From the description of your experiences 7-speed DSG I'm Fabia vRS has absolutely no problems at roundabouts. This is partly due to it being seven speed and partly to the fact that the engine pulls literary from zero revs due to supercharger. The only problem in my experience is while in D, breaking heavily and then trying to accelerate straight away, then it hesitates perceptibly. Otherwise no problems.

You are right in that sequential boxes are called "manual sequential gearbox". The are versions of it where hear change instigated buy gear stick movement rotates a ratchet and this perhaps as close as you can get to calling it manual. In most cases, the "manual paddles" you describe are just electronic switches operating hydraulics, solenoid or other solution in the box with no "linkage" between the two. Even "traditional" sticks in manual sequential boxes have no direct linkage to the box itself and are there because drivers like it that way as opposed to a paddle(s) on the wheel.

F1 is yet different as it employs two clutches and two "cog shafts" similar to DSG but still being sequential in its nature.

None of the above has anything to do with any manual gearbox you find in a road car I any conceivable way .

So yes, I was perhaps wrong in employing a manual gearbox term to a road car H-pattern box ad automatic to everything else, since as I described in all cases (some classes probably have "augmented" shifting mechanism forbidden and only direct link ratchet allowed) there is not much "manual going on really. F1 is the best example where despite the box being called manual sequential box the only manual thing is the fact that in order to change gears driver sends a signal to CPU controlled unit requesting gear change. But hey ho, for the semantics purists it is still manual sequential box, so let's be it, I can call it that as well

If you looked at schematics (plenty of very good animations on da toobe) you'd see F1 box is exactly the same as DSG but with much simplified "machatronics" units as it is sequential and only needs to move " up and down " the gears in sequence - for those who are not familiar with this.

Sorry, but no. The F1 sequential gearbox animations are nothing like DSG. DSG runs two concentric input shafts, each running about half the gear ratios. F1 doesn't.

F1 is an automated (not to be confused with automatic) sequential gearbox which is closer in form and function to a motorbike gearbox than anything VAG have put in a road car.

Whether a sequential box is changed via a lever or buttons, it's still a sequential manual box.

You should change that. It will bring a smile to your face and a kindness and understanding of your fellow forumites!

My scout was about 10 seconds 0-100km/h stock. Remapped it might even be 8 seconds 0-100km/h. Yes my eco mapper decided he'd crank the torque liimiters up by 35%

That's very quick for what it is, but the 0-100 time wasn't even on the list of criteria that led me tor purchase that car.

If you want fast 0-100km/h then go ride a sport bike. I once rode a Yamaha R1, nothing has felt fast in acceleration since.

I really don't understand the appeal of buying an automatic car, holding the accelerator and having nothing to do but watching the needle climb. The SPCA here have trained dogs that can do that.

Health reasons?

If I use a clutch for any length of time I get sciatica.

Sent using whatever device I'm using at the time.

Sorry, but no. The F1 sequential gearbox animations are nothing like DSG. DSG runs two concentric input shafts, each running about half the gear ratios. F1 doesn't.

F1 is an automated (not to be confused with automatic) sequential gearbox which is closer in form and function to a motorbike gearbox than anything VAG have put in a road car.

Whether a sequential box is changed via a lever or buttons, it's still a sequential manual box.

DSG Box

Sequential box

Cannot see how almost identical they are?

Differences are two.

1. DSG has dual clutch, and you are right here, input side comprises two concentric shafts each holding half the cogs. This allows for preselection and massively faster than manual gear changes

2. Selector shaft and selector forks arrangement.

Why would you want to have a DSG box?

There is reason why VAG does not offer 1.4 TSi twincharger with manual, it is simply pointless. Fuel consumption would be through the roof compared with DSG. Performance would be pathetic compared to DSG. Driving would be tedious having to constantly shift through 7 gears.

Having two identical cars, roughly in a 200hp ball park, one with DSG and the other with manual the DSG equipped one would mope the floor with manual one even you were siting behind the wheel with inhuman gear change speed and timing .

What also manual cannot give me is the experience of relaxed motoring when I do not want to be so fully engaged in driving but still get from A-B in comfort. M25 traffic jam? DSG is a God send! Rush hour town driving? Again the same story. I seriouslt grew sick and tired of gear changing in such situations. For that reason only DSG is worth it. When you add better fuel consumption in higher powered cars (doesn't apply to things like 1.2TSi and the like) and sheer a$$ whooping potential - no brainer. Add paddle change...

BTW, have you ever driven 7-speed DSG Fabia vRS?

