New UK diesel taxes - how will we be affected?

[Warkman]

Hang on, the story of the last decade as been a lowing of taxes! VED is much lower now than a decade ago with 70% of new cars zero rated in the first year and pretty much all cars falling in lower bands than their equivalent a decade ago. A decently powerful Octavia is paying less VED than a Fabia did a decade ago. In addition to this, that fuel efficiently has increased substantially and duty has been frozen we're paying far less tax per mile than we did a decade ago - both in absolute terms and especially in real terms.

 

It's simply not the case that the EU have imposed strict targets, allowing member states to tax more. The truth is the strict targets have driven technology R&D at a far faster rate, increasing our vehicle fleet's efficiency, benefiting (a) the European car industry as our products are move competitive on the global market, (b ) member states trade balances as we're not importing as much oil as we would otherwise had done and © us all personally as we're driving around in 50mpg+ cars where a decade ago it was closer to 30mpg (massive generalisation but the point is sound).

 

If the next decade can do for air quality what the last decade did for CO2 - brilliant.

Actually not quite correct.

EU6c is no different to NAS and Beijing 6 emission rules this won't give the EU any more advantage than any other area, but it will allow sales outside the EU, the bigger markets than EU is. As for air quality, it won't make that much difference, as there will be another "target" to meet for the next cars are evil mob. It hasn't really made R&D any quicker, as it has pushed the manufacturers down the battery powered cars route, which, in its manufacture causes more pollution than saved by driving the car. Toyota Prius will never repay the manufacturing pollution to build the battery car in the first place.

[Jigger72]

Here come the Greens

 

Why do you say it as if it's an insult?

 

Is there something wrong with being concerned about environmental issues, or are you just not bothered? 

[Gromle]

Actually not quite correct.

EU6c is no different to NAS and Beijing 6 emission rules this won't give the EU any more advantage than any other area, but it will allow sales outside the EU, the bigger markets than EU is. As for air quality, it won't make that much difference, as there will be another "target" to meet for the next cars are evil mob. It hasn't really made R&D any quicker, as it has pushed the manufacturers down the battery powered cars route, which, in its manufacture causes more pollution than saved by driving the car. Toyota Prius will never repay the manufacturing pollution to build the battery car in the first place.

And co2 emissions from cars really doesnt matter in the big picture. 6-7 of the biggest containerships who sail the globe, alone emits more co2 than all the cars in Norway combined.

But yeah, diesel is quite bad locally..

[Orville]

Hang on, the story of the last decade as been a lowing of taxes! VED is much lower now than a decade ago with 70% of new cars zero rated in the first year and pretty much all cars falling in lower bands than their equivalent a decade ago. A decently powerful Octavia is paying less VED than a Fabia did a decade ago. In addition to this, that fuel efficiently has increased substantially and duty has been frozen we're paying far less tax per mile than we did a decade ago - both in absolute terms and especially in real terms.

 

It's simply not the case that the EU have imposed strict targets, allowing member states to tax more. The truth is the strict targets have driven technology R&D at a far faster rate, increasing our vehicle fleet's efficiency, benefiting (a) the European car industry as our products are move competitive on the global market, (b ) member states trade balances as we're not importing as much oil as we would otherwise had done and © us all personally as we're driving around in 50mpg+ cars where a decade ago it was closer to 30mpg (massive generalisation but the point is sound).

 

If the next decade can do for air quality what the last decade did for CO2 - brilliant.

A high percentage of new cars do indeed fall within low or free bands, but the vast majority of cars on the road are not new, and many older cars are taxed progressively higher. What revenues are lost by new ultra-efficient cars will be more than made up for by hikes to older less efficient vehicles.

[Gerrycan]

And co2 emissions from cars really doesnt matter in the big picture. 6-7 of the biggest containerships who sail the globe, alone emits more co2 than all the cars in Norway combined.

But yeah, diesel is quite bad locally..

And there are about 50,000 container ships, not to mention bulk carriers of iron ore, oil, LNG, cars, etc. Marine diesel oil is the thickest most evil brew that it has to be heated up to be able to be viscous enough to pump and be used.

[Gromle]

And there are about 50,000 container ships, not to mention bulk carriers of iron ore, oil, LNG, cars, etc. Marine diesel oil is the thickest most evil brew that it has to be heated up to be able to be viscous enough to pump and be used.

Exactly! So going after cars because of co2 emissions is like pi$$ING in the ocean to make a flood.

[noiseboy]

So anyway,,.. all politics aside (this seems the kind of thread that reinforces everyone's pre-existing ideology), I just want an idea of the facts here. What's the nox of s business Greenline vs a regular Skoda diesel? and this meets Euro 6 criteria? Which is what? And is Euro 6 already mandatory in the UK? And for how long? What's the kind of figures of other diesel cars out there?

Just trying to get an idea of how green the Greenline really is nox-wise compared to other diesels out there. Thanks,

[Gromle]

The 105bhp diesel has a nox emission of 137,4 mg/km.

To compare the vrs TDI DSG has 148mg/km.

Edited 1 May, 2015 by Gromle

[clv101]

All the emission details for each car can be found on the DLVA website. Not gonna try and find on phone though...

