Yes,

Ive seen a similar one advertised by an engineering company for about £25 notes.

That one i was using is about £160 (not mine borrowed from work)

They can be had on ebay for like a tenner!

I must invest too! They are super handy

Just been reading about widened rear tracks and effects on handling

As i have 12mm spacers on front (24mm overall)

And 15mm spacers on rear (30mm overall)

I have a wider rear track by 6mm over stock. This will also effect handling....

In what way though with a 19mm farb and 28mm rear? Better or worse?

I know the op has coilovers, i have read his posts before..doesn't change the fact a 28mm rear arb with a stock front vrs arb is not the best match for the VRS, it will just encourage oversteer...fact! (Irrespective of suspension setup or camber or caster setup).

You seem to be disagreeing with this, so are you suggesting its a good idea to run a 28mm rear bar with a 19mm front stock bar?

My suggestions (as other posters like bowders and demoufo are based on actual practical application) in that we have run numerous supsension setups (inc caster and camber adjustment) with stock and uprated suspension, so do have some collective hands on experience. Again..whats your practical experience of fitting stock and uprated vag/aftermarket anti roll bars to the VRS or the VAG platform in general as you seem to post a lot of technical information without any actual evidence of your knowledge or ability? I

Forgive us for thinking you might just be copy and pasting from the internet..as you don't have any other posts on here to backup your standing as an enthusiast so to speak...we on the other hand do.

I think they call it trolling don't they?

You are completely missing the point I'm attempting to demonstrate, I've already said I don't have first hand experience of VRS set ups.

I'm simply making the observation that each vehicle is different and that you shouldn't confidently recommend parts unless you have tried those parts on exactly the same setup.

Internet forums are full of well meaning enthusiasts who sometimes fall into believing half truths and forum myth. I'm not suggesting your advice wont work, simply that you state it as if you can guarantee it's the ideal set-up for the OP, I'm simply trying to warn anyone reading this that you can't bolt any part to any set-up and get the same results.

As for trolling, have I typed anything that isn't helpful or factually correct?

Cutting and pasting, LOL, I am a vehicle engineer with nearly 30 years experience with manufacturers and race teams.

Good Idea buddy

General typical rule on these cars to get good balance is:

a. FARB = 19mm RARB = 22mm, (like Whiteline)

b. FARB = 21mm RARB = 24mm (like Whiteline) 25mm (like Neuspeed)

c. FARB = 23mm RARB = 28mm, like Neuspeed

If keeping car std suspension then a 22mm RARB Whiteline offers a very good tune up to handing

If upgrading car to coillovers may want to upgrade to option b.

If going with coilovers and replacing suspension bushes b and c would be good.

If going full hog like replacing for TT / R32 / LCR cast wishbones and Hubs for something like spirited driving or the occasional track day then option c.

I went one step further and put castor bushes in my TT cast wishbones and added a S3 / R32 steering rack that give less turns lock to lock.

The depends of what you want to get from your car and was a journey of change and combinations and conditions for me.

Many thanks,

That info is really useful, its interesting to see how the vrs has gained a library of very good mods done by enthusiasts like yourself over the years.

NB: Ive got almost all the Superpro bushes for the car to fit (ie rear beam, front /rear lower arm, steering rack, front dog bone, the rear dogbone bush is a polyflex one.

You are completely missing the point I'm attempting to demonstrate, I've already said I don't have first hand experience of VRS set ups.

I'm simply making the observation that each vehicle is different and that you shouldn't confidently recommend parts unless you have tried those parts on exactly the same setup.

Internet forums are full of well meaning enthusiasts who sometimes fall into believing half truths and forum myth. I'm not suggesting your advice wont work, simply that you state it as if you can guarantee it's the ideal set-up for the OP, I'm simply trying to warn anyone reading this that you can't bolt any part to any set-up and get the same results.

As for trolling, have I typed anything that isn't helpful or factually correct?

Cutting and pasting, LOL, I am a vehicle engineer with nearly 30 years experience with manufacturers and race teams.

Oh yes thats right, i remember....you said you have no experience with these cars!

Your point....you made it already...now move on, your sanctimonious crusade to advise us that we shouldnt be advising other people....how fitting..

ADDING A THICKER REAR ARB WILL INCREASE THE CHANCE OF LIFT OFF/SNAP OVERSTEER, that is a guarantee, i'm not guaranteeing anything other than saying he will upset the handling balance without uprating the front too.

You are right about one thing...well meaning enthusiasts coming along and giving 'well meaning' advice that doesnt really help :wonder:

Don't like my advice...read bowders post below...same info...

Which is pretty much what everybody else was saying. So quite why he felt he had a point to make in the first place I'm really not sure. I guess it didn't matter to him that some of the guys here (yourself not excluded) buy and sell more of these cars (and other MkIV Golf variations) in various modded states in a year than some of us own in a lifetime.

