Going Electric... Richard's EV thread.

[BossFox]

BTW, I did agree to buy for £20k (against a list of around £25-26k after the £5k grant (£30k-£31k!?!?!)) but after another Nissan dealer slashed it's prices to £17,995 to get shot of their last ones the dealer in Romford I had ordered from dropped to the same figure, even though I'd already left a reasonable deposit.

Can't say fairer than that.

So with the two options it came in just over eighteen and a half, which although a fair amount of money is not too bad for a decent size, well specced car running on cheap electric.

[The Hood]

40 years ago my father worked at Lucas, they had an electric taxi. The entire floor was batteries and when they needed charging they lowered the floor and pushed the taxi forwards over another "floor" full of batteries which was jacked into place. Good job the leaf is not the same, but at that time Lucas decided that until a battery cell could produce more than 1.5 volts it was a no go.

[Dr Zoidberg]

That's not bad at all. It has occurred to me that we could cope quite easily with an electric car that I'd use for 20 miles of commuting, and then keep my diesel Bravo for longer weekend runs. That's pretty much stopped depreciating now and only costs 250 quid a year to tax and insure, but I'd still lose more on the new car than I'd ever save on fuel.

I'll be interested to see how it goes long term.

[wilsy7]

Looks rather nice inside

[lfc958]

Keyless entry made me chuckle, not having seen a LEAF up close i am having difficulty imagining it actually having a key to start the car.

Thought it would have a switch , like a light.

I personally dont believe EV's are the future given their limited range, I am just waiting to see how hydrogen progresses.

[Paul007]

Looks rather nice inside

more than the outside, but that's just my opinion. Be interested to see how this progresses though as my business mileage has halved over the last 12 months and the diesel isn't probably as cost effective as it was. I'd be tempted by an Ampera if I was doing this, though.

[BossFox]

People mention the Ampera to me a lot.

I just couldn't see the point.

Big heavy car, short 35 mile range on electric, low 40s mpg on petrol and a whopping price tag near thirty grand.

The electric range just isn't enough to make the list price anywhere near sensible.

I was glad to give it back.

Sure, in theory it's good as you can run on petrol too, but it's not economical.

You can get a decent same spec regular car far, far cheaper.

I would have to run the Ampera for about 10 years to make back the extra list price over a 20k car in fuel savings.

I found it an expensive compromise, as it's trying to do two jobs.

OK if you are a one car family and are prepared tp pay more to have an EV though.

[vRS Joe]

I've been inspired by this thread. Just been down to my Nissan dealership to have a look. I'm having an extended test next week. I mentioned the 'deal' and they can do it for £18800 with the solar spoiler, met paint and have a rapid home charger installed. My local dealer has only sold 1!

Richard, did you get the home charger too? The salesman said using a 3 pin plug damages the batteries and you need to have the charger installed - circa £800!

[MartynVRS]

I reckon in a few years, once they can do battery changes relatively cheaply I can see my parents buying one. They do hardly any miles, only 6000 last year and probably half of that was mine. They go to Aberystwyth once a month. That is a round trip of 140 miles which the Leaf couldn't do but they could either borrow my car or I'd go with them.

[PastyBoy]

Nice work rich if only it didn't look quite so wierd on the outside!!

Our company is carbon neutral and had a couple of leafs on extended test awhile back and they were well received but simply not a viable option for our mega miles sales people to use instead of their TDIs.

That said our director has brought her carbon footprint down by leaving her Jag XK parked up most of the time and commutes to work in an all electric smart car. No way that could ever be considered as a replacement for a 'proper car' but given she only needs it to drive across town twice a day it's the perfect vehicle.

As you've said there will be many many situations where an EV won't fit people's circumstances, however there will be rare circumstances when it'll be the right fit.

Personally I think it would make sense for me with a commute of just 7 miles each way 5 days a week and the car being garaged for most weekends.

However a high mileage Fabia I already fully own is a much better option than having to pay off a further 16k-ish in finance

[Yeti_Man]

People mention the Ampera to me a lot.

I just couldn't see the point.

Big heavy car, short 35 mile range on electric, low 40s mpg on petrol and a whopping price tag near thirty grand.

The electric range just isn't enough to make the list price anywhere near sensible.

I was glad to give it back.

Sure, in theory it's good as you can run on petrol too, but it's not economical.

You can get a decent same spec regular car far, far cheaper.

I would have to run the Ampera for about 10 years to make back the extra list price over a 20k car in fuel savings.

I found it an expensive compromise, as it's trying to do two jobs.