Funny thing is that I had exactly the same point of view like you kiwibacon until I got my grubby mitts on my Fabia! I got converted very quickly

Oh, ZF-8 for anybody interested

Cannot see how almost identical they are?

They are both gearboxes, they both transmit power from engines to differentials. That's about it. Not indentical in any way.

Why would you want to have a DSG box?

There is reason why VAG does not offer 1.4 TSi twincharger with manual, it is simply pointless. Fuel consumption would be through the roof compared with DSG. Performance would be pathetic compared to DSG. Driving would be tedious having to constantly shift through 7 gears.

Having two identical cars, roughly in a 200hp ball park, one with DSG and the other with manual the DSG equipped one would mope the floor with manual one even you were siting behind the wheel with inhuman gear change speed and timing .

The factory performance figures give the 0-100km/h advatange, fuel economy advantage and top speed advantage to the manual boxes. The 7sp DSG only wins in one urban test by 0.1 litres/100km. See the earlier notes about standardised tests.

Given the sprint and top speed advantage goes to the manual, where is this "performance" gain again?

VAG haven't matched the 1.4 twincharger (an engine I'd never buy) with the manual for their own internal marketing reasons. Same reason they don't offer a 170hp 4wd dsg superb or a 4wd Octavia VRS. It has nothing to do with technical capability.

The "inhuman gear change speed" is only needed because an automatic box is reactive, where a manual gearbox is predictive. I don't need a 0.2 second change down for passing, because I selected the appropriate gear 3 seconds ago.

What also manual cannot give me is the experience of relaxed motoring when I do not want to be so fully engaged in driving but still get from A-B in comfort. M25 traffic jam? DSG is a God send! Rush hour town driving? Again the same story. I seriouslt grew sick and tired of gear changing in such situations. For that reason only DSG is worth it. When you add better fuel consumption in higher powered cars (doesn't apply to things like 1.2TSi and the like) and sheer a$$ whooping potential - no brainer. Add paddle change...

BTW, have you ever driven 7-speed DSG Fabia vRS?

Funny thing is that I had exactly the same point of view like you kiwibacon until I got my grubby mitts on my Fabia! I got converted very quickly

Traffic jam motoring isn't just for DSG, that's any auto. Personally I found 6sp ZF autos far better to drive than the 6sp DSG. I haven't driven a 7sp fabia DSG and likely never will. They don't fit my needs at all.

There is no "better fuel consumption in higher powered cars" and traffic light racing isn't my thing. But the shorter 0-100km/h time for the manual (skodas own figures) show which is the better choice.

Paddle-shifting? I hate it. I've driven many auto vehicles which pretend to be sports cars by fitting paddles to the steering wheel and I haven't found them any use. You can't use them in anything but a straight line as your wrist angle changes when the wheel turns. F1 cars run about 1/2 a turn lock to lock. Road cars don't.

The gearlever on the other hand, is always exactly where I left it.

The Paddles work very well on the Subaru XV Lineatronic (CVT),

and on the Subaru GT86/Subaru BRZ Automatic.

The reason for the Twincharger having a DSG is 0-2400 rpm Supercharger, 2400-3500 rpm Supercharger & Turbo Charger,

3500-7000 revs Turbo charger.

1st gear only being an at stop or almost stopped gear choice, the rest happening at a pace that some of the lower BHP Twinchargers work at, but to get the Economy or benefit, manual changes really just never has it in a high enough gear.

The odd performance over ride might give some fun but is unlikely to better the DSG gear selection going up the gears.

*DSG's do come with a Gearstick to change gear, the only thing missing is a clutch pedal and if you want to use both legs,

a push bike is good for exercise.

My Durashift Transit van with Button Selection & Steering wheel changes was a bad mistake,

and a Fiat 500C Abarth Buttons and paddles is a bit Marmite.*

george.

A bit of a simplification, but the Full Twincharger tech manual is worth a look.

Voice over made me laugh.

http://www.volkswage...logy/petrol/tsi

The Paddles work very well on the Subaru XV Lineatronic (CVT),

and on the Subaru GT86/Subaru BRZ Automatic.

I drove a Subaru XV recently. It would have to rate as the worst new car I've driven. From the finish on the door frames, to the interior and exterior design and complete lack of space for the vehicle size. Some of the other paddles which have irked me in the past were subaru twin turbo legacies. Which were a far better design, fit and finish than that XV travesty.

I really don't care enough about the twincharger to read it's manual. Yes DSG and other tip-tronics have a gear lever (well most of them) But it has no feedback. You can't tell which gear you are in by lever position. You've got to peel your eyes off the road and refocus from 50m ahead to 50cm ahead to read the dash cluster.

