Throttle Response Delay Manual 1.2tsi

[chrisoverson]

Hi chaps.

 

Been driving my new seat toledo around the last few days and loving it!   Lovely and spacious, comfy and has all the toys, but isn't as responsive as my last car.

 

At first I thought it didn't have the power, but I think it just actually feels very disconnected.

 

As an example, driving along I can put my foot flat down in second gear... there's a 1 second or more delay before the OOMPH kicks in!    I don't think it's turbo lag as literally nothing happens.

 

Is this a normal thing?   If so, is this what the pedal tuning boxes are there to correct?   They seem quite expensive for what they do as I assume they're fairly simple circuits.

 

Cheers guys

[camelspyyder]

God knows?

 

I've never had my foot to the floor in the first 12000 miles

 

The brand new engine was pretty tight to start with as evidenced by rubbish mpg initially, but it loosened up by 1500-2000 miles

 

Also I just dont think it has any torque low down - thats why you've got 6 speeds. It's a big car to row along with a 1200 donk.

 

 

Agree with all your positive thoughts though.  My only gripe was the no choice grey/black interior on the SE - I would have preferered all black, preferably with the Skoda Sport seats.

 

Whatever - it was too cheap to turn down, and I'm still really happy with it 12 months on.

Edited 2 April, 2015 by camelspyyder

[Stormchaser]

Just flooring it won't do anything. The turbo starts spooling at about 1500 to 2000rpm with no flat spots.

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[DGW]

Max torque - such as it is - is available from 1550 to 4100 rpm, and max power at 5000 rpm.

[camelspyyder]

You'd never know it was at max torque at 1550.

 

It is like most other turbos I've owned to be honest, sod all below 2k, reasonable till 3k, then yahoo.

 

 

On another tack, is your car affected by the replacement accelerator recall, I mean product enhancment.

Edited 2 April, 2015 by camelspyyder

[MickA]

I had similar reaction from my Toledo today, I floored the pedal and nothing happened when pulling away at a junction.

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I then realised I had it in 3rd gear. :peek:

[chrisoverson]

Cheers for the input guys.

 

I realise the way to accelerate isn't to just put your foot down and expect a leap forwards, what I meant was even if you put your foot down there's a delay before the car does anything.   This seems to be an electronic thing because it's more like "are you sure you want more power......... okay then!" than "please wait... spooling turbo..."

 

Driving it a little bit more spiritedly today I'm having a lot more fun as I'm learning how and when the car responds.   The delay is still there but is more noticable when pulling away from junctions etc, sudden sharp acceleration required.

 

Yesterday I came up to a junction I know very well which emerges onto a 60mph road, look to my right there's cars coming but plenty of space, I'm already moving as I approach the junction in 2nd gear... foot down and nothing happens but I lazily drift foreward and almost onto the road.  I had to brake sharply and wait for the cars to pass before I could pull out.

 

I'm sure given another second or so or it would have kicked in and gone off the mark, but it was very unsettling.

 

I think the ECU seems to basically dampen your throttle inputs to make everything feel smoother, so if you go straight from 10% to 50% throttle it increases in a gentle curve rather than instantly demanding it from the engine.   It does make for a very nice drive a lot of the time but can make it a little unresponsive too.   I suppose this is why more sportier premium models have "sport mode" and "normal mode" ?

 

The car seems to be plenty capable enough when out on the twisty windy roads or around town, but it definitely feels more set up as a comfy cruiser than a sporty number to be pushed.    Which to be honest is nice, I'll just have to switch my driving music from rock to mozart and have a more chilled drive

Edited 2 April, 2015 by chrisoverson

[camelspyyder]

Cheers for the input guys.

 

I realise the way to accelerate isn't to just put your foot down and expect a leap forwards, what I meant was even if you put your foot down there's a delay before the car does anything.   This seems to be an electronic thing because it's more like "are you sure you want more power......... okay then!" than "please wait... spooling turbo..."

 

Driving it a little bit more spiritedly today I'm having a lot more fun as I'm learning how and when the car responds.   The delay is still there but is more noticable when pulling away from junctions etc, sudden sharp acceleration required.

