Looking Out For Each Other...........

[mac11irl]

I believe the bike saw the car but I also believe the assumption by David that it

had also seen him was his undoing.

this happens with car and car too... Eg fog... The number of people who drive without lighting up is crazy. "shur i can see grand why do i need my ligh-" bang... Being able to see and being visible aint the same thing.

[moley]

The poor driver had 6 seconds to see him coming.

I think the driver probably had 2-3 seconds. From watching the video it's about 4 seconds from when the bike passes the last car and the impact, he passes that car about 200 yds from the junction. Even if the driver saw him and misjudged his speed he had next to no time to react. The driver didn't intentionally drive across the road in front of the biker, but he will / she will have to live with it for a long time.

[meta55b]

I don't think the car driver should have been charged. The biker was doing 97mph in a 60 zone. People keep saying they didn't "see" the biker or just wasn't paying attention. To be doing 37mph ish over the limit when you are surrounded by other road users is asking for trouble, if he was doing the speed limit he would never have been on that part of the road at that time. So the bikers actions caused the reactions.

[samj2013]

It's all too easy for discussions like this to become Car VS Bike and that's not

my aim. As per the title. We need to look out for each other.

I believe the bike saw the car but I also believe the assumption by David that it

had also seen him was his undoing.   

I always tend to assume that people haven't seen me - I've seen a lot of people do a lot of daft stuff in the 10 months I've had a license. An extra couple of seconds before making a manoeuvre or easing off the accelerator/slight brake check, just to make sure i KNOW people have seen me, rather than just assuming they have. I think it probably goes a long way in making sure I stay out of trouble, and has done so on at least a few occasions! A lot of people seem to drive around with their eyes closed.

 

I always wanted a motorbike, I still do, it would be silly fun to mess about on, but I think the potential for it all to go horribly wrong is too much for me to ever actually buy one, mostly because of other people rather than myself, I'm the first to know when I'm at my limit, the problem is just others, as people have said.

Edited 5 September, 2014 by samj2013

[fabiamk2SE]

Having known a number of people who have died or ended up disabled for the rest of their lives due to accidents where they were on a motorbike, the one main truth is that when someone does something stupid it's usually the biker who comes off worse.

That's why I'll never ride a bike.

There are too many stupid people on the roads.

I dont blame you mate. Its not a safe game. Driving a gtr at speed is pretty safe compared.

I was talking to my mate with a gtr earlier about this video. 'Why didnt he try and swerve?' He said.

Iv ridden bikes for about 4 or 5 years now. Iv currently got a vfr 800. I explained to him tonight that its just not as simple as 'swerving'. You cant just swerve on a motorbike at 100mph, its just not that easy.

The road presents is a lot less and you have to ride defensively at all times (i personally think thst biker went wrong when he overtook that car at 97mph and proceeded to that junction. If it was me, is of hung back, slowed down and used thst red car as protection and to help the black car notice, then overtaken it after the junction)

Fact is though. I get my thrills through speed. In general cars just dont do it for me really, apart from something do good i cant afford it haha.

My bike wouldnt be far behind a gtr if it had a decent rider on.

Its quick, comfy, handles well and will take both touring and track days in its stride.

I cant afford a gtr by a long way (i wish i could haha) but the bike cost me £3.5k (£10500 new) and will deliver all the fun and speed i require.

The risk, we just have to take that in our stride, react accordingly and ride defensively.

The sense of freedom? Meh, you cant replace that! Haha.

[seboni121]

The poor driver had 6 seconds to see him coming Seb, & the poor driver is still here to tell the tale. 

A life has been lost here and if BOTH parties had handled things differently then maybe it would have 

never happened. 

Don't get me wrong he was going way too fast, but the poor car driver was crossing a lane of live traffic

and should have been looking more carefully. The road was arrow straight and the bike would have

had lights on and was travelling downhill.

You can't say the car driver wasn't also equally negligent in this accident.The courts seem to agree.

The family don't strike me as the type to want someone else to be punished for their sons death, I see

no scapegoat here, just excuses being made for the car driver looking but not seeing.

Don't take it the wrong way grrrrr yes the driver of the car was at fault for crossing the road when there was a vehicle coming the other way but in reality the unfortunate biker was doing nearly 100 mph in a 60 , the driver of the vehicle was jus ambling along at a safe speed, the rider was not in full control of his bike ie one handed at that speed also , I agree there was blame on both sides here but majorly on the poor rider, I've not ridden for years and have no intention of getting back on its far to dangerous now as people driving cars have their heads in their arses most of the time

[mac11irl]

 people driving cars have their heads in their arses most of the time

 

Fact....