They are both gearboxes, they both transmit power from engines to differentials. That's about it. Not indentical in any way.

LOL. If this is your approach then hey, you are right...

If fail to see that DSG indeed IS a MANUAL GEARBOX with a computer governing selector forks and dual clutch packs. It is made even easier to understand, even for a complete dilettante, by just LOOKING on those tube flicks. The main part is EXACTLY the same. To make it even easier if at all possible there is a schematic animation of an AUTOMATIC gearbox, ZF-8, for a comparison.

When I push the lever to the side the operation is FULLY manual, computer is largely disconnected bar safety functions protecting the whole shebang from halfwits. It's plainly obvious that when you forget the paddles the operation via gear stick, which for your convenience is still in the same place where you left it should you have problems finding it again, is exactly the same as sequential box but much faster. Added to it is the ability to drop more than 1gear at a time. Economy is derived, as opposed to a traditional gearbox, from the lack of torque converters, dry clutches and exactly the same "oil churning" losses as in H-pattern traditional manual. 6-speed boxes have a wet clutch and lots of oil to churn and waste some of the engine torque on that.

Again, DSG is a manual box with a actuation hydraulics, clever CPU and dual clutches.

I thin vRSy mentioned some cars with manual dual clutch boxes. That is a DSG but without mechatronics sub-system.

LOL. If this is your approach then hey, you are right...

If fail to see that DSG indeed IS a MANUAL GEARBOX with a computer governing selector forks and dual clutch packs. It is made even easier to understand, even for a complete dilettante, by just LOOKING on those tube flicks. The main part is EXACTLY the same. To make it even easier if at all possible there is a schematic animation of an AUTOMATIC gearbox, ZF-8, for a comparison.

When I push the lever to the side the operation is FULLY manual, computer is largely disconnected bar safety functions protecting the whole shebang from halfwits. It's plainly obvious that when you forget the paddles the operation via gear stick, which for your convenience is still in the same place where you left it should you have problems finding it again, is exactly the same as sequential box but much faster. Added to it is the ability to drop more than 1gear at a time. Economy is derived, as opposed to a traditional gearbox, from the lack of torque converters, dry clutches and exactly the same "oil churning" losses as in H-pattern traditional manual. 6-speed boxes have a wet clutch and lots of oil to churn and waste some of the engine torque on that.

Again, DSG is a manual box with a actuation hydraulics, clever CPU and dual clutches.

I thin vRSy mentioned some cars with manual dual clutch boxes. That is a DSG but without mechatronics sub-system.

Jabo, we need to start you with the basics.

Automatic vs Manual.

A manual gearbox cannot change gear by itself. It has no actuators inside and no ECU to choose the gears. It is fully manually operated.

An automatic gearbox can and does change gears by itself.

Do we agree this far?

Next we have gearboxes in the middle.

The F1 sequential gearbox fits in here. It is a manually activated box that cannot and is not allowed to change gears by itself. But instead of a lever, it has electrical switches for gear selection.

These gearboxes do have actuators inside, but they cannot change gears by itself.

Do you agree this far?

A DSG gearbox cannot exist as a manual box. The synchonisation of the clutches and the gear pre-selection can only be done by computer control.

A sequential gearbox (motorbike, F1, Rally etc) can and does exist as a fully manual gearbox.

Do you agree with this?

Now so far we have only discussed how they change gears. Not what is inside them.

If we delve inside we can split these boxes clearly by actuation. Those that can be completely manual and those that require internal hydraulics.

Completely manual.

We have the traditional manual gearbox in all layouts (transverse, longitudinal etc) and flavours.

We have sequential gearboxes in the same layouts and flavours. But we can include motorbike layouts in the mix.

Automated.

This is where you have manual selection taken over by computer control.

Any gearbox can be made to fit this category.

Automatic.

This is where gear selection and gear changing is organised by the computer control. No manual intervention. Any automated gearbox can be converted to fully automatic.

Now your DSG box can only run in two modes. Automatic and automated. But automated is limited, it will still take over and change gears for you. Meaning you only have a limited amount of over-ride. There is no manual way of operating a DSG gearbox.

Do you agree with this also?

Well well.

It now appears that being patronising and unpleasant is the order of the day. How much does an internet argument matter? Too much for civil discourse it seems.

Please could a mod step in and ensure some time for calming down?

JCP, relax, it is just a heated discussion but very civilised and I enjoy immensely . At the moment we are at a stage sorting out our understanding of the basics.

I have requested a Mod to remove this from the Yeti section, as it now has absolutely nothing to do with here.

