Vrs engine death.

[newbie69]

I honestly don't know if they're altering the map for every different country. In any case, those logs were shocking no matter the fuel, temps etc. Of course that's past and it may not have to do anything with the OP's failure, not until we see what was going on inside his engine.

 

A more general comment while we're talking about tuning companies is that admittedly, some of the biggest names never got it right with this engine. Even today, they've settled for a light stage 1 and I don't think much else is going on beyond that. Whereas others have been able to make huge improvement without any of the usual issues.

Edited 25 March, 2015 by newbie69

[Richf]

If the map was that bad I dont see how the OP could have done 6k on it , if it was mapped lean enough to melt a piston that would have happened soon after it was mapped.

[newbie69]

double post

Edited 25 March, 2015 by newbie69

[newbie69]

If the map was that bad I dont see how the OP could have done 6k on it , if it was mapped lean enough to melt a piston that would have happened soon after it was mapped.

 

"Soon" and "that bad" are rather relative terms no? It obviously can't go bang from the 1st km you do on it. I've no idea how the OP used to drive and as I said earlier it may have nothing to do with it. I was actually telling a friend that I was impressed to read that an APR mapped vRS failed in the same way as REVO cars have and he pointed me to that issue on Sciroccos.

 

But then we would agree that Skoda is to blame for this failure? Hmm...   :p

[Ootohere]

The rather important elephant in the room are the engines built by Volkswagen 2009-2012,

then the Engines supplied as replacements.

 

The first failures in the Seat & Skoda had a rebuild at a Dealership,

then a Short Unit was what they supplied,  then they supplied a Complete Base Engine, CAVE / CAD.

 

Now the CAVE engine might have had upgraded parts before the CTHE was introduced, and Breather Pipe / Valve mods.

 

But Factory New Engines in cars failed before 24,000 miles Standard, and Mapped ones failed,

so,

If the Replacement Engine is Supplied and even brand new & the current CAVE, or a CAVE after 2013 they built,

it can Fail as Standard, and some have had 2 fail, 

and they can fail remapped just the same.

 

CTHE Engines failed in 2012, 2013 & newer ones have failed, and they are standard new engines, not Remapped.

 

The OP needs to know what Engine they supplied, and was fitted, and he posted that was being checked.

 

Anyone getting a Replacement Engine should know its Origins,

or just have a Warranty, keep it valid and enjoy the car.

[newbie69]

The rather important elephant in the room are the engines built by Volkswagen 2009-2012,

then the Engines supplied as replacements.

 

The first failures in the Seat & Skoda had a rebuild at a Dealership,

then a Short Unit was what they supplied,  then they supplied a Complete Base Engine, CAVE / CAD.

 

Now the CAVE engine might have had upgraded parts before the CTHE was introduced, and Breather Pipe / Valve mods.

 

But Factory New Engines in cars failed before 24,000 miles Standard, and Mapped ones failed,

so,

If the Replacement Engine is Supplied and even brand new & the current CAVE, or a CAVE after 2013 they built,

it can Fail as Standard, and some have had 2 fail, 

and they can fail remapped just the same.

 

CTHE Engines failed in 2012, 2013 & newer ones have failed, and they are standard new engines, not Remapped.

 

The OP needs to know what Engine they supplied, and was fitted, and he posted that was being checked.

 

Anyone getting a Replacement Engine should know its Origins,

or just have a Warranty, keep it valid and enjoy the car.

 

You know I agree on all of that George. But since it's also a mapped car we're expected to touch on that as well I think. Unless we were able to tell for sure what the cause was, which we aren't.

[Ootohere]

Have a look at the 'only reply please if you have had an engine replaced', 

 

I know how many replacement engines have failed,

that was standard replacements left standard ones.

 

Anyway,

even a Original, Extended, Gesture or Aftermarket Warranty is Void when you Change the Engine Management (remap)

from the Factory / Manufacturers Spec.

 

PS we do know the cause.

Various and many, and from Components, Materials, Design & Quality Control.

Engine Management & Consumables like Spark Plugs failing.

 

Major Issue, Inlet Manifold & Super & Turbo cooking the 2nd Cylinder from the Left, and Plug, Coil & Valve Failure sometimes.

http://revotechnik.com/support/technical/14tsi-twincharger-engine-issues

Edited 25 March, 2015 by goneoffSKi

[Richf]

"Soon" and "that bad" are rather relative terms no? It obviously can't go bang from the 1st km you do on it. I've no idea how the OP used to drive and as I said earlier it may have nothing to do with it. I was actually telling a friend that I was impressed to read that an APR mapped vRS failed in the same way as REVO cars have and he pointed me to that issue on Sciroccos.

 

But then we would agree that Skoda is to blame for this failure? Hmm...   :p

Absolutely, It could go pop the first time you hit full boost.