[Dempsek]

Nox levels from DVLA.

1.4TSI Manual 27, DGS. 21.

1.6 TDI Greenline 117.

Co2 Greenline. 85

1.4TSI. 121, DSG 116

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WaveyDavey]

I think that very much depends where you live.  I can see that being the case down south in London but not round here.  And the last time I did some AQ calcs you needed more than 26 people on a bus to break even with 26 people in typical cars in terms of emmissions.  More than 26 on a bus and you gain, less and you lose....   but the buses still run regardless - often with less than a handful of people on them.

 

 

All the new Stagecoach Sheffield and First Sheffield / South Yorkshire buses introduced in the last three years have been hybrid or very low emission vehicles. (The green liveried Stagecoach double deckers are the hybrids and First's new 14, 64 & 15 plate vehicles are all either hybrids or very low emission)

[noiseboy]

Thanks for those posts, useful info, might do some more digging tomorrow,

[Richf]

Exactly! So going after cars because of co2 emissions is like pi$$ING in the ocean to make a flood.

The shipping industry have made progress just like everyone else , on average ships are twice as efficient on fuel as they were 20 years ago , it has less co2 Impact to send 1 tonne of cargo via a ship than it does via an aircraft

Cars and trucks in the U.S. produce one fifth of that countries co2 emission NOT targeting these polluters would be madness

The threat of greenhouse gases certainly hasn't gone away , there are people already living that will die as a direct result of global warming it's just that we found than low co2 Diesel engines represent an immediate and greater risk to human health in the short term

[skomaz]

All the new Stagecoach Sheffield and First Sheffield / South Yorkshire buses introduced in the last three years have been hybrid or very low emission vehicles. (The green liveried Stagecoach double deckers are the hybrids and First's new 14, 64 & 15 plate vehicles are all either hybrids or very low emission)

 

They can't be on the routes round me then...   as the ones I see are still chucking out masses of smoke and a lot are waaaay older than that.  eg TM Travel and the like.  My guess is that the newer ones ply the city centre routes and those to the north and east?

[WaveyDavey]

I wasn't saying ALL the buses in Sheffield were new ones.... Much the same as the person you were replying to was not saying ALL the buses in London are hybrid or low emission vehicles. It will take time to replace all the vehicles in use but i was pointing out that there are a few hundred of them already in use in Sheffield.  And i don't think anyone expects small companies such as TM Travel etc.... to be using the latest brand new vehicles at a cost of around £200000 plus per vehicle do they? I'm sure there are numerous similar small companies in London using the same type of vehicles.

 

But with regard where they are used.... I've seen them all over Sheffield, Rotherham and Doncaster so not as rare as you may think.... (I live in Chap and visit Millhouses and Woodseats regularly and see plenty along with where i work in Doncaster near the outlet.)

 

In Sheffield they ply routes to all four compass points within the city as far as i can tell.....Batemoor to the South.... Crookes and Lodge Moor to the west, High Green to the North and Meadowhall, Rotherham and Halfway in the East and South East. And that's just the main routes off the top of my head..... Then at weekends they get used on even more routes as the ones they are used on in the week run to a lesser intesity so releasing more new vehicles which are then used on other routes.... meaning the older vehicles are kept off the roads during off peak periods.

[nickcoll]

Hang on, the story of the last decade as been a lowing of taxes! VED is much lower now than a decade ago with 70% of new cars zero rated in the first year and pretty much all cars falling in lower bands than their equivalent a decade ago. A decently powerful Octavia is paying less VED than a Fabia did a decade ago. In addition to this, that fuel efficiently has increased substantially and duty has been frozen we're paying far less tax per mile than we did a decade ago - both in absolute terms and especially in real terms.

 

It's simply not the case that the EU have imposed strict targets, allowing member states to tax more. The truth is the strict targets have driven technology R&D at a far faster rate, increasing our vehicle fleet's efficiency, benefiting (a) the European car industry as our products are move competitive on the global market, (b ) member states trade balances as we're not importing as much oil as we would otherwise had done and © us all personally as we're driving around in 50mpg+ cars where a decade ago it was closer to 30mpg (massive generalisation but the point is sound).

 

If the next decade can do for air quality what the last decade did for CO2 - brilliant.

 

Great post. People are generally rubbish at seeing things in the round. The bigger and longer term picture is what counts, not the limited short term perspective. Some people don't like the EU, but as always everything is a balance and there are many positive aspects to having a body like the EU that can encourage all member countries to do things in everyone's long term interests rather than the short term interests that our rubbish politicians (all of them, this is not a party political rant) focus on because they just want to get re-elected.

 

A big example of this, as expressed so eloquently above, is the pressure on car manufacturers that has forced them to make cars more efficient over the last ten or so years. Market forces didn't do it, but legislation has.

 

Another example is the way in which vacuum cleaner manufacturers have been forced to increase the efficiency of their products. Dyson cleaners have always used less electricity than the other manufacturers for (in my experience) at least as good a result, because they have invested much more in R&D, but the other manufacturers have lazily not bothered to improve their products. Along comes the EU legislation and suddenly all of them have upped their games for the good of all. Consumers are not in general sophisticated enough to know that it is efficiency that counts rather than the amount of raw power that is consumed, so once again the market has not had any effect in improving efficiency.