That is nonesense.

The subject was DSG in the Yeti, or 'The possible life of a DSG'.

that was covered,

then the subject continued as DSG and gearboxes.

To think there is OT Yeti stuff posted in this Section regularly, eg , slagging Vauxhalls etc.

Some people are rather selective on what is OTT, and what is OK for here.. IMHO.

george

1: This started as a DSG in a Yeti topic, try and keep on topic as it's staying here.

2: Please respect each others views, even if you don't agree with them. If the tone of this topic doesn't improve, it's getting locked.

3: As far as I'm aware the Type 9 is a rear wheel drive gearbox with reverse to the left and up, whereas there is a MT75 rear wheel drive gearbox with reverse over to the right and down. There was an unrelated MTX75 gearbox for front wheel drive applications.

1: This started as a DSG in a Yeti topic, try and keep on topic as it's staying here.

2: Please respect each others views, even if you don't agree with them. If the tone of this topic doesn't improve, it's getting locked.

3: As far as I'm aware the Type 9 is a rear wheel drive gearbox with reverse to the left and up, whereas there is a MT75 rear wheel drive gearbox with reverse over to the right and down. There was an unrelated MTX75 gearbox for front wheel drive applications.

1/ Not a problem. I just thought that as the discussion had moved on to other, more advanced matters, it might get a better airing in the general Technical section.

2/ Not me this time. :sun:

3/ Correct. The Type 9 is what is commonly fitted to the Mk2 Escort RS2000 rally cars, so rear wheel drive, and a lot of people are fitting a sequential type shift to the remote set-up. Personally I think they look rather silly, and they have been banned by the HCRC.

Jabo, we need to start you with the basics.

Automatic vs Manual.

A manual gearbox cannot change gear by itself. It has no actuators inside and no ECU to choose the gears. It is fully manually operated.

An automatic gearbox can and does change gears by itself.

Do we agree this far?

Agreed. BUT, DSG if put into manual mode CANNOT change gears by itself unless current gear selected by the driver threatens to stall the engine or blow it - safety features. In my book this is full manual operation. If you add mechanical design of shafts and gears inside it is the same as traditional, H-pattern box

Also you have Manual Sequential boxes, which despite being termed as manual can only be operated by CPU assisted hydraulics/selenoids etc. - without this automation it doesn't work.

And, it has actuators in a form of gear selector and forks but they are operated purely mechanically. DSG operates them by means of CPU assisted hydraulics.

Next we have gearboxes in the middle.

The F1 sequential gearbox fits in here. It is a manually activated box that cannot and is not allowed to change gears by itself. But instead of a lever, it has electrical switches for gear selection.

These gearboxes do have actuators inside, but they cannot change gears by itself.

Do you agree this far?

Agreed, but add electronics and you have a fully automated gearbox operation available. In my book what you described above is a semi-auto box. The only difference between fully manual H-pattern and sequential is that gear selector is grooved in such a way as to make none-sequential gear change impossible, as explained by that geek in video J

A DSG gearbox cannot exist as a manual box. The synchonisation of the clutches and the gear pre-selection can only be done by computer control.

A sequential gearbox (motorbike, F1, Rally etc) can and does exist as a fully manual gearbox.

Do you agree with this?

NOT AGREED. In operation DSG can be set to FULL MANUAL. Push the lever to the left side and the box disengages all the electronics bar safety features (over rev and stall protection) and WILL NOT change the gears by itself, ever. I tested this extensively in my car and this is how it works, fact of life. Mind you, I am not talking here about MECHANICS behind the operation of the above, just the operation in itself.

Now so far we have only discussed how they change gears. Not what is inside them.

If we delve inside we can split these boxes clearly by actuation. Those that can be completely manual and those that require internal hydraulics.

Completely manual.

We have the traditional manual gearbox in all layouts (transverse, longitudinal etc) and flavours.

We have sequential gearboxes in the same layouts and flavours. But we can include motorbike layouts in the mix.

Agreed, mechanical linkage, no hydraulics/selenoids and you have full manual

Automated.

This is where you have manual selection taken over by computer control.

Any gearbox can be made to fit this category.

DSG is an automated manual gearbox with two clutches, also automated J

Automatic.

This is where gear selection and gear changing is organised by the computer control. No manual intervention. Any automated gearbox can be converted to fully automatic.

Now your DSG box can only run in two modes. Automatic and automated. But automated is limited, it will still take over and change gears for you. Meaning you only have a limited amount of over-ride. There is no manual way of operating a DSG gearbox.

Do you agree with this also?

