Endurance of microwaves ?

[Clunkclick]

My 4 year old  Panasonic combination oven has recently started to show signs of failure - horrible buzzing noises and occasional smoke during operation (Power filtering capacitors ? ), an intermitment "No-start, Lights off, no power" and intermitment sub-standard microwave heating. Although its still useable in an unrealible sort of way,  I anticipate that its going to go futt any time and continued use, especially in the heavy power consumption combination mode (Grill + MW) runs a possible fire risk hazard.

 

I am more than a bit disappointed, given that I have only had 4 years out of it and that previous, less expensive machines, yielded, retrospectively,  useful lives of 8 years (Sanyo) and  20 years (Swan). But, from my reading of recent internet posts 4 years is about standard  expectation for this model i.e. ****-poor - IMHO it really does a once reliable brand down.

 

Whilst there appear to be plenty of  UK sources of spares for this device (UK private equity capital never misses a trick !)  they are pricey and there's no guarentee, in the case of home repair, that my amateur diagnosis will be right first time or that replacing one component won't lead to additional consequential down-stream failures as similarly spec'd existing components fail when having to deal with the output from a new component.  Also, as I suspect that  recent poor life term on many Jap consumer products is linked to the floundering state of the Jap economy over the last 25 years, with no sign of early improvement, what's the point of making a repair or returning to this manufacturer.

 

So home repair is discounted on technical and financial grounds, and dealer repair will just be Home Repair, cost-plus if you can find one and one that's not a rip-off merchant.

 

So it looks like I'm into getting  a new one - ideally something that will last a bit longer, that's sub "Family" size and "Slim-line"

 

Further, I am not liking the current fad for "Inverter" technology. It seems, and has proved to be,  far less reliable, enduring and,  dare-I-say, is more dangerous than predecessor technologies.  Also, I'm not particularly impressed with manufacturers and regulation authorities that allow at 17 amp current to flow over cabling rated at 15 amp to a plastic safety cut-out switch on the door that would probably melt in a sweaty hand-hold.

 

Any ideas ?

 

 

Cheers.

 

 

Nick

Edited 23 July, 2015 by Clunkclick

[kilted]

Good luck trying to find anything electronic that will last a decent length of time.

 

I am not sure if they are purposefully designed to fail at a certain point or if the manufacturing standards are so crap that they just do fail.

[jlwah]

I also think that white goods are getting more complicated and do more functions, so they're only as reliable as their weakest function.

 

Our first Sharp microwave, circa 1985 is still going strong (not with us any more, but we know the present owners) but it was a simple microwave that was used for either de-frosting in a hurry or cooking frozen veg. Nowadays they have multiple modes for all manner of cooking / reheating / grilling / roasting activities so it's perhaps little wonder that they aren't so reliable.

 

We've just replaced our Panasonic microwave (microwave only) after approximately 8 years, with an updated version of the same model.

 

Our Neff double oven blew the controller for the main oven after just 10 years and Neff couldn't provide a replacement part as they don't guarantee to support appliances after 8 years. The failed part on ours was obviously a problem part and hence Neff had run out of spares. We ended up getting a replacement oven off eBay for £80.

[999pooch]

Sharp microwaves are generally more durable than other 'premium' brands, and are usually at or near the top of all review websites. They do seem to last much, much longer.

As far as inverter technology goes, it's not so much a fad, but better technology. I would rather have a cooker that cooks at 50% power than one that cooks on 100% power for 50% of the time whether it lasts longer is another argument

[RichardatWakefield]

Have you tried Googling "microwave repairers" plus your postcode? You don't say where you are. I found a guy locally who really should be retired, yet keeps doing repairs to both domestic and commercial catering microwave ovens, and with his help (and a guy at Chadderton when I lived "across the hills") have kept my elderly Zanussi plodding along, it gets a lot of use, bachelor-style "cooking".....!

 

And you've set me thinking, mine now sometimes goes into a loud buzzing mode after several minutes' use. Oo er! Still, this one was a freebie from a friend, and there's a spare under the stairs, very kindly left by the previous home owners when they sold the house to me!!

 

Richard

[GentleGiant]

They are all built down to a price these day - at least the domestic ones - I dont know how well built the £1,000 commercial jobs are these days.

 

I agree they are getting worse, my old Pifco only got consigned to the scrap heap a few months ago because of the interior starting to rust - I had owned it for just over 15 faultless years; its Samsung replacement does not inspire confidence, the door is extremely flimsy and it has buzzed from day one.

