Can your Insurance find out about your remap

[rwbaldwin]

Insurers also apparently hang out at santa pod and track days noting cars of interest and sharing the info.

They do indeed. A mate of mine works as an insurance accessor. He's also a car nut and takes his own car down the strip. He doesn't need to do anything more than watch the times. If a car does a time 2s faster than stock you do not need to read the ECU (although the companies he works for are often accused of doing so).

[Jabozuma]

I measured my 0-60 times twice so far on two different private roads. First time, on a tarmac surface was as per manufacturer's data 7.53. Second one was on concrete surface and was 6.57. All factory stock on 99 TESCO Momentum with no tyre warming or anything. Both surfaces were dirty.

So you have a second difference... But yes, in general you do need to bench test the ECU to have an idea whether it was messed with or not.

With the amounts of money involved costs of investigations are insignificant where disabling injury or death results.

I simply cannot fathom why would somebody spending ££££ on car mods shy away from spending a few hundreds on fully declared insurance policy???

The only reason I could see is to stick two finger to the system

[Brimma]

Anyone know where I can find a private road with 1/100th timing accuracy?

I'd like to check the Octavia sometime

[rwbaldwin]

& Loss Adjusters use the Internet and look at Forums.

They know which ones to check for the various types of moded cars.

Often a Vehicle examiner or Loss Adjuster is a Car Enthusiast, not some one with lack of knowledge of Cars and car moders.

A Vehicle Examiner or Loss Adjuster will be looking at a vehicle much closer in the event of a fatality or life changing injuries.

They are going to check very closely if they wish.

If you just want insurance for a policy to get on the road, then not Declaring Modifications gets you that,

and potentially paying out for the rest of your life from Compensation.

Declared mods and 'Agreed Values' are not exactly going to cost a fortune with Specialist Insurance Companies.

If the Broker selling a Policy does not want to know in Detail about anything changed from Standard then be aware IMO.

george

+1

We have a written off Octy VRS Mk2 on a 62 plate here waiting to be taken away. I hope it's not owned by a Brisky member. The ECU has already been removed by the accessor. It was brought here along with a 12 plate Merc C250 and an older Ford Focus. I don't know anything about the accident but it's clear that there was a head on between the Octy and the Merc, but no fatalities.

That's going to be a big claim. Most insurers have their own 'ECU Labs' or access to independent ones and I assume that's where the ECU will end up. It's not common for the ECU to be taken - I've only seen it happen once before. I have seen accessors plug in on several occasions.

[Moist Von Lipwig]

I understand that an OEM garage can read the ecu with their system and can tell if the system has been changed but given the security on these devices and the difficulties tuners are having in accessing the ecus can the insurers really use their own labs or do they have to out source the newer stuff to a proper dealership? Also how do they (insurers) tell the difference between different stock ecus some of which may have had updates if using their own labs? Or is the security only relevant for making changes not reading?

As to the original question I fully agree with several of the answers already given saying lowish probability but very high consequences so for me I have everything declared. Actually didn't make a vast difference, biggest issue was the RARB which I think the dippy bird on the phone assumed was a roll cage and so initially stated they couldn't cover me until I had an explanatory word with the supervisor!

[rwbaldwin]

I understand that an OEM garage can read the ecu with their system and can tell if the system has been changed but given the security on these devices and the difficulties tuners are having in accessing the ecus can the insurers really use their own labs or do they have to out source the newer stuff to a proper dealership? Also how do they (insurers) tell the difference between different stock ecus some of which may have had updates if using their own labs? Or is the security only relevant for making changes not reading?

As to the original question I fully agree with several of the answers already given saying lowish probability but very high consequences so for me I have everything declared. Actually didn't make a vast difference, biggest issue was the RARB which I think the dippy bird on the phone assumed was a roll cage and so initially stated they couldn't cover me until I had an explanatory word with the supervisor!

My understanding is that 'ECU Labs' have the same access to ECUs as mappers. AFAIK, they don't have any apecial access to ECUs (not given the keys). As I said in an earlier post, manufacturers do assist insurers in detecting ECU changes and I am led to believe that VAG provides checksum and 'fingerprint' data. Whilst creating a map is difficult and may involve changing 30-100+ maps. Detecting a map is 'simple' and only involves the examination of one or a handful of maps. Give an ECU to Ben or any of the other mapping companies and they can tell you if the car has been mapped in seconds.