And this is where you are wrong. 7-speed DSG (the one I drove every day in my Fabia vRS) and Octy III 6-speed DSG (I recently extensively test drove) can be put in full manual mode. What you are mistaking here is driving in “D” or “S” and flipping paddles, overriding the box’s electronics. In such instance what you wrote above is absolutely true.

There is one more mode of operation, full manual. You do that by moving the stick to the left (in UK). In this mode mechatronics never overrides drivers choice unless it would over rev the engine (it will not downshift then) or will risk stalling it (or going below idle revs or some other bottom rev limit). Otherwise it will stay in the gear you want and “downkick” is not working at all. My gearbox works just like that. To me it is automated manual box in this mode.

Construction wise DSG is also a an automated manual box with mechatronics simulating fully automatic operation. “Real” automatic or “classic” automatic gearbox is this ZF-8 with fluid torque converters (clutches), hydraulic brakes and sets of planetary gears – rather different from two plane cog shafts of classic manual or DSG manual.

1/ Not a problem. I just thought that as the discussion had moved on to other, more advanced matters, it might get a better airing in the general Technical section.

I'd tend to agree as this gets really nitty/gritty and might be too much for a specific Yeti DSG discussion. However 6-speed DSG is common across the VAG so...

Edited 24 March, 201313 yr by Jabozuma

NOT AGREED. In operation DSG can be set to FULL MANUAL. Push the lever to the left side and the box disengages all the electronics bar safety features (over rev and stall protection) and WILL NOT change the gears by itself, ever

So it's not a FULL MANUAL then, as a full manual, if you didn't change gear would stall, and would let you rev the balls out of it

Surely you're actually arguing against yourself there

I'm fully aware of the fact that you said 'bar safety features', but a full manual doesn't have those safety features

No Brimma, despite having a bit of split personality I am not going to argue against myself. Again, semantics, in traditional sense of the word it is not full manual despite all modern manuals having safety features as well- it is not possible to down shift into 1st gear from third at speed.

There is one more mode of operation, full manual. You do that by moving the stick to the left (in UK). In this mode mechatronics never overrides drivers choice unless it would over rev the engine (it will not downshift then) or will risk stalling it (or going below idle revs or some other bottom rev limit). Otherwise it will stay in the gear you want and “downkick” is not working at all. My gearbox works just like that. To me it is automated manual box

The downkick still works in 'full manual' mode (stick pushed to the left) on my S4

No Brimma, despite having a bit of split personality I am not going to argue against myself. Again, semantics, in traditional sense of the word it is not full manual despite all modern manuals having safety features as well- it is not possible to down shift into 1st gear from third at speed.

You appear to be confusing the word 'semantics' with quoting things right

*SIGH*

There are no failures with EU produced units

wrong, mine failed - but then that had a lot to do with the dealer leaving a wrench on top of the engine, which then rattled off, hit the drive shaft and then the holed the gearbox casing

Liking the debate discussion...

If it helps the decision, I've mainly had manuals, but do like driving autos and know their limitations. I have a Fabis vRS with the DSG7 dry clutch box and did a few miles in a 2.0 Gold TDI with the wet clutch DSG6. Previous car was a Scirocco 1.4 twincharger, again with DSG (and this was available with a manual box; I chose the DSG).

Why did I choose a DSG7 equipped car? I found the DSG6 (slightly slower operating times, although it is milliseconds) fine in itself but the aforementioned turbo lag from the TDI unit made it very difficult to live with; accelerating to overtake (i.e. on a motorway) met with the gearbox deciding that it would like to change down instead of pull in that gear, so changes down, then the turbo kicks in, and then you're suddenly going faster than you wanted. It maybe the wider spread of gears on the DSG7 or the instant, linear torque of the twincharger engine (as mentioned, its my second) but you don't anywhere near as much hesitation. Having the paddles is a major improvement and should be standard in my book as the gearbox ECU is reactive, not predictive; it doesn't know you're looking at that gap coming up to a traffic island or give way sign, likewise its not linked to the indicators so doesn't know you're about to accelerate.

I've done almost 100k in DSG7 cars and would actively look for my next car to have one as well. I still enjoy driving a manual as well as I'm a bit more in control. My driving pattern is generally urban rush hour, or motorway; DSG (or any auto) is a pleasure in stop/start traffic and when cruising along at 70mph or so, it makes little or no difference. For the odd blast, then the paddles let me keep my hands on the wheel at all times - which I think is a bonus personally.

It's not perfect, but its pretty damned good in my book - on a petrol, anyway...

I believe the CO2 figure differences are because you can't have stop/start on a DSG?