It also takes LONGER to heat things that the Pifco, despite having a supposedly much higher power rating.

[Aspman]

There will be a Mean Time to Failure like everything else. Probably measured in hours for microwaves.

 

Most people will be in the middle of the road near the predicted MTF but some people will inevitably be the ones with early failures and some people will have appliances that seem to last forever.

[cassoude]

There will be a Mean Time to Failure like everything else. Probably measured in hours for microwaves.

 

Most people will be in the middle of the road near the predicted MTF but some people will inevitably be the ones with early failures and some people will have appliances that seem to last forever.

Probability distribution curve - works in all manner of things!

[dbg400]

We are on our second Panasonic slimline combination. The first went bang (quite literally - lots of sparks & smoke) after only a couple of years. We reverted to our previous microwave-only Panasonic (dumped in the garage in the interim) that still ran fine after 10+ years. We bought another one five years or so ago and that has been playing up for the last six months. The light turns off and the turntable just revolves slowly with a blank display. It dose the same after restarting it, unless we leave it unplugged for 10 minutes. It happens randomly, and we can't find a reason why. We like the size & functions, but as you say, it's not very reliable.

[Clunkclick]

Thanks for the replies. The situation is much as I thought.

 

By the sound of it I might be getting even more trouble buying a new one.

 

I think I'll try a repair, as my all-in estimate of repair is sub £100, an equivalent new one is anything from £170 to £240 and the rest of the existing  unit is in good condition.

 

The annoying thing is that, at the moment, the quartz bulb, which provides the heat for the oven and grill is functioning perfectly OK. And the microwave (i.e. the magnetron) works OK on its own, and all the separate programmed functions available from the front panel seem to actuate,  but as soon as you couple the quartz bulb with the microwave, then you tend to get the noise and smoke. This suggests to me that its a power supply problem. And  its seems logical also that the intermitment power losses to the turntable and oven illumination may be a consequence of this power supply problem.

 

I think I may have a go at removing the lid and swapping out both the inverter (Including the diode) and the power smoothing unit. Apparently, its quite simple to do and the parts are about £45 and £20 respectively at Partmaster/Buyspares. And whilst I'm at it I'll replace the turntable motor (£15) which I think has been damaged. I'm assuming that the diode, which must be a heavyweight job, is included in the inverter spares package. I'd just have to cross my fingers whilst doing this cause the Quartz bulb and the magnetron don't appear to be available as spares (There's a surprise).

 

A You Tube video, of US authorship, that I found stated that the buzzing sound originated from the large polyester capacitors that are part of the power smoothing unit - the author, who clearly was at least a competent home el;ectrician stated he had never come across Poly caps that hummed/buzzed - metal caps, yes, but not poly caps. I presume that this unit smooths the output from the inverter that feeds the magnetron and quartz bulb

 

The marketing philosophy of designing down to a price has got to be commercial suicide, hasn't it ? Eventually, people will get thoroughly ****ed-off having to replace everything at 4 year intervals and just revert to conventional hobs and ovens - something which the  boardroom and marketeer pillocks would only appreciate as a reduction in a revenue stream and under-sweated production assets ! 

 

Consumer products like these are fast approaching the role of a consumer tax levied by multi-nationals on populations. There's very little labour saving or convenience on offer.

 

Now, if George wants to make saving in the National economy, there's one. Lets make the crap electronics over here, to better British standards, to a 10 year life spec. Huge impact on the existing balance of payments deficit. Oh no, of course he can't, he wouldn't get any further invitations to the Davos boys and bankers tea parties.

 

Nick

Edited 23 July, 2015 by Clunkclick

[camelspyyder]

Electrical retailers work around these figures. 4 years is in the bracket for a nuker.

 

http://www.retra.co.uk/life-expectancy-of-electronic-equipment/

[GentleGiant]

The marketing philosophy of designing down to a price has got to be commercial suicide, hasn't it ? Eventually, people will get thoroughly ****ed-off having to replace everything at 4 year intervals and just revert to conventional hobs and ovens - something which the  boardroom and marketeer pillocks would only appreciate as a reduction in a revenue stream and under-sweated production assets ! 

 

I saw an industry spokesman admit on TV that the lifespan of the cheaper "White Goods" (washing machines, FFs, dishwashers, ovens and microwaves, etc), is now as low as 3 years; I disagree with him, it is NOT just the cheap stuff. I had a rather expensive induction hob that died after barely 2 years of domestic use. The repair estimate was close to the cost of buying the damned thing.

