Vrs vs 2 Civic Type R's

[Richf]

Think the quickest fwd car in the uk is a ctr so a little respect is due

[vRSy]

In an off the mark sprint it was the quickest to 0-60(although im pretty sure the new Meganne and Astra have well and truly trumped it), but when compared with the other hot hatches in a 0-100 and particularly in gear accelerations it was one of the slowest.

But they are seriously not as quick as some people think they are. Pretty much all the other hot hatches ie octy vRS, Golf GTI, Focus ST, Astra VXR, Meganne RS and many others all have it well and truly covered in every other area of engine performance.

Consider they 1/4 mile, in particular the terminal speed, as this is what really demonstrates a cars actual performance, because even with a poor launch the terminals will still be good.

Typically they are between 14.5-15.5 second 1/4 mile with terminals between 94-96mph.

Standard Fabias vRS's have that covered easily, stage 1 Fabias will absolutely monster it, especially on the terminals, and thats considering that the fabia is similar in weight and once mapped has the same peak power.

And of course if theres any in gear accelerations involved, the fabia has the torque advantage so id imagine it would hold its own there as well.

[vRSy]

Just seen the thread on civinfo.com lol.

at mstafford1986. Get your car mapped once you get it, because stock fabias are sloooowwwwww lol

[Kie]

Theres always one bell-end in every forum and in this case it comes in the form of ajs-vrs best the typical bell-end quote's as follows:

"What do i know, i own a 457BHP supercharged S2000 which i have raced, installed and mapped myself - the fabia is a second more sensible car for me, but less of this willy waving." (Whats that got to do with you knowing nothing about type R's? which you said you dont give a **** about yet felt the need to quote... "Owned various vtecs for the last 8 years." at the bottom of the page like some sort of medal you own which turned out to be usless lmao!!

also i was fascinated to see yet more bull**** fall out of your mouth on your second closing quote "Ultimately power accelerates a car not engine torque" well no your wrong again BHP is top end peak power output of an engine torque is how quick you get it up there... you can hav a 500bhp engine but if somone has more tourque then you then they will accelerate to that peak power output quicker.. hense the saying (Torque is how fast you get to the wall BHP is how far you push it back) but less about tourque cuz thats alls your full of is oh no thats Talk (spelt different) i sugest maybe stop posting quotes or maybe learn abit first els your just going to continue to make yourself look that little bit more silly

Edited 3 October, 2012 by Kie

[Kie]

Not just from me but on behalf of our skoda team here

[Sonner]

absolutely love it, well said Kie

[Jabozuma]

:strong: Flame War! Bring it on!

S00n enough we will learn about FWD torque oversteer!

All that matters in the acceleration business is the "area below the torque curve" as one fo the famous US dragster engine tuners said. The bigger the area the better the acceleration. I wonder how much more powerfull an exactly the same Fabia with manual box would have to be to keep up with DSG box version?

Edited 3 October, 2012 by Jabozuma

[Kie]

:strong: Flame War! Bring it on!

S00n enough we will learn about FWD torque oversteer!

Or Torque Steer for short... (Focus RS constant problem)

Next Lesson Torque Vectoring

Edited 3 October, 2012 by Kie

[vRSy]

:strong: Flame War! Bring it on!

S00n enough we will learn about FWD torque oversteer!

My car has some pretty strong torque steer. Nail it off the line and you have to fight the steering wheel to keep it straight

[Jabozuma]

Or Torque Steer for short... (Focus RS constant problem)

Next Lesson Torque Vectoring

The whole point was I was being ironic as ther is no such thing as torque oversteer, only understeer

(you turn car turns but when you boot it at the same time it will not tur as much as the rubber will use bigger part of its traction for transfering the torque to the road than maintianing lateral grip)

torque vectoring - not really familiar with that one abut keen to learn!

EDIT: I was thinking driving techniques but this a diff tech

Edited 3 October, 2012 by Jabozuma

[Jabozuma]

My car has some pretty strong torque steer. Nail it off the line and you have to fight the steering wheel to keep it straight

I maight be wrong but it sounds like shot diff ? Unless you run over a fat badger just beforehand?

[vRSy]

your wrong lol. If it was the diff it would happen all the time irrelevant of speeds.

its definitely torque steer, there even mild torque steer on std vRS's. up the power/torque and it gets worse. Guess it highlights a poor chassis in comparison to other cars.