 

You'd need an engineers report to get the full reason why but in my opinion the map is unlikely to be to blame

[Ootohere]

The MAP is highly likely to have assisted the NGK 7 in failing and the Cylinder / Valves condition with a possible Ignition coil failing.

 

& Quicker than happened with several hundred standard engines running OEM spark plugs.

That is the major issue with the Engine we are talking here so often about.

If 7 or 8 in every 10 of the 1,800 Original and replacement engines are still going OK, then that is a Blessing.

 

VW might have to answer soon in Court to the exact failure rate of the engines.

[Richf]

Can you explain why a map would cause a coil to fail?

[Ootohere]

The failing spark plug causes the Coil to fail,  heat causes the coil to fail.

 

The life of the NGK7 has not been good in the Twinchargers,

as shown by how poor the life of the NGK7 has been with a few Briskoda members experiences.

 

?

How many miles have you covered with your vRS, and have the plugs ever been looked at?

[Richf]

The failing spark plug causes the Coil to fail,  heat causes the coil to fail.

 

The life of the NGK7 has not been good in the Twinchargers,

as shown by how poor the life of the NGK7 has been with a few Briskoda members experiences.

 

?

How many miles have you covered with your vRS, and have the plugs ever been looked at?

13k , and no

[Ootohere]

http://aa1car.com/library/ignition_coils.htm

[Richf]

Tenuous at best blaming the map for a spark plug failure, especially as you say they fail on standard cars 

[Ootohere]

You have me confused now, i never blamed the remap.    Just saying the MAP invalidates a Warranty unless you buy a Warranty for Modified engines.

 So any tenous link is not from me.

 

The point i am making is that if a Spark Plug has failed at under 7,000 miles and it is a NGK7 it is not unusual on a Remapped Engine.

a Twincharger REmapped engine.

 

They do not fail at such a low mileage on a Standard engine.

 

But Standard OEM PLugs have failed at quite low miles on Standard Engines, and CAVE & CTHE Standard maps.

[newbie69]

Tenuous at best blaming the map for a spark plug failure, especially as you say they fail on standard cars 

 

Not all fail as standard to begin with. So which do and which don't and why you figure it out. Regarding the map an overly lean map will cause extreme EGT and consequently burn plugs, melt pistons etc the way I see it. The people that were logging their cars back on 2011 and were seeing alarmingly high values were doing so while their cars worked fine they didn't go boom the first time they floored it. And still, APR had to push out an update to correct this so no reason to believe if it doesn't go pop in the first km all is good. Or, that very same map may get away on the better engines but cause weaker ones (for example ones with poor squirters? oil burners) to fail. Not so easy to make a diagnosis, at least for me, on a car I don't know and of which I haven't got the slightest technical info/data of what is/was happening inside. 

[Ootohere]

I have over 22,000 miles covered with the APR Stage 1, and now have in the 3rd set of spark plugs.

Good ones obviously, and they were changed as a preventative measure, not because they needed to be.

They could go in another engine, just i would not put them into a twincharger after i had removed them.

[newbie69]

The guy I quoted on another thread with a melt piston, had a REVO Stage 1 on since 2011 and booting it regularly. How good / how bad / low lean / how rich / for how long  I think it's a combination of all those factors. I personally don't worry so much about mine but I don't think anyone can place a safe bet on these engines. I hope there's still owners reporting here after 3-5 years just for the sake of us knowing what happened in the long term.

[Ootohere]

I ran a REVO Stage 1 map for 1,000 miles to try it out, because the person that was doing it guaranteed that any breakages would be covered at their expense.

That is how i know how crap their Stage 1 was.

[andy3270]

George you previously mentioned a warranty for modified engines do you have one or any info on any thank you.

[Furbytom]

I'd imagine it's nigh on impossible to say in this case if the Map caused the engine to go pop or whether it would have done so anyway, given that standard engines all too frequently have the same or similar problems.

I feel that mapping these cars just lowers the threshold for inherent issues to appear, or shortens the time interval over which they show themselves.

Abit like a diabetic who smokes having a heart attack or stroke. They might have had one anyway due to the nature of their condition but the fags are unlikely to have helped!

[Ootohere]

No such thing as a Warranty for Remaps exists to my knowledge.

Only Tuners saying they will cover with a Warranty, Remappers & Tuning Box Sellers and then the T&C's show there is no real Cover.

 

Skoda & Seat DEalerships that were REVO DEalers used to say you had a Warranty, but that was not true.

[newbie69]

I'd imagine it's nigh on impossible to say in this case if the Map caused the engine to go pop or whether it would have done so anyway, given that standard engines all too frequently have the same or similar problems.

I feel that mapping these cars just lowers the threshold for inherent issues to appear, or shortens the time interval over which they show themselves.