Which is pretty much what everybody else was saying. So quite why he felt he had a point to make in the first place I'm really not sure. I guess it didn't matter to him that some of the guys here (yourself not excluded) buy and sell more of these cars (and other MkIV Golf variations) in various modded states in a year than some of us own in a lifetime.

I know, i think he felt he had to prove his technical knowledge as a new member, shame he just comes across as a know-it-all as he can't really offer any advice or experience in relation to our cars or to what the op was requesting..great entry to the forum :wonder:

The fact that we are all saying the same thing (as we have done it) means nothing apparently, if that was the case none of us should be modding our cars, or be giving experience that we have gained to other members.

A better question for the race engineer in this thread would be, why are you increasing the chance of lift off oversteer in a road car and making the car more snappy?

Lol at this Thread

join in, you know you want to.....your input is welcome, as you have experience in what we are talking about too!!!

Luca what would I know ;-) lol

you love baiting, you know you do;>

The fact that the OP already has coilovers makes a generic suggestion dubious from the outset.

If the OP has the coilovers at a reasonable ride height he's already reduced the body roll with the increased spring rates. Also if he's added a certain degree of rake to the car then this will influence the roll couple distribution.

If he's lowered the car massively, has the camber been corrected to suit, what is the dynamic camber arc at his given ride height.

Any of these factors means that offering a generic suggestion may not work with his setup.

I understand that you are offering your experience to be helpful but if you don't give more detail or qualify your answer then any forum reader runs the risk of buying and fitting an inappropriate part.

Not wishing to jump in the middle of this, but whilst the theory that you have made reference to is sound, there are certain things that come into the caculation with race car engineering that are within the scope of the setup that cannot be regarded as a constant on a road car, namely weight carried in the car.

A race car spends most of its time at a "fighting weight", which can be calculated and adjusted for roll centre and weight transfer during the event at hand. A road car on the other hand spends large amounts of it's time in different circumstances - i.e. trip to work solo weight of driver and kerb weight of vehicle. However, the same day, it could be fully loaded with passengers and luggage, all of which throw a bit of a spanner in the works of weight transfer calculations for roll etc.

I agree as has been said, that increasing the diameter of the rear roll bar on a standard setup is almost guaranteed to produce lift of oversteer, especially on a low grip surface. But like all things, the cars we drive are a compromise between function and the best possible performance, and as such there is a vast hands on database of users in this area on here - oet, bowders, etc,

It is very difficult applying race car theory to a road car as so many things change on a family hot hatch on a regular basis to make one setting meaningfull for general use.

Your point....you made it already...now move on, your sanctimonious crusade to advise us that we shouldnt be advising other people....how fitting..

Sorry, just thought it was worth pointing out to anyone reading statements like this...

dude, trust us you asked...don't go to the effort of fitting a vrs front arb, change it and get an r32 one, do you want to do the job twice? do it right to start with!!!

...may not be applicable to every VRS on the road.

Which is pretty much what everybody else was saying. So quite why he felt he had a point to make in the first place I'm really not sure. I guess it didn't matter to him that some of the guys here (yourself not excluded) buy and sell more of these cars (and other MkIV Golf variations) in various modded states in a year than some of us own in a lifetime.

I'm not sure whether people should trust your advice as you stated with complete conviction that a sway bar is different to an ARB, which is just complete rubbish.

I know, i think he felt he had to prove his technical knowledge as a new member, shame he just comes across as a know-it-all as he can't really offer any advice or experience in relation to our cars or to what the op was requesting..great entry to the forum :wonder:

The fact that we are all saying the same thing (as we have done it) means nothing apparently, if that was the case none of us should be modding our cars, or be giving experience that we have gained to other members.

A better question for the race engineer in this thread would be, why are you increasing the chance of lift off oversteer in a road car and making the car more snappy?

Maybe you could explain why I would feel the need to prove myself to a group of anonymous people I've never met?

I think you'll find the definition of a know-it-all is someone who claims to know everything, maybe you could point out exactly where I demonstrated this?

You can try and twist what I said as much as you like, at no point did I say you were wrong, or doubt your experience with the VRS, I simply thought it was worth pointing out to anyone reading this thread that your blanket recommendation may not suit everyone's car.

Never let it be said I'm not unhelpful, even if I am treated rudely.

Lift off over-steer occurs because under deceleration weight transfers from the rear to the front, lowering the coefficient of friction at the rear tyre contact patches (tyres not pushed into the tarmac so much). In the straight ahead position this shouldn't be noticeable but when combined with a steering input a yaw angle is induced in the car. This causes the car to pivot diagonally between the stiffest outside wheel and the softest inside wheel (due to the relative softness of the outside wheel on the softer axle).