OK if you are a one car family and are prepared tp pay more to have an EV though.

It's interesting how people's views differ on this as I consider the Ampera or Volt to be far more suitable actually due to the fact they have the engine in them. I could rely on the batteries for my daily commute (10 miles each way) and charge it each night so getting the benefit of the cheap charge and then if i needed to go somewhere straight from work or at lunchtime, I wouldn't get stuck in the middle of now where with no power... The engine would simply fire into life and get me to my destination with no fuss. So 90% of the time I'd get the advantage of cheap running costs and 10% of the time I'd benefit from the extended range provided by the petrol lump when required. Plus I really quite like the look of the Volt and Ampero - saw loads in the US when I was last there and think they look awesome. :-) Be really interested to follow th progress of the Leaf. :-)

[BossFox]

I've been inspired by this thread. Just been down to my Nissan dealership to have a look. I'm having an extended test next week. I mentioned the 'deal' and they can do it for £18800 with the solar spoiler, met paint and have a rapid home charger installed. My local dealer has only sold 1!

Richard, did you get the home charger too? The salesman said using a 3 pin plug damages the batteries and you need to have the charger installed - circa £800!

No.

That sounds a bit of a con, however the car with the solar spoiler and metallic paint is already about £18.6k, so they are almost at that figure.

The mains charger takes about 10.5 hours to full charge the car from empty.

The fast charger takes about 7 hours to full charge the car from empty.

Why would charging the battery slightly more slowly damage it? :wonder:

What does damage the battery is using the 30 minute rapid chargers the Nissan dealers have, which will be rolled out across the country at some stage.

This is if you charge to 100%, which is why the car cuts the charge after it gets to 80% of charge.

Last week the government agreed to use some of the money set aside for the £5k car grants on EVs for home charging stations.

So in about a month or so you'll be able to get a home charging station fitted and only pay 25% of the cost (around £250).

[BossFox]

It's interesting how people's views differ on this as I consider the Ampera or Volt to be far more suitable actually due to the fact they have the engine in them. I could rely on the batteries for my daily commute (10 miles each way) and charge it each night so getting the benefit of the cheap charge and then if i needed to go somewhere straight from work or at lunchtime, I wouldn't get stuck in the middle of now where with no power... The engine would simply fire into life and get me to my destination with no fuss. So 90% of the time I'd get the advantage of cheap running costs and 10% of the time I'd benefit from the extended range provided by the petrol lump when required. Plus I really quite like the look of the Volt and Ampero - saw loads in the US when I was last there and think they look awesome. :-) Be really interested to follow th progress of the Leaf. :-)

See, when I read that what I see is someone that has such a short commute they will never see the benefit.

You will never save enough on fuel to justify the additional cost of a thirty grand EV. Which is what the Ampera is.

100 miles per week, even in a juicy petrol is around 3 gallons. That's around £1,000 per year in fuel savings.

If your Yeti was around £20k, you'll need to keep the Ampera a long time to make it viable over a petrol car.

That was my point. The Ampera is good... in theory.

But the electric range is so short before it switches to petrol it just can't pay for itself. A regular fuelled car is nearly always preferable.

It only makes sense for people that really want to drive an EV (and are prepared to pay a lot for one) but can't live with the range restrictions.

In two years there'll be several more EVs out, including a Golf, BMW, Renault... then the Ampera is going to look old hat and be suffering from a hefty amount of depreciation.

Paying £30k for one now I just can't understand.

Any fuel savings you make over the next few years will be destroyed by it's depreciation when cheaper/better cars come along.

The LEAF makes sense to me right now because they are knocking them out at £18k, which I can save with fuel/tax/running costs in a little under 5 years.

So even ignoring depreciation the car will have paid for itself in that time, even if I give it away afterwards when the warranty runs out.

[Yeti_Man]

Yep, what you say also makes a lot of sense to me. Give me an EV with far better range... just incase a change of plans comes up... and Id buy it in preference to the Volt hybrid... but then thats what isnt yet achievable! It'll be very interesting to see how the market changes over the coming years. Genuinely keen to see how the Leaf gets on in your hands so keep us up to date.

[vRS Joe]

Cheers Richard. I'll give the home charger a miss until it is discounted. We have 16 solar panels - on a sunny day they will peak at about 4kw. The leaf takes about 2.4kw while charging! We only get 4p per kw from exporting to the grid - makes charging it up very cheap!

[James I]

I am disappointed Richard, with your electric purchase you are encouraging the demise of the internal combustion engine by letting the car manufacturers that milk floats are the future.