[Jonny5ive]

people driving cars have their heads in their arses most of the time

I've refrained from posting thus far, but have to disagree with this statement, as much as I disagree with statements that all bikers have a death wish and mis-behave on the road.

The simple facts as I see them. Biker clearly had contempt for the rules of the road. Car driver for whatever reason didn't see the biker. Were the lights working on the bike, was the driver blinded by low sunlight?

I suspect we'll never know. The end result, sadly, is one dead biker, and a convicted driver with a 'life sentence' all of their own.

The principle here for me is about further education for both bikers and drivers beyond the regular respective tests. IAM, RosPA and the like work very hard to educate and enlighten both camps. Things on both sides of the fence will only improve with training, tolerance and a mindset change.

JMTPW

[Titanium_Man]

Playing the blame game just doesn't work in this situation for me.

The point of this thread is to highlight the dangers for both biker and car driver alike, regardless of their perception of the other.

Using this thread to vilify one or the other is a bit below the belt for me.

[Toxicvrs]

Playing the blame game just doesn't work in this situation for me.

The point of this thread is to highlight the dangers for both biker and car driver alike, regardless of their perception of the other.

Using this thread to vilify one or the other is a bit below the belt for me.

This

[grr666]

Looks like the car driver who wasn't at fault turned a bit soon though eh? 

It seems like they cut the corner to me. But hey, the biker was going too fast so he deserved it right?

Maybe the car driver wasn't as without fault as some people are making out. 

If they had driven right to the end of the stacker lane and stopped and evaluated the oncoming

traffic (which is why they paint the box on the road in the first place) the bike would have passed before

the turn was attempted. Looks like the biker wasn't the only one in a hurry eh? 

God forbid the car should have to stop before turning right. 

Just saying.

[fabiamk2SE]

Looks like the car driver who wasn't at fault turned a bit soon though eh?

It seems like they cut the corner to me. But hey, the biker was going too fast so he deserved it right?

Maybe the car driver wasn't as without fault as some people are making out.

If they had driven right to the end of the stacker lane and stopped and evaluated the oncoming

traffic (which is why they paint the box on the road in the first place) the bike would have passed before

the turn was attempted. Looks like the biker wasn't the only one in a hurry eh?

God forbid the car should have to stop before turning right.

Just saying.

Never said it was just the bike, or it was just the car. It was a contribution of both IMO.

Approaching a junction at 97mph is just stupid. Even if its an empty road, let alone seeing a car moving across into the filter lane.

Both bad driving and bad riding IMO.

[BrownBarge]

The video was released to highlight the danger of the car driver and the bike rider.

[Paul007]

Exactly. The biker is going too fast and the car driver hasn't looked far enough down the road. Both as bad. 

[skinnyman]

I had a friend die three weeks ago in very similar circumstances.  Watching this wasn't easy as it brought back all the initial emotions when we all heard the news. 

 

It seems wrong to speak ill of the dead as it won't change anything but in this case and that of the person I knew, both parties were at fault in some way. As human beings we all make errors of judgement.  I don't think any of us can claim to have never made a mistake on the road during our driving/riding careers.  Unfortunately for my friend and David in the clip, two people made simultaneous mistakes and the end result was exactly the same.  Devastated lives on both sides and families that will never be the same again.

 

If it calms some people down then it's a good thing.  Trouble is, since the accident I've seen a number of bikers on the A64 taking chances, mainly involving inappropriate speed in places that us locals would suggest aren't the best places to do so.  I've also seen some pretty stupid drivers heading back from the coast to the west of the county on the same road making ill judged overtakes in underpowered cars into oncoming traffic.  People are flawed - I count myself in this too - and as long as we have access to machinery that propels us along at unnatural velocities we will have accidents.

[bealine]

http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/local/2014/09/03/alachua-sheriff--waldo--police/15049073/

 

Playing the blame game just doesn't work in this situation for me.

The point of this thread is to highlight the dangers for both biker and car driver alike, regardless of their perception of the other.

Using this thread to vilify one or the other is a bit below the belt for me.

.....and that's why I entitled this discussion "Looking Out For Each Other."   The lad is dead and all the blame apportionment in the world isn't going to bring him back!   The whole point of his mum allowing the police to release his helmet-cam video is to boost awareness for ALL road users to take extra care, be aware of their surroundings and drive/ride at a prudent speed taking heed of the conditions prevailing at the time.