 

Yesterday I came up to a junction I know very well which emerges onto a 60mph road, look to my right there's cars coming but plenty of space, I'm already moving as I approach the junction in 2nd gear... foot down and nothing happens but I lazily drift foreward and almost onto the road.  I had to brake sharply and wait for the cars to pass before I could pull out.

 

I'm sure given another second or so or it would have kicked in and gone off the mark, but it was very unsettling.

 

I think the ECU seems to basically dampen your throttle inputs to make everything feel smoother, so if you go straight from 10% to 50% throttle it increases in a gentle curve rather than instantly demanding it from the engine.   It does make for a very nice drive a lot of the time but can make it a little unresponsive too.   I suppose this is why more sportier premium models have "sport mode" and "normal mode" ?

 

The car seems to be plenty capable enough when out on the twisty windy roads or around town, but it definitely feels more set up as a comfy cruiser than a sporty number to be pushed.    Which to be honest is nice, I'll just have to switch my driving music from rock to mozart and have a more chilled drive

 

If it doesn't pull at T-junctions thats dangerous - go to the dealer ASAP.  Our FIAT had the same symptoms after a MAF failure and getting on to main roads was bloody scary.

 

Re: the ride/handling - the early ones were set up rock hard and everyone hated the ride - mind you with Skoda badging it would do the Nurburgring in 9:17 on 15 inch tyres (whole lap on youtube) which is pretty cool for a stock 1200.

 

Based on the positive feedback here I'm going to put the shorter Eibach springs on mine when I get back to the UK which should help the handling (and looks) without compromising the ride too much.

[wiilydog]

This sounds exactly how my octy tdi feels like with my dtuk pedal box switched off, I like instant response which is what a pedal box does and makes the it so much nicer to drive. guess the manufacturer has to cater for all different types of drivers so there will a comprise.

[chrisoverson]

It's not too bad now I'm getting used to it, it seems to be a problem specifically at low speeds in 2nd gear.   I'd expect any car to respond fairly quick when you're moving downhill or flat in second... you shouldn't need 1st.    However unless the revs are already climbing there's a definite delay in this car.  

 

It seems to respond much better and feels much smoother now I'm running it on Tesco Momentum 99, although that could also be because it now has some extra miles on the clock and it's still loosening everything up too .

 

Ride wise I'm very happy with the car, I think I've got bridgestone 215/45/16 tyres on and I haven't yet heard it slip or squeal once.     I haven't been brave enough to throw her around in any corners at all, I'm normally a bit conservative on twisty bits and only go fast in a straight line.  Still in the speed limits of course .    How would you guys say this car handles through corners?

 

I've been looking at the pedal boxes or the bluespark tuning boxes but I'm not sure how much difference either will make, also aware I should leave it alone during warranty etc.    Would you say they make a big difference?

[chrisoverson]

Our FIAT had the same symptoms after a MAF failure and getting on to main roads was bloody scary.

 

I don't think it's anything quite as serious as this, but would there be other symptoms to look for?   Error codes, poor mpg etc?   I know on my old car with a dead maf it would refuse to rev about 4k as a safety barrier.

Edited 6 April, 2015 by chrisoverson

[wiilydog]

 

 

I've been looking at the pedal boxes or the bluespark tuning boxes but I'm not sure how much difference either will make, also aware I should leave it alone during warranty etc.    Would you say they make a big difference?

I've tried both and tuning box does not do much to the pedal response as you still get that dead travel before anything happens and it's the pedal box that eliminates the slight delay.  You can probably learn to live with it but once you've tried a pedal box you won't want to remove it as the pedal feels such sluggish without it, it is also easy to programme to your desired feel.  I do not drive fast but personally feel the pedal box make the car safer as it response immediately to your foot especially when coming out of a busy junction or round about.

[chrisoverson]

Thanks.   I'd like to know what goes into the pedal box as I find it strange that the signal from the pedal itself adds delay, you'd think it'd be on the ECU end. 

 

I'm fairly knowledgable with electronics and I can't see why these boxes cost what they do, they surely can't be all that complicated?   I assume it's a supply and demand thing.