On the serious side, it is ideal for London commuting and I am sure you will give us a full update of living with the leaf in the coming weeks.

[BossFox]

This is what I mean, based on my driving of 20k per year to work and back and a few trips out.

Octavia size well equipped diesel car = £18k, depreciation over 5 years = £10,000

20k miles per year for 5 years at 50mpg (1.40p per litre) = £12,900 (5 years)

VED for 5 years = £600

3 services = £600

Total = £24,100

LEAF EV = £18,600, depreciation over 5 years = £18,600 if you throw the car away.

20k miles per year for 5 years (£2.50p to charge for 70 miles) = £3,570

VED = £0

5 services = £525

Total = £22,695

So you can see that even if I throw the LEAF away when the warranty runs out after 5 years it's cheaper.

Whatever it's worth is a bonus!

Plus there are certain tax advantages to running an EV...

That's without taking into account free charging at work and free electric from my solar panels.

BUT... it works for me because my commute is long enough to save enough on fuel, but not too long I run out of charge on the way home.

And of course, we are a wo car family, so have the Yeti (my wife's) for weekends if we need a petrol car.

[BossFox]

Cheers Richard. I'll give the home charger a miss until it is discounted. We have 16 solar panels - on a sunny day they will peak at about 4kw. The leaf takes about 2.4kw while charging! We only get 4p per kw from exporting to the grid - makes charging it up very cheap!

I have a 4kw system too.

But I got in before Dec 2011, so I get a set fee of around £110 per month if I send no electric to the grid or loads of it.

So the more I use the better.

The LEAF is charging up while I write this, drawing 2.4kw.

Of which 600kw is coming from the roof on a cloudy day.

Every little helps.

With a charging pod it would charge at 16A, drawing 3.3kw and fully charge from empty in 7 hours instead of 10.5.

As soon as the new charging pods come out I am getting one.

[BossFox]

So today, as it was the first day of having the LEAF we took it to the seaside.

Along with Mr and Mrs Fox, Fox Jnr and Granny Fox.

Left home with a range of 101 miles with 3.5 people aboard and after a 40 mile round trip got home with 45 miles of range left, based on how I'd been driving.

Total energy used = 11kw, cost @ 12p per kw = £1.32p, less a little from the solar panels.

It cost me more than that to park for two hours!

[TriggerFish]

LEAF EV = £18,600, depreciation over 5 years = £18,600 if you throw the car away.

So you can see that even if I throw the LEAF away when the warranty runs out after 5 years it's cheaper.

Would they be thrown away after five years because it's end of life, or is that hypothetical worst case deprecation scenario?

Just thinking from an environmental POV the former is pretty terrible!

That £1.32 for 40 miles is decent though - would get me just under 9! :(

[BossFox]

I mean throw it away, rather than have a debate over future value.

If the battery loses more than 20 percent capacity in the first 5 years (60k miles) Nissan replace it.

[littleade]

BUT... it works for me because my commute is long enough to save enough on fuel, but not too long I run out of charge on the way home.

And of course, we are a wo car family, so have the Yeti (my wife's) for weekends if we need a petrol car.

Arn't you forgetting a certain 'other' Nisan, plus of course the 'stalker' when you put it on the road

The leaf would be an option worth considering for SWMBO's daily commute too if we needed another car at the mo on the financial front- downsides I can think of is she'd keep forgetting to plug it in every night and she'd have to take mine to see the chief SWMBO in Cornwall as the leaf wouldn't do the 230 miles to get there, so it would return complete with scratches and supermarket trolly dinks which wouldn't be good. It'd be a good option for retired people though if they only do local trips? (as a lot do)

[Chris]

What happens if you get 5 miles from home and you run out of range. For example if there was a diversion due to an accident or roadworks. Obviously you stop but do Nissan have a team of breakdown people with battery chargers or is it a case of call the AA who will probably say tough, its not a breakdown...a bit like running out of petrol.

[BossFox]

The range is a little on the safe side.

Nobody knows for sure how much, but it'll run for a bit when range hits 0 then go into "turtle mode" allowing you to limp it slowly to a safe place.

Basically so you don't conk out in the middle of the road.

Nissan include 3 years breakdown cover.

In the first year this includes unlimited running out of range accidents, in the second year it includes one such incident.

[greenstripe]

I doubt it would be that much of an issue, surely even if it were run to out of electricity -it could limp to somewhere with a plug socket. It's a city car designed for short journeys.

I quite like the idea of all electric vehicles for in town use. Hopefully in time the range will improve to make them an only car proposition.