What did you do to your bike today?

[fabiamk2SE]

We'll have to agree to wildly disagree on that one. A black visor is much better, and safer, than a clear one on any remotely sunny day. And much cooler - clear visors look s**te, lol, they belong with hi vis wally bibs and Sam brown belts

Its not like you to disagree with everybody elses views mate

[StripleR675]

Only when they're wrong, lol

Each to their own, but to suggest that "it's only occassionally that tinted (visor) is useful, and not for a prolonged period" is just nonsense. Whether or not you like them is a different matter altogether. And they do definitely look cooler - scientifically proven fact, lol

Edited 29 September, 2015 by StripleR675

[Chriswright03]

I rode with a mate the other day and he had one.  Irridium?  Anyway it did look cool I have to agree.  I also agree about Sam Brownes and Hi Viz.  Waste of time and very often worn by people who want others to think they are Old Bill.

[fabiamk2SE]

Only when they're wrong, lol

Each to their own, but to suggest that "it's only occassionally that tinted (visor) is useful, and not for a prolonged period" is just nonsense. Whether or not you like them is a different matter altogether. And they do definitely look cooler - scientifically proven fact, lol

Depends if you ride to look cool, or because you enjoy riding.

To me, about 90% of the time a clear visor is spot on.

Just like 90% of the time the clear windscreen on my car is spot on. Its only when im dazzled by low sun that im wondering when theyll invent an adaptive windscreen.

[StripleR675]

I rode with a mate the other day and he had one. Irridium? Anyway it did look cool I have to agree. I also agree about Sam Brownes and Hi Viz. Waste of time and very often worn by people who want others to think they are Old Bill.

I had a rainbow iridium visor back in the late nineties to early noughties (I think it's still in my loft, on my old crash damaged Quantum E). It did look cool, but the coating scratched at the slightest provocation (it was a surface coating over a tinted genuine visor). I have a silver mirror oneo (as well as black and legal 25% tints, although I've never used the legal tint) that I've had a good few years, and the coating on that is much more durable, but I'm still careful cleaning it.

I think hi vis is a waste of time too - I've yet to see any evidence that it's safer than black leather, but anyone with functioning eyesight can see that it makes wearers look like bellends, lol

Edited 29 September, 2015 by StripleR675

[Chriswright03]

I purposely wear black and the VFR was black as was my helmet.  Having sat behind people with blues and twos on for ages and them not notice I don't think colour makes much difference.  What keeps us alive and well is our own skill sets and not relying on others to look after us.  Far too many Hi vizzed to the hilt just ride along thinking they can be seen because they have got all the gear.  That is maybe where the expression all the gear and no idea came from!

[StripleR675]

Depends if you ride to look cool, or because you enjoy riding.

You can do both - they're not mutually exclusive.

You must do a lot of squinting on sunny days.

[StripleR675]

I purposely wear black and the VFR was black as was my helmet.  Having sat behind people with blues and twos on for ages and them not notice I don't think colour makes much difference.  What keeps us alive and well is our own skill sets and not relying on others to look after us.  Far too many Hi vizzed to the hilt just ride along thinking they can be seen because they have got all the gear

Can't argue with any of that. If a driver isn't looking properly he's not going to see you whether you're all in black, or dressed in hi vis wally gear with a strobe light equipped codpiece.

I've always like black lids. My first two Arais were plain black (well, the second was pearl black) . As is my RX7 Corsair - looks v cool with black visor on. My Astro is black, silver and pearl white - I like subtle paint jobs, rather than garish. Matches my silver, black and white favourite Furygan jacket well too.

[Madrunner]

My last shoei lid I was forever swapping pin lock inserts for clear to tinted and before that swapping clear and dark visors - what an utter faff.

With the drop down visor it's there when you need it. Perfect solution.

Must agree that id never ride in the rain or dull conditions with a dark visor. Sod that.

[StripleR675]

With the drop down visor it's there when you need it. Perfect solution.

For you maybe. For me they're a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, at the cost of compromised safety. I swap visors once a day, if I stay out after dark, and it takes seconds - there is no faff. If I'm stopping anywhere for more than a couple of minutes then chances are I'll be taking my visor off to clean it anyway.

[fabiamk2SE]

For you maybe. For me they're a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, at the cost of compromised safety. I swap visors once a day, if I stay out after dark, and it takes seconds - there is no faff. If I'm stopping anywhere for more than a couple of minutes then chances are I'll be taking my visor off to clean it anyway.

You take your visor off and clean it when you stop for more than a few minutes? Really?

Do you carry a cleaning kit in a bum bag too?