[edbostan]

My 1.2tsi Roomster has that flat spot when accelerating hard in second gear when rolling. disconcerting

[chrisoverson]

My 1.2tsi Roomster has that flat spot when accelerating hard in second gear when rolling. disconcerting

 

It's such a shame.   I decided to take a 10 mile detour on my way home today so I could have some fun on the country roads and it drove absolutely lovely.   This non-responsiveness at low speed is such a pain, because otherwise it's superb!

[camelspyyder]

Come on now, what did you expect?

 

Off boost it is a low compression 1200 dragging an 1100kg car about.

 

A naturally aspirated 1200 would have more go.

[Delberthot]

Come on now, what did you expect?

 

Off boost it is a low compression 1200 dragging an 1100kg car about.

 

A naturally aspirated 1200 would have more go.

 

 

That's what I was thinking. It's a big car with a small engine and until that turbo kicks in, it's a big car with a small engine.

 

I experience the lag as well but you just adapt your driving to it - in fact it's still something of a novelty to me as it's my first turbo charged car -  to be accelerating slowly and then the boost kicks in and away you go

Edited 8 April, 2015 by Delberthot

[chrisoverson]

Come on now, what did you expect?

 

Off boost it is a low compression 1200 dragging an 1100kg car about.

 

A naturally aspirated 1200 would have more go.

 

I suppose you're right of course.   It really does surprise me how much power it gives for a little 1.2.     I've looked at the different options and I've decided I won't be getting a tuning box, certainly for the moment as I don't want to risk messing with the warranty and it would put the insurance up quite a bit (more than won't cover any kind of modification), next cheapest insurer is £200 more.

 

I'm used to having some power on and off boost, coming from a 2.0td, I'll just have to adapt to driving it I think thanks guys.

[camelspyyder]

I suppose you're right of course.   It really does surprise me how much power it gives for a little 1.2.     I've looked at the different options and I've decided I won't be getting a tuning box, certainly for the moment as I don't want to risk messing with the warranty and it would put the insurance up quite a bit (more than won't cover any kind of modification), next cheapest insurer is £200 more.

 

I'm used to having some power on and off boost, coming from a 2.0td, I'll just have to adapt to driving it I think thanks guys.

 

Dont get me wrong, it's quick and fun for a 1200; my last full timer was a 1200 Punto with 60 bhp.  The Rapid / Toledo has 115-120 bhp (according to independent dynos) so it's light years quicker, when it's in the power band.

[wiilydog]

Pretty sure the dead travel is partly engineered lag to ensure it suits all drivers and weather conditions otherwise you get lot of complaints with it being too sensitive. The good thing about a pedal box is that most insurers don't charge extra as it does increase the bhp.

[Openwindow]

In no small part symptomatic of drive by wire setups. I previously ran a swift sport - relatively light with a revvy, non-turbo 1.6. It was responsive but never quite as direct as a cable, even when on song.

Also, a deliberately smoothed response is probably part of the intended perceived quality.

[chrisoverson]

Reading about on the interwebs I've seen mentions of people grounding the throttle body on various vehicles to get a boosted signal.   Now I know that it sounds rediculous and I have a fair knowledge of electronics and computers, so bare with me.    From what I've read about other cars it does make a difference with some electronic throttle cars, but ONLY where there is not a good ground on the throttle body to start with.    They just run a wire from the throttle body to the chassis/battery.

 

With my multimeter I've tested and there is no connection between ground and the throttle body when the ignition is off.    However when the car is active there is a connection, although it has a resistance of 4.8k which is quite high and could drop the signal voltage coming from the throttle pedal.   It would seem that the only earth the electrical signal has is via the small black wire on the loom which probably goes through a lot of circuitry and the ECU.

 

Being an open exposed metal component there should be no harm in earthing it, and on any cars with a metal intake pipe they are already earthed.     If these pedal boxes simply boost the voltage, then earthing the throttle body may up the voltage a little bit by removing the earth resistance.   It obviously won't be as nicely done or controllable, but if any difference can be made it's only going to cost pennies, or free if you have a bit of scrap wire.

 

I'm happy to give it a go if anyone's interested?