wrong, mine failed - but then that had a lot to do with the dealer leaving a wrench on top of the engine, which then rattled off, hit the drive shaft and then the holed the gearbox casing

Good one

Looks like we might be getting somewhere. Certainly twisting a few knickers along the way.

Agreed. BUT, DSG if put into manual mode CANNOT change gears by itself unless current gear selected by the driver threatens to stall the engine or blow it - safety features. In my book this is full manual operation. If you add mechanical design of shafts and gears inside it is the same as traditional, H-pattern box

Nope.

DSG in manual mode has complete ECU over-ride. Over-rev, under-rev. It's no different to any other tip-tronic box.

For a DSG to be full-manual operation you would need two gear levers and two clutch pedals. At which point you'd be able to pull the power plug from the TCU and keep driving. But DSG in it's current form can't do any of that.

Also you have Manual Sequential boxes, which despite being termed as manual can only be operated by CPU assisted hydraulics/selenoids etc. - without this automation it doesn't work.

And, it has actuators in a form of gear selector and forks but they are operated purely mechanically. DSG operates them by means of CPU assisted hydraulics.

Again nope.

Manual seqential boxes are completely manual. They have no electronic/hydraulic actuators at all. They have a gear-lever and a clutch. Just like a motorbike.

Agreed, but add electronics and you have a fully automated gearbox operation available. In my book what you described above is a semi-auto box. The only difference between fully manual H-pattern and sequential is that gear selector is grooved in such a way as to make none-sequential gear change impossible, as explained by that geek in video J

The difference between an automated and automatic box is the ability to self-change. There is no "semi-automatic" in the middle. It either can self-change or can't. DSG can. Automated sequentials can't.

NOT AGREED. In operation DSG can be set to FULL MANUAL. Push the lever to the left side and the box disengages all the electronics bar safety features (over rev and stall protection) and WILL NOT change the gears by itself, ever. I tested this extensively in my car and this is how it works, fact of life. Mind you, I am not talking here about MECHANICS behind the operation of the above, just the operation in itself.

There is no full manual on any DSG car. If you find one with two gearlevers and two clutch pedals, let me know.

And this is where you are wrong. 7-speed DSG (the one I drove every day in my Fabia vRS) and Octy III 6-speed DSG (I recently extensively test drove) can be put in full manual mode. What you are mistaking here is driving in “D” or “S” and flipping paddles, overriding the box’s electronics. In such instance what you wrote above is absolutely true.

There is one more mode of operation, full manual. You do that by moving the stick to the left (in UK). In this mode mechatronics never overrides drivers choice unless it would over rev the engine (it will not downshift then) or will risk stalling it (or going below idle revs or some other bottom rev limit). Otherwise it will stay in the gear you want and “downkick” is not working at all. My gearbox works just like that. To me it is automated manual box in this mode.

Same as every other tip-tronic box in the world. Audi's multitronic and conventional autos do exactly the same thing in trip-tronic mode.

It's not manual in any way.

Construction wise DSG is also a an automated manual box with mechatronics simulating fully automatic operation. “Real” automatic or “classic” automatic gearbox is this ZF-8 with fluid torque converters (clutches), hydraulic brakes and sets of planetary gears – rather different from two plane cog shafts of classic manual or DSG manual.

Construction wise it's nothing like a normal or even automated manual box. It's got two input shafts and two clutches for a start. It also has two independent gear-sets inside.

To keep it a bit shorter

As far as the construction of the DSG compared to traditional manual is concerned there is no need to explain how similar they are. The modus operandi is exactly the same, the arrangement of gears is exactly the same. Gears are always engaged on both concentric input shafts in exactly the same way as in manual and are engaged in exactly the same way as in manual. It is there, just look at it. However traditional manual and DSG are not identical in construction of course. Input shaft consists of two concentric shafts mated to the engine via two “serial arrangement” clutches sitting on one axis and one concentric shaft. They are different but the design principle is the same. They are often called two manual gearboxes put together i.e. two input shafts with two independent clutches operating as one in identical fashion as in manual gearbox.