[littleade]

For you maybe. For me they're a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, at the cost of compromised safety. I swap visors once a day, if I stay out after dark, and it takes seconds - there is no faff. If I'm stopping anywhere for more than a couple of minutes then chances are I'll be taking my visor off to clean it anyway.

Is that just your opinion or is it based on facts from either product testing or real accidents? I ask because I've just bought a Schuberth S2 that has an internal sun visor flip and it has the British racing gold sticker on the back and I find it difficult to believe a manufacturer like them would make something that's 'unsafe' Daytona boots are arriving tomorrow as are my replacement kevlar jeans....

[StripleR675]

You take your visor off and clean it when you stop for more than a few minutes? Really?

Yes. Why wouldn't I. You can't see very well through it when it's covered with flies.

[StripleR675]

Is that just your opinion or is it based on facts from either product testing or real accidents? I ask because I've just bought a Schuberth S2 that has an internal sun visor flip and it has the British racing gold sticker on the back and I find it difficult to believe a manufacturer like them would make something that's 'unsafe' Daytona boots are arriving tomorrow as are my replacement kevlar jeans....

An internal drop down visor occupies space that would otherwise be taken up by EPS liner. If you have less thickness of EPS liner it can't absorb the same amount of energy as a thicker liner. Simple common sense (and the reason Arai refuse to make a helmet with internal drop down visor).

As already said, an ACU gold sticker is meaningless, they're just a fund raiser for the ACU. No additional testing is done.

[Chriswright03]

Before we get too involved in a heated discussion about helmet safety and which one is best.  If you have a proper accident your helmet may stay on your head and it may stay in one piece but it will not prevent you from receiving life threatening injuries.  Obviously there are a lot of injuries that will kill you and being knocked on the head isn't the only one.

 

Your helmet should protect you if you come off and knock your head on something but it isn't guaranteed to because that is impossible and whether it has a few thou thicker protective liner or not will not make much difference.  I have attended and dealt with many motorcycle accidents, many of them fatal sadly and they have all had serious internal injuries and broken bones (neck) whilst the helmet has stayed on (usually) and the head has been protected.

 

Whether the ACU stickers mean anything or not they are still made to the Kite mark and that is through a fairly strong testing regime.

[fabiamk2SE]

An internal drop down visor occupies space that would otherwise be taken up by EPS liner. If you have less thickness of EPS liner it can't absorb the same amount of energy as a thicker liner. Simple common sense (and the reason Arai refuse to make a helmet with internal drop down visor). .

Not sure about the 'common sense bit'

Ive just compared my older shoei (Raid 2 i think it is) with my new Gt-air.

The GT has the shell, a space for the visor and then the thick bit, which im presuming is the EPS liner dangle do. The EPS is the same thickness as the one without, but the helmet itself is a tad thicker because of where the sun visor goes (which with 'common sense' could act as an extra crumple zone?)

Edited 30 September, 2015 by fabiamk2SE

[StripleR675]

If you have a proper accident your helmet may stay on your head and it may stay in one piece but it will not prevent you from receiving life threatening injuries.

.

Tell that to Shinya Nakano

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1pu4a_bike-crash-nakano_news

That's a 200mph crash. I imagine he's rather grateful that Mr Arai tests his helmets for 24 impacts on the same shell, rather than using a new shell for each impact test, like the EC standard testing does (and tests them to a much higher impact force than the EC standard specifies)...

We're not talking of "a few thou" difference - the gap in the Shell for drop down internal visors is usually around 5-10mm. That's a substantial amount of EPS liner (and therefore protection) that you've given up in exchange for a silly gimmick.

Edited 30 September, 2015 by StripleR675

[StripleR675]

 

Whether the ACU stickers mean anything or not they are still made to the Kite mark and that is through a fairly strong testing regime.

No they're not. There is no Bsi standard for crash helmets. It was axed many years ago, replaced by the much less stringent EC standard.

[StripleR675]

Not sure about the 'common sense bit'

Ive just compared my older shoei (Raid 2 i think it is) with my new Gt-air.

The GT has the shell, a space for the visor and then the thick bit, which im presuming is the EPS liner dangle do. The EPS is the same thickness as the one without, but the helmet itself is a tad thicker because of where the sun visor goes (which with 'common sense' could act as an extra crumple zone?)