If it hadn't been a car turning up ahead, it could just as easily have been a child's football kicked over the hedge, a dog running across the road, a patch of wet and slippery cow clat or a small spillage of gravel from a tipper truck across the carriageway - "tonning up" on a country road is all very well until something goes wrong and then a biker has little chance of survival.

I admire the honesty of those who admiot they enjoy biking becaues of the thrill of speed out in the open air and the sense of freedom it brings.   That would also encourage me to acquire two wheels, but I have seen too many deaths and serious casualties for that ever to happen.   Good luck to those who do enjoy biking though - I will be doubly watching out for you from now on and trust you guys to help me by riding sensibly and being absolutely certain I have seen you before you do anything risky!

No blame culture - "Let's Look Out For Each Other!"  

 

[Dr Zoidberg]

I don't think the car driver should have been charged. The biker was doing 97mph in a 60 zone. People keep saying they didn't "see" the biker or just wasn't paying attention. To be doing 37mph ish over the limit when you are surrounded by other road users is asking for trouble, if he was doing the speed limit he would never have been on that part of the road at that time. So the bikers actions caused the reactions.

 

The car driver admitted that he didn't see either the oncoming bike, or the car that was just behind it that was travelling at the speed limit. Not misjudged the speed, but didn't see. At All.

 

That's why they were charged, and quite rightly too.

[SEVrs]

I can't believe some of the comments on this thread.  It was not speed that caused the accident.  Speed was a contributing factor.  The cause of the accident was the car pulling across the path of the biker, and speed was a factor in as much as if the biker had been travelling at a speed more in keeping with the hazards ahead of him, he may (and here I do mean "may") have survived.  I have seen the aftermath of a car pulling across a biker doing 30mph in similar circumstances. That biker ended up in hospital badly injured through no fault of his own.  That biker was me, 25 years ago.  I was travelling at a reasonable speed for the road conditions and traffic.  I didn't stand a chance and neither did this guy.   In my case, I almost wrote off the side of an estate car and went over the top of it.  I had nowhere to go and I had seen the driver waiting to pull across and they had seen me.  I slowed down and to this day I cannot fathom why the woman driving did what she did.  That ended up in court and I won substantial damages.  Had this biker been within the speed limit, the outcome may have been just the same or he may have been thrown clear and survived.  It is a tragic accident and a young chap lost his life...no-one deserves that.   I do believe that the police did right in prosecuting the car driver.  The biker had obviously contributing liability for the accident because he failed to see the danger or at least to react to it in time but the fact remains that the car driver who MUST have seen the biker approach pulled across his path and in doing so ended a life prematurely.   If they didn't see the biker, then they must have been either blind or simply not looking.  Either way they don't deserve to be on the road.  A licence is a privilege NOT a right and too many people forget this.

 

The end result, sadly, in all these cases is that there is only one real loser and that's the biker, no-matter who is at fault.  I still ride several bikes, including a powerful sportsbike and I have to admit that driving standards generally, are appalling.  I look out for idiots on the road every time I go out (you need eyes in the back of your head) and am rarely disappointed.  I have lost count of the number of times car drivers have pulled out in front of me, cut me up as if I wasn't there and drive on as if nothing happened.  I am ready for it (mostly) because I ride defensively because experience tells me I'd end up in a wooden overcoat if I didn't.  You have to pick the time and the place to enjoy the capabilities of a sportsbike, but for most part you need to ride defensively.  

 

I agree with the OP.  Let's "Look out for each other" because life is way too precious to ever become complacent behind the wheel of a car or when riding a bike

[bealine]

 

I agree with the OP.  Let's "Look out for each other" because life is way too precious to ever become complacent behind the wheel of a car or when riding a bike

 

Life is too short to become complacent!   It is also too short to lose one's temper behind the wheel - we expect to be forgiven when we make a mistake on the road, let's also learn to forgive the rider/driver who makes a mistake too and cheerfully ease up and let them get themselves out of trouble!

This poor lad's death should serve as a wake up call to all of us!

[grr666]

Never said it was just the bike, or it was just the car. It was a contribution of both IMO.

 

Every post I've made on this topic has also said as much, the biker was going too fast. 

But the car driver had as much responsibility for the death too. Certainly not the innocent

scapegoat victim that some are trying to paint them as, and I'm sure the courts looked at the

footage frame by frame too, and came to the same conclusion. Speeding or not they SHOULD

have seen the bike and SHOULDN'T have tried to nip in front of it.

 

The earlier post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, but the more I read about this across a few

different forums the more I see blame aimed at the biker. Yet when I read about it on a bike specific forum

the bikers (and like I have all said the way through this thread) have acknowledged that the rider was going

way too fast and that also contributed greatly to the crash. It just seems like (and take a look at facebook if

you really want to see some anti biker sentiment) that the majority of folk see no wrong in what the car did.

