Leaders Debate

[moley]

Just reading about the debate on the BBC webpage and when looking at how the pollsters have gauged how the leaders did. Although the polls vary it's interesting to see that Nick Clegg came fifth in all of the polls. I think this is a fair reflection of how the lib dems will do in the election.

The constituency where I live has always returned a Tory MP by a large margin, so whoever I vote for will make little difference to the outcome of the election.  

[trundlenut]

Good Ol' Dave. Looking after his vested interests to the end.

"I want the NHS and GP service to be a seven day service" - nobodies going to argue with that, given the current pressures of everyday life, even if you have got sympathy with the notion that "On the seventh day, thou shall rest", as being a good piece of practical advice on work/life balance. Until you recall where those pressures originate from.

Put in context, that phrase means that lots more of the NHS resource will be moved from the Hospital to GP service. And if my antennae are reporting correctly, its the GP service that Dave and his mates are intent on privatising.

Why you ask ? Well, at least two fold, because the GPs have increasingly felt over the last 20 years that they are the abused Cinderella service (Clearly the management scientists, Herzberg et al, were right about pay being a "Hygiene" factor and not a motivator) and are just ripe to receive a bloody good stroking with the blandishments of the private sector. And second, the future diagnosis and treatment model will require fewer hospital interventions because of advances in diagnosis and treatment technology, meaning more patients will be able to have their conditions corrected and turned around without a hospital referral. So where will all the NHS money be, with the GP service, stupid ! And this regime is now confirmed by law - the Health and Social Care Act 2012, under which all the purchasing power in the NHS is effectively transferred to the GP Commisioning groups.

Dave and his mates are never knowingly at the place where the money isn't.

Postscript

From what I seen/heard, the operation of the "New model NHS" (Sounds like Cromwellian England) ain't got off to a flying start.

The implementation of On-line patient services is far from fully developed in my locality, now being on its second iteration and only offering skeleton services - I don't think the staff have yet made up their minds on this issue, whether they're luddites or chancers .

Sadly, it seems that some aspects of the community service might be going down the pan under the new arrangements.

I was sitting in the local chemist the other day, waiting for my prescription to be fulfilled, when a new customer came into the shop and started talking to the pharmacist. Apparently, she was a near relative/carer, to someone who had just been discharged from a longish stay in hospital with a severe cardiac condition - one that required treatment with Warfarin. She was recounting that it had taken ages in hospital until doctors had found the right balance in the patients blood clotting factors (It usually does take a long-time with Warfarin) and were able to release him to rest at home. However, subsequently, despite repeated attempts to contact the community health service, she couldn't get anybody to now come out and take blood samples of the patient at home (Which is necessary to maintain the clotting balance). Doesn't sound too good, does it ?

Nick

That is very similar to a situation one of my grandparents was in about 7 or 8 years ago.

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[Clunkclick]

Just reading about the debate on the BBC webpage and when looking at how the pollsters have gauged how the leaders did. Although the polls vary it's interesting to see that Nick Clegg came fifth in all of the polls. I think this is a fair reflection of how the lib dems will do in the election.

The constituency where I live has always returned a Tory MP by a large margin, so whoever I vote for will make little difference to the outcome of the election.  

Same here in  the revolving door smokey connurbation, except to the opposite pole. Were all global economists here, apparently.

 

Nick

Edited 3 April, 2015 by Clunkclick

[moley]

BBC have removed the satirical radio show "The News Quiz" from its usual 12.25 pm slot today and substituted "You and yours". ROFL

 

Clearly, the centralised message delivered via the leader's debate is too delicate to stand a bit of ribbing. Big brother or what ?

 

 

Nick

You and yours is listed in the Radio times which was on sale on Tuesday 24th March, so it not a sudden programme change.

[kevberlin]

So almost 5 years into the parliamentary cycle a staged tv 'debate' is going to inform voters.

If voters have failed to be informed over the last 5 years, they ought to renounce the right to vote.

It was, predictibably, a load of old cobblers, with acting, stage presence and sound bites being the key features.

[camelspyyder]

BBC have removed the satirical radio show "The News Quiz" from its usual 12.25 pm slot today and substituted "You and yours". ROFL

 

Clearly, the centralised message delivered via the leader's debate is too delicate to stand a bit of ribbing. Big brother or what ?

 

 

Nick

 

What the BBC refusing to endorse Ed's message?  I thought you had to be paid-up Labour members to work there.

[justinbarrow]

They are saying it will most certainly be another hung parliament with no party winning an overall majority so god knows what will happen - Latest opinion polls put the Tories at 34% and Labour on 33%

[moley]

They are saying it will most certainly be another hung parliament with no party winning an overall majority so god knows what will happen - Latest opinion polls put the Tories at 34% and Labour on 33%

It looks likely that if the Tories win but don't have an overall majority they might do a deal with UKIP to form a coalition, this depends on the number of seat UKIP get. Likewise if Labour win without a majority they could do a deal with the SNP to form a coalition, again depending on the number of seats. 