Here similarities in construction end.

What you mixed up in your post completely is your very good separation of earlier between the build and the operation of a gearbox.

You claim that it is no different to any other tiptronic box. I cannot agree here.

Tiptronic works like DSG in “D” mode when you override CPU with paddles (cannot do it with the stick obviously). And yes, it will override and default into full auto if you keep cruising at constant speed etc. DSG in full manual is not capable of that. I drive it everyday and unless I am severely delusional and hallucinate each time I get into the car DSG in full manual OPERATION mode will not change gears unless I am about to blow the engine or stall it. Kick down doesn’t work either. I can mash the accelerator pedal to the floor in 7-th gear at 30mph and it will not kick down by itself. However, if in D or S it will. It is full manual according to your own definition as it is not able to self change, bar safety features, which as I mentioned are present in H-pattern manual boxes as well.

In all 7-speed DSG takes best things from both worlds. It is build “frugally” just like manual box, has dry clutches like manual box, is much lighter than torque converter auto.

In higher powered cars it is more efficient and much quickier. Look at page 64.

http://www.audi.co.uk/content/dam/audi/production/PDF/PriceAndSpecGuides/ttrs.pdf

That is lab data. In real life manual boxes even in low powered cars (like most skodas) no driver can achieve those figures in manual where DSG will give you the same figures as advertised provided both manual and dsg cars are driven in similar way.

I think we have to agree to disagree as what I posted is self explanatory, based my own real life experience of the DSG gearboxes and backed up by all the tests.

BTW, there are semi-automatic gearboxes. They were used in Formula 1 some time ago where downshifts were performed without drivers intervention. This gearbox doesn’t fit any of to your definitions as according to them it is automated sequential manual box or according to the other, depending which one you choose to emply it is fully automatic as has the ability to self-change gears . No, it is not, it is semi auto.

Interesting comparison today, in Autocar & Autoexpress magazines, of the new Octavia III in manual and DSG form.

Both were the new 2.0 TDI in 148 bhp form.

The manual figures were:

0- 62mph 8.2 secs.135 mph.

combined mpg.68.9

CO2.106gm/km

The DSG figures were:

0-62mph 8.3secs.134mph.

combined mpg 62.8

CO2. 119gm/km

They also thought the DSG made smooth urban progress difficult because of its determination to stay in a high gear even under Duress.(Whatever that means.)

I'm sure Skoda did their damnest to get the DSG CO2 figure down to 119gm/km,yet were able to achieve 106gm/km for the manual....

I will say no more.

Which is fine. Then look at VW website and you will see an opposite trend for two (or three) completely different engines.

They couldn't "do their demnest" with the DSG, it will work in exactly the same way in the test environment as it would on the road. Contrary to manual, where so much more depends on the human input. I'd claim with some certainty that the manual figures as published are not possible to be replicated in real life. I am yet to see a car returning advertied environmental figures in real life driving. Even if you ask them (dealers, reps) they will all tell you to add roughly 20% to fuel consumption figures .

I love the concept of the DSG and the box in the Fabia VRS is very well set up. However I have read of a spate of complaints in China too regarding reliability issues. I think like any modern car and tech it is a lottery to be honest. A manual cars dual mass flywheel and clutch can go premaurely too and you are facing big bills there too :/

http://www.autoevolu...hina-45400.html

Edited 25 March, 201313 yr by Matt Bodycombe

Matt,

The Chienese Affair ( ) was confirme to be due faulty manufacturing and quality control process ad not the design. EU made DSG boxes (actually made in Germany) have no reported failures. I only heard about one mechatronic unit failing and that was under warranty. If you are worried buy extended warranty, well worth shelling out on that one with Skoda.