Abit like a diabetic who smokes having a heart attack or stroke. They might have had one anyway due to the nature of their condition but the fags are unlikely to have helped!

 

Maybe you're right. I currently know of a few remapped for almost 3 years now. Started as stage 1, then went stage 2, some stayed there and others continued to 2+ and BT. So we have some that are still well on their 3rd year already. I guess we can only wait and see what happens...

[Jabozuma]

Agree on almost the entire post but the last statement. The owner may indeed have to foot the bill but it's obviously one (Skoda) or the other's (APR) fault. Either Skoda provided an engine with an inherent weakness that just happened to show itself at this point, OR APR are selling a bad map. Can't be any other way really, unless the owner had deliberately messed with the engine or the map himself, which I very highly doubt.

 

I only recently found out some info about the early APR maps on these engines (around 2011) and they were not... great to say the least. Not from the performance point of view, oh no, but regarding engine safety. The potential hazard became known when people started doing extensive logging of lambda values, EGT etc. and what they were seeing was a bit shocking (labda:1 @ 6400rpm iirc). Then APR published an update but who got it, when etc. The fact that no 1.4 TSIs are available in the US to actually test-drive and live data-log the car, to compare theoretical with actual performance of the engine doesn't help in that direction I would imagine. Of course, it's 2015 already and I would think all tuners must by now be publishing proper and safe maps but then I don't know that for a fact. I was also of the belief that APR have always been offering one of the best maps for this engine, and maybe now they do, but I guess you learn something every day.

 

Lambda readings are pretty much useless as it is a narrow band so either on or of signal, rich or lean and it oscillates between rich and lean on any car with catalytic converter as they need both rich and lean conditions to operate properly. You can read cat temp values and I think there is at least one more EGT sensor somewhere so it is a good indication too hot means too lean and busted motor.

 

If you have links to those logs I'd love to see it in any case!

 

As for the contributions towards the costs of putting things right I cannot see any logic in what you are writing I am afraid.

If it went bang after the warranty expired due to the known problems but without ECU being re-mapped then absolutely, SUK should pay for the whole thing.

 

When you map the car you are giving your car's brain to a "tuner" to have it messed with and you have absolutely no clue what they do with it really. It is a matter of trust and some disclaimers you sign when buying said service. Those "tuners" do not give you any warranty or explicitly state that they are not responsible for any damage or failures as a result of mapping. Having said that there is at least one tuner in Germany (name escapes me but it was mentioned on Briskie) who gives 12mnths warranty on the engine re-mapped by them and that is a proper service, they put their money where their mouths are! Unfortunately you need to pay mega bucks for it, well over £1k if memory serves...

Also, one of the reasons why your warranty is void if you re-map your ECU during warranty period.

[newbie69]

Lambda readings are pretty much useless as it is a narrow band so either on or of signal, rich or lean and it oscillates between rich and lean on any car with catalytic converter as they need both rich and lean conditions to operate properly. You can read cat temp values and I think there is at least one more EGT sensor somewhere so it is a good indication too hot means too lean and busted motor.

 

If you have links to those logs I'd love to see it in any case!

 

As for the contributions towards the costs of putting things right I cannot see any logic in what you are writing I am afraid.

If it went bang after the warranty expired due to the known problems but without ECU being re-mapped then absolutely, SUK should pay for the whole thing.

 

When you map the car you are giving your car's brain to a "tuner" to have it messed with and you have absolutely no clue what they do with it really. It is a matter of trust and some disclaimers you sign when buying said service. Those "tuners" do not give you any warranty or explicitly state that they are not responsible for any damage or failures as a result of mapping. Having said that there is at least one tuner in Germany (name escapes me but it was mentioned on Briskie) who gives 12mnths warranty on the engine re-mapped by them and that is a proper service, they put their money where their mouths are! Unfortunately you need to pay mega bucks for it, well over £1k if memory serves...

Also, one of the reasons why your warranty is void if you re-map your ECU during warranty period.

 

It was all explained to me by someone who is an actual car mechanic and could bother shedding a light as to what was happening with that map in more detail. It wasn't just lambda which at that particular rpm range was dangerously high (almost 15% higher than stock at something like 1.3 bar compared to 0.6 as stock iirc) but also ingition timing etc. All current 1.4 tsi maps are using much less aggressive values as he told me. The outcome was that APR indeed corrected that file with an update back then. I don't have those logs I just read through that forum as the discussion had been going on for tenths of pages and just wanted to focus on what was the outcome.

 

Regarding responsibility I think you missed my point. I didn't say the tuner has to pay if it is his fault, because as you say most tuners basically say: come to us, give us your ECU but then if it breaks we won't pay anything. Agreed. You won't get any money back from them. It still is their fault though and it is a lesson for you to learn that the X tuner is useless as a few early vRS owners here learned the hard way back in 2011 iirc. I think you would agree to that?