[Jabozuma]

Some find it easy some find it difficult to access, depends who is doing it

I do not know but I suspect that insurers would have no problems in cooperating with manufacturers in this instance and having the OEM kit to access ECU's

[Kiwibacon]

+1

We have a written off Octy VRS Mk2 on a 62 plate here waiting to be taken away. I hope it's not owned by a Brisky member. The ECU has already been removed by the accessor. It was brought here along with a 12 plate Merc C250 and an older Ford Focus. I don't know anything about the accident but it's clear that there was a head on between the Octy and the Merc, but no fatalities.

That's going to be a big claim. Most insurers have their own 'ECU Labs' or access to independent ones and I assume that's where the ECU will end up. It's not common for the ECU to be taken - I've only seen it happen once before. I have seen accessors plug in on several occasions.

Cops here pulled the ECU's from a car after a crash a few years back. But not for any maps. It was speed before impact they wanted. Which they got and presented in court. Maps are irrelevant in a head on. Bigger rules have been broken.

[rwbaldwin]

Cops here pulled the ECU's from a car after a crash a few years back. But not for any maps. It was speed before impact they wanted. Which they got and presented in court. Maps are irrelevant in a head on. Bigger rules have been broken.

The Police didn't take the cars, which is how I know there were no fatalities, so I am assuming this is purely an insurance matter. With three cars involved, it is possible that the Ford Focus driver was at fault - I didn't see the crash scene.

[Kiwibacon]

The Police didn't take the cars, which is how I know there were no fatalities, so I am assuming this is purely an insurance matter. With three cars involved, it is possible that the Ford Focus driver was at fault - I didn't see the crash scene.

The police didn't take the cars in this one either. Just the ECU's (plural, the airbag ECU was the one they finally got the right data from). IIRC the data showed his closing speed was closer to the imperial ton than the legal metric ton.

Game, set, match.

It was in the newspaper as he put up a legal challenge to try and prevent the police taking parts and data from the car. He failed.

If your example was just an insurance matter, then why are the police involved? Wouldn't that be a civil matter between the driver and their insurance company?

[rwbaldwin]

The police didn't take the cars in this one either. Just the ECU's (plural, the airbag ECU was the one they finally got the right data from). IIRC the data showed his closing speed was closer to the imperial ton than the legal metric ton.

Game, set, match.

It was in the newspaper as he put up a legal challenge to try and prevent the police taking parts and data from the car. He failed.

If your example was just an insurance matter, then why are the police involved? Wouldn't that be a civil matter between the driver and their insurance company?

I've never known the Police take an ECU. If there's a fatality (or likely to be) they often recover the cars to a Police compound. In other cases they may only take statements, breathalyze the drivers, check documents (or electronic equivalents), manage the traffic and reopen the road. There may well be prosecutions but taking (or reading) an ECU is not something they do.

The insurance company will examine the car/ECU to ensure that there are no undeclared maps/modification. The sole purpose of this is to avoid paying out. Our insurance systems/policies and how claims are handled often seem alien (or downright mad) to non-UK drivers.

[Kiwibacon]

The insurance company will examine the car/ECU to ensure that there are no undeclared maps/modification.

This has been repeated many times in this thread and others. But we don't yet have any proof or even anecdotal evidence of it occuring.

[rwbaldwin]

This has been repeated many times in this thread and others. But we don't yet have any proof or even anecdotal evidence of it occuring.

I can help with this one. At the end of last year, we had a car awaiting about £5k in repairs. We just needed insurance company approval. I know it was declined due to undeclared modifications (IIRC, just remap and upgraded brake calipers). I'm guessing if it hadn't been for the calipers, they wouldn't have checked for a remap.

[Kiwibacon]

I can help with this one. At the end of last year, we had a car awaiting about £5k in repairs. We just needed insurance company approval. I know it was declined due to undeclared modifications (IIRC, just remap and upgraded brake calipers). I'm guessing if it hadn't been for the calipers, they wouldn't have checked for a remap.

In that situation, wouldn't the insurance company bounce them on the brakes anyway?

[KenONeill]

Anyone know where I can find a private road with 1/100th timing accuracy?

I'd like to check the Octavia sometime

There's one near Little Poddington (yes really), another near Stratford upon Avon, one near Crail in Fife, one at the Hockenheimring....

[Jabozuma]

My office is on a privately owned land with private roads and I use g-tac iPhone app. not accurate as any pro timing kit but accurate enough for me (also falls in line with manufacturer's data) and easily comparable between different users in different locations etc. Nice app, gives acceleration graphs

[mpgtuning]

The simple answer is YES an insurance company can find out but there are a few potential issues that make it highly unlikely…

It is always advisable to notify your insurers (in my case I had to change insurers because my original company would insure my car at all with a remap or believe it or not company graphics)

My new insurer not only covered my remap and graphics but also saved me just over £100 p.a. so that was a sweet bonus and I never need to worry about an insurance rejection.