To keep it a bit shorter

As far as the construction of the DSG compared to traditional manual is concerned there is no need to explain how similar they are. The modus operandi is exactly the same, the arrangement of gears is exactly the same. Gears are always engaged on both concentric input shafts in exactly the same way as in manual and are engaged in exactly the same way as in manual. It is there, just look at it. However traditional manual and DSG are not identical in construction of course. Input shaft consists of two concentric shafts mated to the engine via two “serial arrangement” clutches sitting on one axis and one concentric shaft. They are different but the design principle is the same. They are often called two manual gearboxes put together i.e. two input shafts with two independent clutches operating as one in identical fashion as in manual gearbox.

Here similarities in construction end.

What you mixed up in your post completely is your very good separation of earlier between the build and the operation of a gearbox.

You claim that it is no different to any other tiptronic box. I cannot agree here.

Tiptronic works like DSG in “D” mode when you override CPU with paddles (cannot do it with the stick obviously). And yes, it will override and default into full auto if you keep cruising at constant speed etc. DSG in full manual is not capable of that. I drive it everyday and unless I am severely delusional and hallucinate each time I get into the car DSG in full manual OPERATION mode will not change gears unless I am about to blow the engine or stall it. Kick down doesn’t work either. I can mash the accelerator pedal to the floor in 7-th gear at 30mph and it will not kick down by itself. However, if in D or S it will. It is full manual according to your own definition as it is not able to self change, bar safety features, which as I mentioned are present in H-pattern manual boxes as well.

In all 7-speed DSG takes best things from both worlds. It is build “frugally” just like manual box, has dry clutches like manual box, is much lighter than torque converter auto.

In higher powered cars it is more efficient and much quickier. Look at page 64.

http://www.audi.co.u...Guides/ttrs.pdf

That is lab data. In real life manual boxes even in low powered cars (like most skodas) no driver can achieve those figures in manual where DSG will give you the same figures as advertised provided both manual and dsg cars are driven in similar way.

I think we have to agree to disagree as what I posted is self explanatory, based my own real life experience of the DSG gearboxes and backed up by all the tests.

BTW, there are semi-automatic gearboxes. They were used in Formula 1 some time ago where downshifts were performed without drivers intervention. This gearbox doesn’t fit any of to your definitions as according to them it is automated sequential manual box or according to the other, depending which one you choose to emply it is fully automatic as has the ability to self-change gears . No, it is not, it is semi auto.

Jabo, I can tell you're madly in love with your DSG box. But the claims you are making here are complete rubbish.

It's the equivalent of saying my dog is so awesome he's actually a lion. When the only thing he does that a lion would do is scare the occasional visitor.

All of the fuel economy figures, both manufacturer and real world show DSG is an extra loss. This loss is the parasitic effect of the internal hydraulics required to make it work. Finding a driver crappy enough to get worse results in a manual does not help your argument.

If you want to discuss audi boxes, get back to us with the gear ratios for both options.

The construction of the box is completely different to a manual. Counting the input shafts and clutches makes that perfectly clear. Not to mention the game-changing differences of two clutches internally vs single external.

Trying to argue that the completely electronically managed tiptronic mode is manual is a poor trick only used by car salesmen trying to sell automatic cars to people who only want a manual.

Matt, DSG's also have dual-mass flywheels. So that maintenance cost remains.

I do like my 7-speed DSG box a lot, which is true. It is also true that my gearbox is maintenance free, sealed unit with no maintenance costs involved. It also true that some engines show better performance with manual boxes compared to the same ones with DSG (Skoda) boxes and vice versa (Audi and Volkswagen).

If you cannot understand engineering principles behind DSG box, which makes is identical to a traditional manual gearbox then I am not able to help you. These are mechanical engineering fundamentals, not something to argue about. I tried to make it clear to you but failed miserably, was always crap as a teacher.

Lets just leave it at that, we differ in our views, you claim one thing I cite another and we are not able to convince each other to the contrary so I agree to disagree with you.

Popcorn anyone?

I could either microwave it or place it in the semi-automatic electric oven

B00lock$, it is obviously built like manual!

B00lock$, it is obviously built like manual!

You don't even know what make it is, conclusive evidence that you have no idea what you're talking about

Doesn't matter, I am still right!