Helmets "crumple zone" IS the EPS liner. It's a sacrificial liner, collapsing in impact to absorb energy. The job of the shell is to prevent penetration and spread the impact point load across the EPS liner. If there's a gap between shell and EPS liner it can't do that. For any given shell size you have less thickness of EPS liner with a drop down visor than without - that is common sense, and inarguable fact. To maintain the same EPS thickness you would have to make the shell larger than it needs to be, which is also bad for safety - it increases weight (and therefore impact energy in a crash) and increases loads on the neck and spine. The shell should always be as small as possible - the premium helmet manufacturers don't make different shell sizes for different helmet sizes for the fun of it, it would be a lot cheaper just to make one shell size and fill it out with extra padding, like cheap manufacturers often do. Edited 30 September, 2015 by StripleR675

[fabiamk2SE]

Helmets "crumple zone" IS the EPS liner. It's a sacrificial liner, collapsing in impact to absorb energy. The job of the shell is to prevent penetration and spread the impact point load across the EPS liner. If there's a gap between shell and EPS liner it can't do that. For any given shell size you have less thickness of EPS liner with a drop down visor than without - that is common sense, and inarguable fact. To maintain the same EPS thickness you would have to make the shell larger than it needs to be, which is also bad for safety - it increases weight (and therefore impact energy in a crash) and increases loads on the neck and spine. The shell should always be as small as possible - the premium helmet manufacturers don't make different shell sizes for different helmet sizes for the fun of it, it would be a lot cheaper just to make one shell size and fill it out with extra padding, like cheap manufacturers often do.

Cant be that bad if shoei are at it.

They are one of the 2 best manufacturers imo.

The helmet is actually much lighter than my old one still.

Anyway. Im not arsed. Im happy with it (:

[Chriswright03]

I stand corrected about the Kite mark but then guess that the EU would have took over as they do with everything else. I will have to take your word that the test now is not as strict as it was as I do not know one way or the other and certainly am not going to go and research it for the sake of this discussion.

 

As regards the crash that you link to.  It has no bearing whatsoever on a motorcycle accident out on the roads as I am sure you know.  He wasn't rolling towards street furniture, trees, walls or a HGV coming the other way as folk tend to when they come off their bikes out on the road.  We tend not to wear air bag suits as well.  Yes his helmet stayed on and protected his head but that is missing the point by a country mile.  Had that been a road rider I doubt very much from my 'limited' experience of attending such incidents whether he would have been so lucky.

 

In any event it is another area we clearly (forgive the pun) don't agree on so I shall move on.

[StripleR675]

Cant be that bad if shoei are at it.

They are one of the 2 best manufacturers imo.

Which is why I was surprised and disappointed at them for jumping on the silly drop down visor bandwagon. Thankfully Arai agree that it compromises safety, and refuse to do it.

[fabiamk2SE]

Which is why I was surprised and disappointed at them for jumping on the silly drop down visor bandwagon. Thankfully Arai agree that it compromises safety, and refuse to do it.

Im happy for them and you (:

[StripleR675]

As regards the crash that you link to. It has no bearing whatsoever on a motorcycle accident out on the roads as I am sure you know. He wasn't rolling towards street furniture, trees, walls or a HGV coming the other way as folk tend to when they come off their bikes out on the road. We tend not to wear air bag suits as well. Yes his helmet stayed on and protected his head but that is missing the point by a country mile.

No it isn't, it's exactly the point. You said that a helmet won't prevent you from receiving serious or life threatening injuries, which is cobblers - that's exactly what they can do, or there would be no point wearing one. To say that Nakano's crash "has no bearing whatsoever on a motorcycle accident out on the roads" is nonsense. Fortunately I've never had the pleasure of crashing at 200mph,but I have exited bike and said hello tarmac at around 80mph, tumbling down the road in a similar fashion for around a hundred yards (the bike went about 200 yards), banging my head on the floor at least twice (hard enough to scrape through the outer layer of my Arai's shell and expose the woven composite fibres beneath), got up and carried on my journey as a pillion, with nothing more than a bruise on my left hip. Without a helmet I would have been dead, and I wouldn't have wanted to be wearing a lesser manufacturer's offerings either.

If you're unlucky enough to go under a car or hit roadside furniture then of course things get more serious - it's rapid deceleration that causes serious and life threatening injuries (hence a car crash victim can be outwardly unmarked, but dead as a door nail because his internal organs have torn away from where they should be and his aorta's pumped all his claret into his chest cavity), and that's exactly what a good helmet is designed to minimise, spreading the point load via the hard outer shell and slowing the deceleration by means of collapsing the EPS liner. Blunt chest trauma is the second biggest killer in motorcycle accidents, but without helmets there would be an awful lot more fatal accidents than there are currently, so your assertion that they don't prevent life threatening injuries just doesn't hold water.

Oh, he wasn't wearing an airbag suit either, for the record, just good old fashioned cow skin.

Edited 30 September, 2015 by StripleR675

[StripleR675]

Im happy for them and you (:

Me too, since I wouldn't wear any other brand. I'd trust a Shoei without drop down visor, but Arai fit me better, and Shoei's visor mechanism is pants.