 

A final example is lighting - LED lights are quite amazing in their efficiency, and progressively getting even more so, but like so many things you need to look at them from a different and more sophisticated perspective to appreciate that. The typical consumer looks at the upfront price and does not want to pay more for them, even though over their lifetime they save money. Without legislation the volumes would not go up as quickly as they are, which is leading to great efficiency improvements in manufacturing costs and also very significant R&D expenditure by manufacturers which are causing prices of LED lights and fittings to fall very quickly.

 

A tip for anyone looking at replacing or installing strip light fittings - look at the Screwfix LED batten fittings (part numbers 7123D and 4294D) which are really fantastic and very reasonably priced. They come on instantly and are much brighter than fluorescent fittings which are almost twice the power.

 

So the "EU legislation" which is some people's bogey man is more often a force for good than people would like to admit. Not everything that comes out of the EU is good, but exactly the same can be said for the home-grown legislation that our own politicians (of all parties) have produced both in the past and today.

[skomaz]

I wasn't saying ALL the buses in Sheffield were new ones.... Much the same as the person you were replying to was not saying ALL the buses in London are hybrid or low emission vehicles. It will take time to replace all the vehicles in use but i was pointing out that there are a few hundred of them already in use in Sheffield.  And i don't think anyone expects small companies such as TM Travel etc.... to be using the latest brand new vehicles at a cost of around £200000 plus per vehicle do they? I'm sure there are numerous similar small companies in London using the same type of vehicles.

 

But with regard where they are used.... I've seen them all over Sheffield, Rotherham and Doncaster so not as rare as you may think.... (I live in Chap and visit Millhouses and Woodseats regularly and see plenty along with where i work in Doncaster near the outlet.)

 

In Sheffield they ply routes to all four compass points within the city as far as i can tell.....Batemoor to the South.... Crookes and Lodge Moor to the west, High Green to the North and Meadowhall, Rotherham and Halfway in the East and South East. And that's just the main routes off the top of my head..... Then at weekends they get used on even more routes as the ones they are used on in the week run to a lesser intesity so releasing more new vehicles which are then used on other routes.... meaning the older vehicles are kept off the roads during off peak periods.

 

Fair enough - did a straw poll on Saturday on my travels - went up and down Abbeydale Rd 4 times through the day from Bradway, into Ponds Forge and back, and went shopping in town up and down Pinstone Street / Fargate and the Moor then back out towards Bramall Lane down Eyre Street.  Must have seen hundreds of buses from the main payers like First and Stagecoach plus smaller outfits but in total only three of the 'cleaner' thess than 3 years old variety with the reg dates you suggest - newest I saw was one (single) 14 plate, rest were 07's or older and one was T-reg (yes that old).

 

Sure they may be there but still not many around and not a high proportion.  And that was actually LOOKING for them...

 

No worries though - I'm sure they'll get there with the fleet (although I guess emissions regs will have moved on again by the time they do).

[WaveyDavey]

Fair enough - did a straw poll on Saturday on my travels - went up and down Abbeydale Rd 4 times through the day from Bradway, into Ponds Forge and back, and went shopping in town up and down Pinstone Street / Fargate and the Moor then back out towards Bramall Lane down Eyre Street. Must have seen hundreds of buses from the main payers like First and Stagecoach plus smaller outfits but in total only three of the 'cleaner' thess than 3 years old variety with the reg dates you suggest - newest I saw was one (single) 14 plate, rest were 07's or older and one was T-reg (yes that old).

Sure they may be there but still not many around and not a high proportion. And that was actually LOOKING for them...

No worries though - I'm sure they'll get there with the fleet (although I guess emissions regs will have moved on again by the time they do).

Just did a quick Google and found that First Sheffield have approx 106 of the new hybrid or low emission vehicles out of a fleet of approx 425.... So approx 25% of the fleet.

For Stagecoach Sheffield it looks to be approx 56 hybrids or low emission vehicles from a fleet of approx 160 vehicles.... So approx 33% of the fleet.

None of the other smaller operators in Sheffield have any which is to be expected with the costs involved etc.....

[skomaz]

Just did a quick Google and found that First Sheffield have approx 106 of the new hybrid or low emission vehicles out of a fleet of approx 425.... So approx 25% of the fleet.

For Stagecoach Sheffield it looks to be approx 56 hybrids or low emission vehicles from a fleet of approx 160 vehicles.... So approx 33% of the fleet.

None of the other smaller operators in Sheffield have any which is to be expected with the costs involved etc.....

Interesting as that is a much higher percentage than I would have guessed. Will keep my eye out for em as I have certainly seen the green WiFi hybrid buses on occasion.

I remember some time ago I had a quick go at working out the annually mileage of a fleet but and was amazed at how high it was. I knew it would be but was still surprised. I wonder how long they last before going out of spec on emmissions... When you think a car egr can get clogged in a few tens of thousand miles... And buses are doing stop start all the time...