Edited 25 March, 201313 yr by Jabozuma

Doesn't matter, I am still right!

You like to think you are

One of these days you'll wake up and smell the coffee

I do like my 7-speed DSG box a lot, which is true. It is also true that my gearbox is maintenance free, sealed unit with no maintenance costs involved. It also true that some engines show better performance with manual boxes compared to the same ones with DSG (Skoda) boxes and vice versa (Audi and Volkswagen).

You do know what "sealed for life" actually means? It means sorry, we can't fix that, you'll have to buy a new one. I guess you'll have to file DMF replacement under "other expense" instead of "maintenance cost".

If you cannot understand engineering principles behind DSG box, which makes is identical to a traditional manual gearbox then I am not able to help you. These are mechanical engineering fundamentals, not something to argue about.

It's funny you should say that. Mechanical Engineering fundamentals are something I'm quite good at and fully qualified to argue about. If a Mechanical Engineer says "no, they are different, they have different numbers of input shafts, completely different clutch mechanisms in a completely different place etc" then you really need a better rebuttal than "You don't understand mechanical principals". But your followup comment of "then I am not able to help you" is actually 100% accurate.

I tried to make it clear to you but failed miserably, was always crap as a teacher.

Lets just leave it at that, we differ in our views, you claim one thing I cite another and we are not able to convince each other to the contrary so I agree to disagree with you.

Guys I am sure you realize that there are some folk that would argue with their own shadow, then argue about who won the argument. Been there done that with jamo to the extent that I blocked his posts so have only seen one side of what ha actually been an interesting thread as I am considering DSG for my next car.

You like to think you are

One of these days you'll wake up and smell the coffee

*sigh* and on we go again...

That was a tongue in cheek typo of comment...

I am saddened in the knowledge that you will never wake up despite smelling truck loads of coffee :(.

A wise man once said " The more I know the more I realise how little I know and how much more is there still to learn".

Only an arrogant fool thinks he knows it all...

I lost count of how many "more than qualified" engineers of all sorts I met along the way, who having read a few text books and filled their heads with rigid definitions, went on to make such an unbelievable mess of things it was beyond belief. Yet still adamant it was by the book...

If manual gearbox was such a pinnacle of engineering nobody would bother with planetary gear torque converter autos SMTs and then DSGs.

DSG gearbox is superior on all accounts bar one, weight. But even there it disappears as very weight sensitive motorbike designers started using DSG boxes four years ago. I believe Honda had the first one out.

Surely all of them are wrong and wasting their time while they should be heeding kiwibacon's sermons on how brilliant manual gearbox is. It helps to distinguish between biased personal preference and hard facts. Nothing wrong with personal preference and everybody is more than entitled to one

We can split in this post into:

1. Personal attacks:

*sigh* and on we go again...

That was a tongue in cheek typo of comment...

I am saddened in the knowledge that you will never wake up despite smelling truck loads of coffee :(.

A wise man once said " The more I know the more I realise how little I know and how much more is there still to learn".

Only an arrogant fool thinks he knows it all...

I lost count of how many "more than qualified" engineers of all sorts I met along the way, who having read a few text books and filled their heads with rigid definitions, went on to make such an unbelievable mess of things it was beyond belief. Yet still adamant it was by the book...

2. Missing the point and changing the subject:

If manual gearbox was such a pinnacle of engineering nobody would bother with planetary gear torque converter autos SMTs and then DSGs.

DSG gearbox is superior on all accounts bar one, weight. But even there it disappears as very weight sensitive motorbike designers started using DSG boxes four years ago. I believe Honda had the first one out.

Surely all of them are wrong and wasting their time while they should be heeding kiwibacon's sermons on how brilliant manual gearbox is. It helps to distinguish between biased personal preference and hard facts. Nothing wrong with personal preference and everybody is more than entitled to one

Only an arrogant fool thinks he knows it all...

You said it, and it's great that you've finally been able to come out of the closet

Have you applied for the Chancellor of the Exchequer's job yet?

And on that cue I will bow out.