[gadgetman]

They are saying it will most certainly be another hung parliament with no party winning an overall majority so god knows what will happen - Latest opinion polls put the Tories at 34% and Labour on 33%

I think this is now the future of our politics as the appeal of the main 2 drops.

[camelspyyder]

It's only the first few days of the campaign.

 

I think there's plenty of time for the 34% each (BBC poll of polls) split to develop into a wider gap.

 

I think the future depends less on how many UKIP win (zero?), but how many marginal seats the UKIP vote affects.

 

I'm convinced one of the Big 2 will win, and then the SNP can get back under their rock.

Edited 3 April, 2015 by camelspyyder

[gadgetman]

The issue with UKIP is their current 2 MP's were sitting MP's who defected.  They're busy sacking MP's and MEP's, that I'll be surprised if they field candidates in every seat they've shown intention to.

 

My only hope is Farage falls flat on his ass and fails to win Thanet.

[Richf]

Channel 4 fact check went through the numbers during the EU elections, and proved immigrants contributed more than they collectively take.

Programme on the other night (BBC iirc ) was about Brits in the Costa del Sol and the Spanish were saying the same about us as we do with EU migrants. Come here, don't contribute, milk our services and health care...

The data isn't collected by border control so therefore is impossible to be produced with any kind of accuracy

[gadgetman]

The data isn't collected by border control so therefore is impossible to be produced with any kind of accuracy

But HMRC will know who is a british national, and who is a non uk national who's been given an NI code for tax purposes.  Factor in school, DWP and NHS data etc etc and that's pretty much how they get the numbers to substantiate immigrants contribute more than they take.

[Richf]

But HMRC will know who is a british national, and who is a non uk national who's been given an NI code for tax purposes. Factor in school, DWP and NHS data etc etc and that's pretty much how they get the numbers to substantiate immigrants contribute more than they take.

The data isn't accurate hasn't been for years, there is no central agency collecting this data. These agencies don't talk to each other

Certainly nothing since Bulgarian and Romanian nationals were allowed to work here without needing permits

Edited 3 April, 2015 by Richf

[fabdavrav]

SNP will clearly do well in the election, and use it as ransom for another independence vote to be agreed.

However recent events in key areas mentioned in the white paper such as oil and gas revenue have been proved as false. If the vote had have been yes, Scotland would have started its independence with a huge hole in its finances.

I'm amazed that there isn't much fallout from Farage now effectively saying not only is it immigrants sucking the NHS dry, but they all have HIV too.

WTF?

There's absolutely no stats to back it up, just scaremongering to the daily mail electorate

 

Farage stated that there were 7000 cases of HIV in the last year in the UK & that 60% of those were to people who did not hold British citizenship.

 

TBH I think we should pull up the drawbridge as our own house is in very bad order & getting worse........as we are overloaded, NHS can't cope, even the roads, and even in some places the waterworks............this island is small & we only have a finite number of resources! Who are we to be telling others how to run their country when we can't sort ours out properly!

 

You know what is even funnier?........a few months back some Polish minister was calling for some of it's own citizens to come back & help fill the job vacancies!.................If you want your country to do better do it, don't just abandon it, as who is left at home to bring the country up to scratch?

 

 

As for the SNP........................just don't go there.......................bunch of dimwits who are still fighting Culloden all over again!..........Not quite as that was basically the Highlanders verses the lowlanders in reality, but don't tell them that!

[Aspman]

I thought it was shallow and the 'debate' was pretty absent. Like 2hr of 7 party political broadcasts mixed together.

 

Farage is a one trick pony, he doesn't need anymore.

 

Sturgeon again is only really talking to voters north of the border so she doesn'T need to put across political appeal to the UK as a whole. Irrespective of their actual political stance the SNP is a formidable political operation and Sturgeon talks a good game.

 

The green leader managed to avoid coming out as the barking mad loonies that they actually are.

 

Cameron sensibly kept his mouth shut as much as possible, he could only win here by the others shooting themselves.

 

Clegg -  dead man walking

 

Milliband, doing his best but hobbled by the fact he's a lying sack of ****e in hock to the unions and will shack up with anyone to get into #10

 

My other thought were "7 leaders 4 millionaires". None of them know about life outside London's elite circles, either political or financial.

[Ootohere]

If there are so many in the 4 countries that it is full, then they can maybe get them working to do the Food Production,

Road Works, Building, Drainage, Water Works, Ground works, Nursing Care, Care for the elderly, 

just get the lazy ****s off the benefits.

 

Educate some of them first obviously, so that will be teachers that have jobs as well.

and then midwives to help with the births, before they get to Pre-school.

 

Funny we are such a full country and yet so many want to not work, because it means actually doing something for what many of the 

British Working Class considers not enough money.

Those that do earn good money obviously want stuff done for as cheap as possible so are OK with paying cash in hand to those 

on the grip.