Ive driven Polos, Ibizas and other fabias that all do the same

[Jabozuma]

OK, I assumed that you are getting off the line where the line has the same amount of grip - hence the badger. Torque steer only happens when there is a differential between grip levels available between two wheels. Other reason is tyre side wall deformation difference between two front tyres. If all is equal your dif is fubared.

[vRSy]

OK, I assumed that you are getting off the line where the line has the same amount of grip - hence the badger. Torque steer only happens when there is a differential between grip levels available between two wheels. Other reason is tyre side wall deformation difference between two front tyres. If all is equal your dif is fubared.

I see you have been reading wikipedia. You'll also see causes such as driveshafts, engine mounts and the general design.

many cars torque steer. Take the older Astra VXR. That was bad for it, as was the mk1 meganne. Most manufacturers have changed designs of the front chassis geometry and setup to fix this, ie Ford REVo knuckle, and the renault equivalent, although they have the diff which will of course make it worse.

The Fabia/polo/Ibiza all do it, unless in some stroke of absolute conicidence the 5 or 6 other fabias/ibizas and polos i have driven all just happened to be the same!!

Mine has just got worse since the power has gone up. Its only when your brutal off the line though tbh, its rarely noticeable otherwise. Its not anything i'm worried about tbh.

The diff will be getting upgraded at some point anyway

[Jabozuma]

Nah, look at the vid, this is where sidewall deformation is the most visible in terms of torque steer.

In all fairness you never have exactly the same amount of grip on both wheels hence torque steer. As can be seen from the vid the more power the more torque steer, both FWD and RWD cars. If you are getting torque steer your are wating time and power, feather the throttle in slower and you will get much quicker launches and the tyres will last longer.

[vRSy]

I hear what you are saying, but the problem there is running the amount of power/torque i have with the stock throttle mapping.

Stock throttle map opens the throttle body 100% with the pedal only 3/4 depressed. Its far from a 1:1 input/poutput ratio which makes feathering the throttle nails.

my Jabbasport remap had linear throttle mapping which mad it SO much easier to modulate. The APR map runs the stock throttle map which at the hiked power level makes it even harder to modulate.

Even a Le Mans racing driver and a rally driver at Silverstone last month commented to APR after driving my car that the throttle mapping needs changing to a linear setup big style. The good news is, APR are making the changes to the map for me.

[Jabozuma]

Good to hear your car is progressing! I hope you sorted your misfiring problems etc - thread hijack alert-

I still would love to know what would be the power difference needed to compensate for 8ms gear change of DSG ...

[vRSy]

no idea, but back on topic

the 2.0VTEC is over rated.....

[Kie]

The whole point was I was being ironic as ther is no such thing as torque oversteer, only understeer

(you turn car turns but when you boot it at the same time it will not tur as much as the rubber will use bigger part of its traction for transfering the torque to the road than maintianing lateral grip)

torque vectoring - not really familiar with that one abut keen to learn!

EDIT: I was thinking driving techniques but this a diff tech

Correct: Torque Vectoring is supposed to eliminate torque steer some have front wheel torque vectoring others have rear wheel torque vectoring but there is only one car that i know of that has 4 wheel torque vectoring an incredible acomplishment! 10points to whoever gueses which car this is???

[Kie]

Good to hear your car is progressing! I hope you sorted your misfiring problems etc - thread hijack alert-

I still would love to know what would be the power difference needed to compensate for 8ms gear change of DSG ...

Doesnt have to be power a 200bhp per tonne car would do it

Edited 3 October, 2012 by Kie

[Jabozuma]

Correct: Torque Vectoring is supposed to eliminate torque steer some have front wheel torque vectoring others have rear wheel torque vectoring but there is only one car that i know of that has 4 wheel torque vectoring an incredible acomplishment! 10points to whoever gueses which car this is???

Audi

[Kie]

Audi

Nope

[Jabozuma]

Doesnt have to be power a 200bhp per tonne car would do it

I was thinking about having two identical cars next to each other on a drag strip. one with DSG one with manual. How much the manual's engine would have to be tuned up to match DSG's performance? In bhp if poss.

I get your bhp/tonne rating but the above way is easier for me to have a straight comparison to get my head around

[Jabozuma]

Nope

It is according to that

http://www.audi.com/com/brand/en/experience/design___technology/quattro_/technology/quattro_with_torque_vectoring.html

[vRSy]

The best way or working out the DSG is by looking at the Golf GTI Manual v DSG times. All the DSG cars are always much quicker.