Now The Question Remains – Would they even check for a remap?

1. Not all ECU’s can be read via the OBD port and require ecu removal and bench programming.
2. The insurance company would not have a wide range of tools, software or indeed technical knowledge to test the cars themselves.
3. Insurance companies would need to pay 3rd reputable companies to do it on their behalf.
3. Paying companies to test ecu’s could be prohibitively high as I suspect (if they decided to test every vehicle involved in a crash)
4. Depending on the condition of the crashed vehicle, location and ecu type the logistics could be an issue.
5. In the 13 years, I have been remapping I have never heard of an insurance company testing for remaps.
6. That does not mean they wouldn’t and it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t declare it.

In my personal opinion, it’s not a remap that adds extra danger, its is the driver of the car and how they use it.

If it is for racing around the streets then, of course, there is a much higher risk of accidents, injury and deaths and they seem to affect the innocent more than the idiot racing.

Most of my customer group tend to be more mature drivers who have given up racing around trying to impress others with dyno printouts, and want better mid-range performance and improved MPG.

[XLBaconDoubleCheese]

On 15/11/2018 at 14:38, mpgtuning said:

The simple answer is YES an insurance company can find out but there are a few potential issues that make it highly unlikely…

It is always advisable to notify your insurers (in my case I had to change insurers because my original company would insure my car at all with a remap or believe it or not company graphics)

My new insurer not only covered my remap and graphics but also saved me just over £100 p.a. so that was a sweet bonus and I never need to worry about an insurance rejection.

Now The Question Remains – Would they even check for a remap?

1. Not all ECU’s can be read via the OBD port and require ecu removal and bench programming.
2. The insurance company would not have a wide range of tools, software or indeed technical knowledge to test the cars themselves.
3. Insurance companies would need to pay 3rd reputable companies to do it on their behalf.
3. Paying companies to test ecu’s could be prohibitively high as I suspect (if they decided to test every vehicle involved in a crash)
4. Depending on the condition of the crashed vehicle, location and ecu type the logistics could be an issue.
5. In the 13 years, I have been remapping I have never heard of an insurance company testing for remaps.
6. That does not mean they wouldn’t and it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t declare it.

In my personal opinion, it’s not a remap that adds extra danger, its is the driver of the car and how they use it.

If it is for racing around the streets then, of course, there is a much higher risk of accidents, injury and deaths and they seem to affect the innocent more than the idiot racing.

Most of my customer group tend to be more mature drivers who have given up racing around trying to impress others with dyno printouts, and want better mid-range performance and improved MPG.

 

Lots of if's, buts and maybes in there. 

 

When it comes down to it, it seems ridiculous to me to risk thousands of quids worth of motor for the sake of an extra £50 on the insurance premium. A decent map will cost many times that, so just factor it into the costs of the remap, same goes for any modification. 

[Redboy]

It's not worth hiding modifications from your insurers.  Last year with my first remap it cost me about £100 extra as I went with a specialist broker, after several companies refused to take the business. Today I spent 10 minutes on a well-known insurance comparison site and found lots of much cheaper quotes from well-known brand names, which undercut my specialist broker's renewal quote by 50%. This included declaring that the car was chipped with an increase of  > 25% extra bhp over its original rating. 

[Aspman]

If you have m aminor bump then no the insurer will not bother to pay to have the car mapping checked.

If you have a skid on ice and write the car off then no the insurer will not bother to pay to have the car mapping checked.

If you havea  speed related accident then maybe they might investigate futher particularly if criminal charges are involved.

If you have an accident where there were injuries and where the insurer may be required to pay out very large sums you can bet they'll jump through every hoop to invalidate your insurance.

 

You have to consider the cost/benefit for the insurance company here.

[Ootohere]

@mpgtuning

I have heard of and seen with my own eyes Accident Inspectors, Loss Adjusters, Police Examiners and Master Techs removing ECU's to take to be Professionally Examined.

I know of owners that have then withdrawn Insurance Claims and Warranty claims after the results of the examinations have been carried out.

I am surprised that anyone that has been remapping for 13 years has never heard of it.

Edited 19 November, 2018 by Offski

[DAN@ADRIAN FLUX]

Hi,

If anyone needs any help with insurance for a re-map then please feel free to drop me a line.

Regards,

Dan.