ligher, with better performance

Actually you will find that DSG boxes are more complex and in many cases heavier than conventional Auto's

My DSG Passat has the 6 speed DSG rated at 350NM and is 93kg

Our Fabia TSi has the 7 speed DSG rated at 250NM and is 70kg

The ZF 8 Speed box rated at 750NM is just 89kg

The ZF 8 Speed box rated at 300NM is just 70kg

F1 and other motorsport sequential boxes are totally different to DSG, they only need one geartrain, they use dog clutch arrangement rather than synchromesh and this means you do not need to use the clutch again once moving. For a road car they are far too violent and unrefined.

Cheers

Lee

Even with a locked torque converter there is more "churnage" loss in an auto box because of the higher oil volume, oil pump and number of meshing points and bearings.

With a diesel engine giving high torque at low crank speeds, the unlocked losses of a conventional auto box are very high. Unfortunately, this does not show in the test results as the test cycle has been rigged to avoid what we all spend a lot of time doing - inching around in traffic.

I can't follow your logic,

Urban Cycle

The urban test cycle is carried out in a laboratory at an ambient temperature of 20^oC to 30^oC on a rolling road from a cold start, i.e. the engine has not run for several hours. The cycle consists of a series of accelerations, steady speeds, decelerating and idling. Maximum speed is 31mph (50km/h), average speed 12mph (19km/h) and the distance covered is 2.5 miles (4km)

If you are only averaging 12mph and a maximum of only 31mph over 2.5 miles, and with a cold gearbox the torque converter isn't going to be locked up.

Older boxes would only lock up in the top two gears, the 8 speeder will lock up in 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th

Fortunately for me I commute 60 miles a day out of rush hour on motorways and A roads. The technology that cheats the economy tests for me is STOP/START because during the periods at idle the engine is turned off. Stop Start activates two or three times on my commute and then only if the lights are are red. lol.

Cheers

Lee

Edited 23 September, 201213 yr by logiclee