And I disagree,  even in this thread I've read that the car driver was not to blame

and should have got away with it. What? Got away with ending a life due to not paying attention?

They have to be held responsible somehow, the other guy has already paid the ultimate price! 

 

The thing that makes me laugh is that I see plenty of cars being driven at similar speeds on those type of

roads. I had one in a BMW trying to push me down a NSL B road today even though I was doing the full 60,

it wasn't enough for matey boy and he was three feet from my back wheel and I had my wife on the back. 

I pulled over into a bus stop as soon as I could because he was being erratic and pushy and as soon as

I indicated left to pull into the bus stop he floored it and came by less than a foot

from the side of the bike and roared off down the road. Cars also speed not just bikes!

And what's more we've all done it. So all this poor driver was a scapegoat attitude is simply wrong.

50% of the blame should lay with them and since they didn't die, then a different punishment

has to teach them a lesson. David learned his the hardest way.  

 

 

I don't think the car driver should have been charged. 

 

 

I do, they clearly cut the corner, and as this still image shows they had a clear view of the bike yet somehow 

didn't see it. If they had driven to the end of the stacker lane the bike would have passed by before the

turn had even begun. They were trying to nip in front of the bike. The camera doesn't lie. 

They have a smashed car and a few extra quid on their premium each year, but you should see the other bloke.

They should have to live with what they've done I'm afraid. I wasn't aware that drivers are not obliged to look out

for or give way to speeding traffic.I guess the short version is two wrongs don't make a right. 

And there were definitely two wrongs here. 

 

 

is asking for trouble...

 

^^^ That's not very nice but I've seen far more hateful stuff posted all over the shop toward the rider.

But this comment illustrates the common sentiment over this video which has gone viral, across all sorts of forums.

eg. It was entirely the bikers fault because he was going fast and he somehow deserved to die for it.

I went to a guys house today to buy a jacket for my wife and without prompting he started chatting about

it, it's been in the national press, on the BBC and every motor vehicle based forum seems to be talking about it.  

It's good that it brings about discussion, but the video will only be helpful if car drivers and bike riders can see 

the faults on both sides. Otherwise I fear it will become destructive and worsen driver/biker relations not increase

awareness as was the intention of the family who released it. 

 

 

 

[bealine]

I heard about this from my Mum earlier (who's always worrying about me being on a bike I might add), and didn't want to watch it to be honest. I've just watched it and I found it horrible to view.

 

 

I am sorry you had to watch it.   If it's any consolation, I found it horrible too.   Then again, that's the whole point - the shock factor of the live camera at the moment of impact should serve to make us all more aware, more careful and "looking out for each other!"   Enjoy your bike, but please don't take unnecessary risks for your poor mum's sake!   To be honest, that's why I never got a bike - my mum was a nursing sister in the 60's and had nightmares over all the Speedway accidents she had to deal with at weekends!   Every time I mentioned I might get a bike, she used to cry fit to break my heart - I just couldn't do it to her!

[Toxicvrs]

What he said ^^^^ (Grr666)

Edited 6 September, 2014 by Toxicvrs

[bealine]

Like I said, the whole point of David's mum releasing the video is for us to learn from it and become better riders/drivers - it's far too late for the blame game.    I remember when learning to drive HGV's in the Army my old instructor saying "In surprisingly few accidents is only one driver to blame.   Everyone involved in an accident usually each shares some of the responsibility!"   The police driving school at Hendon used to believe this too and, for that reason, if a police car had an accident, the driver was always suspended until the full facts were established.

Fully agree with grr666 that car drivers also speed and take unnecessary risks - tailgating at speed being the most stupid of the lot!

From the video, we can deduce certain elements but have to leave it to the police accident investigators and the courts to make the final decisions - no speculation in the world will bring David back!

The car vs bike argument has to stop - there's no place for antagonism, we both have equal rights to share the roads!   Let's shake hands on it!
 

[grr666]

[fabdavrav]

Car driver nipped across to just get in before the biker (basically couldn't be bothered waiting for the bike to go past)..............

 

 

...................unfortunately the driver couldn't comprehend the stupid speed the biker was doing................

 

Both idiots.....................

 

 

The only way to drive/ride is "defensive driving"..............................treat every other road user as a idiot....................if they are indicating right, they might turn left...........etc.................create a safety bubble around you................

 

 

 

and NO I am not a slow driver........................fast & progressive......................& so far only one accident in 20yrs.................touch wood..............