[lol-lol]

I managed to watch some of it but MI 5/6 could use it to get confessions out of people forcing people ot watch.  I suspect I came to the same conclusion as many.

 

Conservative - Clearly cannot be trusted to look after the majority of people, lie after lie, you take the pain, we will take the gain.

Greens - Love what you say but it is not all about climate change and who thought it was a good idea to have an Aussie as a leader?

Labour - Agree with most of what is said and glad to hear taxing higher earners (like me) shows you have costed it, looks geeky but decent bloke.

Lib-Dem - Cannot be trusted at all, would sell his granny, five years of  (some) power  rightly going to be put in to obscurity soon.

Plaid - Great to hear you fighting your corner, relevance low to anyone outside Wales.

SNP - Well put arguments, great agenda except the no nukes, very well might cost the earth but what else guarantees our national safety?

UKIP - reminds me of Oswald Mosley, married a German, perhaps wishes was in Germany in the late 30s or earlier 40s.  Be interesting to see how many more Ultras will defect.

 

Well only 30 odd days to go and interesting time ahead.  Shame we do not have a free press, The Sun is a disgrace, thankfully most people smarter now and are aware of what the last 5 years have actually meant for the man/woman in the street.

[Dr Zoidberg]

 

The green leader managed to avoid coming out as the barking mad loonies that they actually are.

 

Go to their website and read their manifesto. There's a lot more than you might expect makes sense.

[moley]

Conservative - Clearly cannot be trusted .

Greens - Clearly cannot be trusted .

Labour - Clearly cannot be trusted .

Lib-Dem - Clearly cannot be trusted .

Plaid - Clearly cannot be trusted .

SNP - Clearly cannot be trusted .

UKIP - Clearly cannot be trusted .

Corrected that for you.

[lol-lol]

Corrected that for you.

 

You are sounding like Rusell Brand which is not a bad thing in some ways but somebody has to Govern.

 

As my dear old Dad use to say parties do not win elections they lose them and for me the Cons (and their patsy the Lib-Dems) have comprehensivley failed to govern well.

 

National Debt doubled to £1.4T in 5 years. Severley run down state education, health, police and transport, whilst lining the pockets of their cronnies with reduced taxes.

 

Lesser of evils and I will even be a "turkey voting for Xmas" and say I agree you should get rid of 40% pension relief on pensions as it just means I, and others like me, can squirel away thousands per year whilst others scrimp to live.  This is the inequity that the Con-Dems have pertetuated and even expanded on.  

[trundlenut]

So if say labour get into power are we going to see a real difference? Or will we see a spot of tinkering here and there but given the current position there isn't actually much difference between what will happen regardless of who is in power.

If labour had still been in power would the national debt not have doubled or would it now be £2T?

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[lol-lol]

So if say labour get into power are we going to see a real difference? Or will we see a spot of tinkering here and there but given the current position there isn't actually much difference between what will happen regardless of who is in power.  If labour had still been in power would the national debt not have doubled or would it now be £2T?

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Who knows exactly where the debt would be.  Many extra billions would have been collected through banker's bonus tax, excise duty on fuel (but less VAT of course), more PAYE tax for the highest earners.

 

The Labour plan was invest to revive the economy sooner by a process of high yield process which should have shortened the recssion from its 7 years so far so that we emerged from it a year or two sooner.

 

The choice is sharing the advantages and disadvantages of the current situation fairly or the middle calass and poor bearing the pain whilst the well of just have the gain.

[trundlenut]

Who knows exactly where the debt would be. Many extra billions would have been collected through banker's bonus tax, excise duty on fuel (but less VAT of course), more PAYE tax for the highest earners.

The Labour plan was invest to revive the economy sooner by a process of high yield process which should have shortened the recssion from its 7 years so far so that we emerged from it a year or two sooner.

The choice is sharing the advantages and disadvantages of the current situation fairly or the middle calass and poor bearing the pain whilst the well of just have the gain.

But it is unlikely that this would have made big differences, a few billion here a few there is just deckchair shuffling in terms of social care, no let alone the national debt etc.

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[lol-lol]

But it is unlikely that this would have made big differences, a few billion here a few there is just deckchair shuffling in terms of social care, no let alone the national debt etc.

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A few tens of billions of tax decisions indeed is course correction of a few degrees.

 

With the UK National Debt risen from about £750B in 2010 to about £1.4T now and still climbing by about £8B a month and although slowing by the huge cuts to Public serivce and Pulic sector pay and the gradual turning round of the economy but with their (Con-Dem) cuts only 40% implemented there is more pain to come than has already been dealt out by their "plan".

 

It is known the the only significant areas of wealth are pension funds and property and to a lesser degree earnings.  These areas are worth many trillions of pounds and prospective governing parties are looking to tap them to reverse the serious decline in the UK government finances in the last 7 years.

 

Who ever is in power after May 7th, solely or jointly, will have some big decision to make.  The money is out there it is just who we decide gets the burden and benefit.