As you increase the difference in stiffness between the front and rear axles this effective is increasingly exaggerated. Fitting a stiffer ARB to the rear of a car will increase the roll stiffness on the back of the car, making the amount the inside rear tyre 'unloads' during sudden deceleration through a corner higher. The same effect can be created by anything that increases roll stiffness, a change in spring rates on one axle or dampers with a harsher valving.

It is very difficult applying race car theory to a road car as so many things change on a family hot hatch on a regular basis to make one setting meaningfull for general use.

If this comment is aimed at me I made no reference to motor racing or corner weights, I simply stated that because of the way suspension components interact you cannot make blanket recommendations applicable to every car.

I am not 'right in a sense', I am just right.

That comes across as someone pretty sure of themselves. (I.e. a know it all)

I think at this point everyone does know what you were trying to say, and honestly yeah, it makes sense... but it was the way you said things in your first few posts on the site. To come on so harsh towards the people who make this site work is never going to win you any favours.

Reading off a screen can make a statement come across a way it was never intended to.

hopefully that was the case and honestly if you do stick around I'm sure your knowledge will come in really useful to people wanting help with the set up of a track car or whatever.

Edited 11 January, 201313 yr by michael1

I'm not sure whether people should trust your advice as you stated with complete conviction that a sway bar is different to an ARB, which is just complete rubbish.

I DID NOT state anything of a sort. I said that anti-roll bar in this case "is a bit of a misnomer". Which it is. These aftermarket bars are designed to do the job I said they are primarily, NOT control body-roll. A somewhat reduction in the body-roll is a secondary effect of what they do BECAUSE of the reduced grip to the rear.

Perhaps you should read again...

Feet getting wet yet?

I am not 'right in a sense', I am just right.

That comes across as someone pretty sure of themselves.

Yes, that's because in that instance I was factually correct, taking that comment out of context is a very poor attempt to make me look arrogant.

I would just like to say i have the biggest willy of all

I DID NOT state anything of a sort. I said that anti-roll bar in this case "is a bit of a misnomer". Which it is. These aftermarket bars are designed to do the job I said they are primarily, NOT control body-roll. A somewhat reduction in the body-roll is a secondary effect of what they do BECAUSE of the reduced grip to the rear.

Perhaps you should read again...

Feet getting wet yet?

LOL, nice try, maybe you should read my very helpful explanation of why increased roll stiffness increases lift off over-steer.

Maybe you could explain to everyone else how they 'reduce rear end grip'?

LOL, nice try, maybe you should read my very helpful explanation of why increased roll stiffness increases lift off over-steer.

Maybe you could explain to everyone else how they 'reduce rear end grip'?

You seem to be on some crusade...however I can't even be bothered to read your long winded responses anymore....you are frankly boring now and just arguing the toss for the sake of it...

To be honest...give it up...no one on here is really listening to you, or agrees or care what you post for that matter..

Classic cut and paste responses...classic!

move on...

Go Lift Off Oversteer YEAH

LOL, nice try, maybe you should read my very helpful explanation of why increased roll stiffness increases lift off over-steer.

Maybe you could explain to everyone else how they 'reduce rear end grip'?

I did go into it a little...

In this instance, the problem we have is a floppy as hell rear axle with p!$$ weak ends. These ends flex about because of the grip strangely caused by the tyres which are designed to, ooh, guess what, yup, that's right, GRIP. The hubs aren't stable, they are actually wobbling about causing the rear end to roll an awful lot because the body is constantly loading and unloading, especially when changing direction. As you know only too well (I hope) the rear bars primarily provide rigidity between these two axles massively reducing the flexing action towards each other. The next thing to happen as a result of this is the suspension loading less as a result of this action. Next thing is a reduction in rear grip because the car has loaded less, as the tyres aren't forced into the road as hard as a result, since they are now nicely in line (in comparison), and the walls aren't flexing as much either.

I see no point in making it any more detailed than that, since this has become nothing more than a p!SS!ng match, and you seem completely determined to make yourself look an even bigger ar$e than you have already.

Go Lift Off Oversteer YEAH

you need to watch that, gonna be real bad on your car in particular...ooosh

Yep. It's a real big issue when trying to coax the maximum mpg out of your diesel weasel at a steady 56 mph.

Ill have you know its optimum is at 42mph, 56 is if im in a hurry, and can afford to drop to 65mpg.

handling though helps my mpg as i want to not have to brake much for cornering thus not losing momentum and saving yet more fuel

and indeed as you say oet : oooooooosh and that

go lift off slight decelertion yeah

Edited 11 January, 201313 yr by Lofty79

Baaaahaaahaaahaaa :sun: