Thats not possible. Jabo knows everything. Google told him

Damn!

I only made the tools the Swedes use, so little do I know compared to Google!

Don't you need any sleep?!?

There you go, I didn't know there were additional layers of encryption and I am glad I learned about it from the man who knows as and I gladly stand corrected, thank you.

If it wasn't for this there'd be no point of being on this forums:). Everything can be cracked, it's just how much effort and time is needed. Security experts in general are not very comfy with the advent of quantum computers ( one firm already sells a commercial product) as they are capable of brute force cracking such codes rather quickly, in published theory at least, as nobody really knows what is going on behind closed doors.

Edited 28 March, 201313 yr by Jabozuma

ooo i love it when a thread leaves its course and turns into a Brimma vs zuma **** swinging competition

Cant you guys do this on every thread ..........oh wait ...you do ....apologies

You know what? I thought I was imagining thinks but it looks like I either have a stalker or a groupie ! Am I celebrity now?!? ROLF

Edited 28 March, 201313 yr by Jabozuma

All the above doesn't alter the fact that your original standpoint was that it should be easy to remap every car via the OBD port

You just move the goalposts to give the impression that you know all about it

Your "I stand corrected" comment is about as meaningful as Vettel saying "I'm sorry" to Mark Webber at the weekend

I would like to point out, that the info was filtered FROM the UK (well, technically Finland and UK) TO Sweden, not the other way round. I happen to know more about this than you do...

Of course you do, that's your job and you do it day in and day out. I am glad you chose to pop in here since I was able to learn something new

One thing wasn't commented on is the whole tuning procedure i.e. doing thourough mechanical checks of the engine WITHOUT using car's ECU and the legal standpoint on hacking car's ECU.

I hope you'd be able to comment on the former but I'm not holding my breath for the comments on the latter . Perhaps somebody else (appart from my stalker/groupie) would care to engage in the discussion?

Of course you do, that's your job and you do it day in and day out. I am glad you chose to pop in here since I was able to learn something new

One thing wasn't commented on is the whole tuning procedure i.e. doing thourough mechanical checks of the engine WITHOUT using car's ECU and the legal standpoint on hacking car's ECU.

I hope you'd be able to comment on the former but I'm not holding my breath for the comments on the latter . Perhaps somebody else (appart from my stalker/groupie) would care to engage in the discussion?

Before starting development on any new project/car/engine, of course the first thing is to understand the mechanical realities we are working with. Especially with the new direct injected engines, where for example the fueling is way more complex task than on port injected engines. Tuning engines is just that, tuning engines. Not just turning values up or down and hoping it works. Getting power from engines is easy. Doing that while maintaining acceptable safety margins and good driveability is the tricky bit.

We are not hacking cars ECUs, so I'm unsure what you mean by that. We are only touching the calibration data, which by it's nature cannot be licensed or copyrighted material. It is merely approved for type certification purposes. Obviously this certificate is no longer valid with modified engine calibration, that is obvious.

Technically if we would hack the program code this could be seen as a breach of an implied license. The only legal case about this matter I know of is the years old Swedish Court judgement on Saab vs Nordic, which Nordic won. Most car manufacturers are not interested on starting legal action against the aftermarket/tuning industry. Car owner does not sign or agree to a license agreement when purchasing a car, and actually, that software code is copyrighted by Bosch atleast for the bootloader/RTOS parts, not the car manufacturer. There is no clear legislation regulating this sort of activity in itself, so the cost/possible benefit ratio for manufacturers is poor. That is why manufacturers are concentrating on detection and slowing down instead of absolute prevention. At the current moment, every available VAG remap is detectable by normal diagnostics equipment, if a dealer wants to find out (and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. All this mumbojumbo about undetectable remaps is 100% bullsh*t).

Mikko, thank you for your reply.

I would like to make it crystal clear that I am not trying to have a go at anybody here, merely poking at an issue which I think might be problematic.

ECU I think is treated by current law as a computer ( http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/a_to_c/computer_misuse_act_1990/#a03 ) and under Computer Misuse Act ( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/18/contents ) unauthorized access to it would be a criminal offense. This has nothing to do with copyrights etc. as you are not ripping the code off from BOSCH and re-sell it as your own. You sell maps i.e. changes to operating values. I hypothesize that the act of accessing ECU without authorisation could be illegal. However, that is irrelevant if as you say nobody is interested in pursuing it .

As for the mechanical part of the tuning process I am sure you are aware of the term "laptop cowboys". Unless your outfit is an exception I do not think anybody does a thorough mechanical check of an engine to be mapped bar ECU error code scan before adding another 30% of output. As you said, adding power is easy albeit complex if you want do it right

As my wife runs a BMW I spend a bit of time over on their forums and there does seem to be a switch by some of the well known BMW tuners towards piggy back ecu's for the new cars. Even well established firms like AC Shnitzer are offering piggy back solutions.

Some of the gains are impressive, 116i from 140bhp to 200bhp but the prices are very high.

Maybe this type of tuning will become more of the norm as ecu's become ever more secure.

Cheers

Lee

Mikko, thank you for your reply.

I would like to make it crystal clear that I am not trying to have a go at anybody here, merely poking at an issue which I think might be problematic.

ECU I think is treated by current law as a computer ( http://www.cps.gov.u...e_act_1990/#a03 ) and under Computer Misuse Act ( http://www.legislati...990/18/contents ) unauthorized access to it would be a criminal offense. This has nothing to do with copyrights etc. as you are not ripping the code off from BOSCH and re-sell it as your own. You sell maps i.e. changes to operating values. I hypothesize that the act of accessing ECU without authorisation could be illegal. However, that is irrelevant if as you say nobody is interested in pursuing it .

As for the mechanical part of the tuning process I am sure you are aware of the term "laptop cowboys". Unless your outfit is an exception I do not think anybody does a thorough mechanical check of an engine to be mapped bar ECU error code scan before adding another 30% of output. As you said, adding power is easy albeit complex if you want do it right

The "computer" in this case is owned by the customer, and the customer authorises us to access his computer. If we would be doing this without customers permission then yes, the Computer Misuse Act would be a concern. But since we have the consent of the customer, this is not a problem.

Computer Misuse Act?. The aim of that act is to protect web servers and databases

The "computer" in this case is owned by the customer, and the customer authorises us to access his computer. If we would be doing this without customers permission then yes, the Computer Misuse Act would be a concern. But since we have the consent of the customer, this is not a problem.

I think I will give it rest as I can see another legal issues discussion looming and I am sick and tired of them on Briskie . In one sentence a customer does not own "the computer", merely a license to use it, but that's my own interpretation.

I think there is something taking shape out there as per logiclee's post

As my wife runs a BMW I spend a bit of time over on their forums and there does seem to be a switch by some of the well known BMW tuners towards piggy back ecu's for the new cars. Even well established firms like AC Shnitzer are offering piggy back solutions.

Some of the gains are impressive, 116i from 140bhp to 200bhp but the prices are very high.

Maybe this type of tuning will become more of the norm as ecu's become ever more secure.

Cheers

Lee

The piggyback units are never ideal and are always a worse option than a good remap. It is never a good idea to modify signals going in and out of the ECU, so that the ECU doesn't know what it actually is doing.

The boxes that work with the modern ECUs are increasingly complex, it requires alot of processing to "lie" to the ECU so that the ECU still believes you. That is why they cost so much. Gone are the days when a tuning box for a diesel was simply a potentiometer to cheat rail pressure signal or fuel temperature signal. The tuning box "dilemma" is, that if ECU is twice as "complex" (I'll just use an arbitrary measure of "complex"), the tuning box that "lies" to that ECU must be perhaps 8 times more complex. So I cannot see there being much future for tuning boxes in the long run. This current ECU generation is at the limit of where they can work at, and I would say some ECUs out there are already beyond the realistic scope of a piggyback device.

My cars ecu belongs to me, I purchased it with the car. If I want Ben to change the software that's up to me.

I could smash the ecu to bits if I wanted to or set it on fire. It's mine.

If i was copying snd distributing the contents of the ecu or altering someones software without there consent then yes there are laws to prevent that.

This is no different to buying a IBM pc and chaning windows 7 to linux. It's not easy and IBM make it difficult but it's not illegal.

I think I will give it rest as I can see another legal issues discussion looming and I am sick and tired of them on Briskie . In one sentence a customer does not own "the computer", merely a license to use it, but that's my own interpretation.

I think there is something taking shape out there as per logiclee's post

That is a very weird interpretation indeed.

I recently bought a washing machine. I believe I own it. I also believe that I own the controller card inside the washing machine. If I want to modify it, I'm allowed to and it is perfectly legal. Or would you disagree? Same argument can be applied to Playstations, Televisions, Camera firmwares, Bios updates for laptops et cetera.

The piggyback units are never ideal and are always a worse option than a good remap. It is never a good idea to modify signals going in and out of the ECU, so that the ECU doesn't know what it actually is doing.

The boxes that work with the modern ECUs are increasingly complex, it requires alot of processing to "lie" to the ECU so that the ECU still believes you. That is why they cost so much. Gone are the days when a tuning box for a diesel was simply a potentiometer to cheat rail pressure signal or fuel temperature signal. The tuning box "dilemma" is, that if ECU is twice as "complex" (I'll just use an arbitrary measure of "complex"), the tuning box that "lies" to that ECU must be perhaps 8 times more complex. So I cannot see there being much future for tuning boxes in the long run. This current ECU generation is at the limit of where they can work at, and I would say some ECUs out there are already beyond the realistic scope of a piggyback device.

The AC unit is £2000.

Exactly and Sony successfully prosecuted people who "owned" their PS3 consoles and modified them... http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-02-08-sony-seeking-account-information-of-fail0verflow-members

I personally think this is ridiculous and you SHOULD be allowed to modify things you own etc but... legal profession can be used be corporate bodies in such cases rather effectively

Exactly and Sony successfully prosecuted people who "owned" their PS3 consoles and modified them... http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-02-08-sony-seeking-account-information-of-fail0verflow-members

I personally think this is ridiculous and you SHOULD be allowed to modify things you own etc but... legal profession can be used be corporate bodies in such cases rather effectively

Sony prosecuted due to people changing software to carry out criminal activities such as hacking account information and to bypass copywrite.

There are companies out there who are remnapping cars publically in legally registered companies. Who actually cares if in the letter of law that its legal. Its been happening for years publicly, its happening now publicly and it will continue to happen publicly. Good times for all.

This thread was about whether or not the 2013 ECUs can be mapped and if they cant how will they get around it.

Exactly and Sony successfully prosecuted people who "owned" their PS3 consoles and modified them... http://www.gamesindu...verflow-members

I personally think this is ridiculous and you SHOULD be allowed to modify things you own etc but... legal profession can be used be corporate bodies in such cases rather effectively

"Successfully prosecuted" is a strong term to use, when in fact nobody went to court in the end. Besides, that intent to sue process wasn't because they did things to their PS3, but released the metldr keys etc. which are very much private and copyrighted material.

As I said, I want to give a rest to the "legal argument" I simply have my doubts as how straight forward the whole really is in the light of recent developments, especially when mapping ECU requires encryption breaking . I'd be very interested to know whether the new ECU's (nov 2012 Fab MK2 vRS still has the "old one" I presume?) could ever be made "mappable" through ODB II port?

This thread was about whether or not the 2013 ECUs can be mapped and if they cant how will they get around it.

Most can, some can't. Hopefully won't be long until the ones with new protection can be done as well

I think that summarises the topic.

As I said, I want to give a rest to the "legal argument" I simply have my doubts as how straight forward the whole really is in the light of recent developments, especially when mapping ECU requires encryption breaking . I'd be very interested to know whether the new ECU's (nov 2012 Fab MK2 vRS still has the "old one" I presume?) could ever be made "mappable" through ODB II port?

ECU mapping does not require encryption breaking. Don't assume things you don't know much about...

And yes, we can make those cars mappable over OBD port.

ECU mapping does not require encryption breaking. Don't assume things you don't know much about...

And yes, we can make those cars mappable over OBD port.

My bad, I got that impression from reading earlier posts...

I would like to try to put a map on my car at some point for different reasons but not by a way of physical opening of the ECU box so good news

My bad, I got that impression from reading earlier posts...

I would like to try to put a map on my car at some point for different reasons but not by a way of physical opening of the ECU box so good news

They still need to be opened once to allow the map to be applied over the OBD port.

Currently there is no known way to break the encryptions. The encryptions are immune to collision attacks and are not practical for brute force attacks.

ECU mapping does not require encryption breaking. Don't assume things you don't know much about...

Mikko - I think you have just encountered the 'mighty enigma'

No matter how hard you try, or how much you know, you will never convince the unconvinceable :(