Edited 24 July, 2015 by GentleGiant

[Clunkclick]

Where's the utility to the consumer in that ?

 

Its just another **** Turpin, trade staple, "Hold-you-to ransom", economic terrorist,  multinational tax and huge ecological burden imposed by the Davos boys.

Along with overpriced housing, failing health care system, stuffed transport logistics and absence of effective Government policy on anything. 

 

Truly a significant marker that global capitalism has taken a wrong turn over the last 30 years. And all facilitated by the growth in  consumer disposable income (Which according to theory is supposed to put things on the right side), particularly the lower income groups. Whereas,  in times past these manufacturers were beholden to a few middle income earners and daren't let their standards  (And reputation) slip for fear of generating a serious decline in sales, now, with mass marketing, global markets and PR spinners they couldn't give a stuff as its all about maximising gross revenue streams and **** customer utility if you get a fall in revenue in one World region due to disenchanted consumers, you just up-sticks and go elsewhere and start flogging the patent medicine/shell game to a more naïve, less discerning group of customers - a very white male attitude.Is that progress ?

 

Ralph Naeder and organised regular product boycotts come back, and give these Davos sponsored economic and ecological terrorists a kick-up the arse. Please !

 

 

In my researches, I did come across the following. Very interesting if you've got a couple of hours:-

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQANlSd0d4s

 

Before, all the holocaust deniers start popping-up, its useful to note that this bloke  actually puts the sword to the idea that kitchen tin foil is proof against microwave radiation - apparently its got too many atomic-level holes in it, what you need is the reflective stuff used behind radiators.

 

 

Nick

Edited 24 July, 2015 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Prac/repair_cap.htm

 

"As a capacitor ages, its electrolytic series resistance (ESR) increases. If the capacitor forms part of a power supply then higher ESR results in worse smoothing and the ripple voltage increases. Higher levels of ripple will be heard as "Hum" at line frequency. Line frequency is 50Hz for UK and Europe and 60Hz in North America."

 

I suspect that the advice contained in the last paragraph of this article probably applies to the dysfunction in my kit, as well as a lot of others.

 

I take it that the manufacturers are limiting the life-time of domestic consumer electricals by the simple act of installing short-lifed capacitors i.e. same as it was 10-12 years ago with motherboards.

 

And, I further presume that if delivered power output becomes increasing unstable with age, then presumably, as an added bonus,  all the other components down-line, i.e. in my case the magnetron and quartz bulb are damaged before the power supply unit does its party piece and expires.

 

 

Nick

[GentleGiant]

It could be down to poor circuit design (deliberate or not), circuits should be designed so the component ageing cancels out; I have an early 1970s AM/FM receiver that still works, although a few of the switches need a good clean with electrical contact cleaner.

[gadgetman]

Electrical retailers work around these figures. 4 years is in the bracket for a nuker.

http://www.retra.co.uk/life-expectancy-of-electronic-equipment/

Consumer law is your friend if under 6 years. But then I thought you'd know that Nick.

If it doesn't sound right and is smoking, why are you still using it?

[VWD]

For help on diagnosis ,try http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/forumsphpbb3/

Forum run by white goods engineers to help us consumers. There's also a section on what they consider a decent buy. As for invertor technology - how do you thing the magnetron ( thing that produces microwaves ) gets the extremely high voltages needed to work? Can't remember the figure, but I seem to remember it's in order of Kilo(=1000's) of volts.

One thing to look out for in any new microwave, is something like a stainless interior. During use, the food cooking gives off steam. In enameled interiors, the steam condenses and if door closed immediately after use, this turns to water and corrodes the enamel,leading to buzzing as microwaves strike conductive surfaces, short out and burn off yet more enamel.. Cure is to leave door open to allow steam to escape. OR, buy one with stainless interior.

[GentleGiant]

That consumer law is a bit vague - go look at the wording; by publicly stating the average life of white goods under £300 is 3 years, the industry can wiggle out of any claims beyond that.

 

Samsung are using a different interior coating that is supposed to be better than SS for cleaning, and better than enamel for corrosion.

[DanGum]

My parents Panasonic microwave is still going strong 23 years later. Things these days aren't built to last anymore

[Aspman]

If you could buy a microwave for £500 that will last for 10yr

Or a similar one for £120 that will last for 3yr

 

Most people will chose the latter and government will encourage that via greenwash.

[camelspyyder]

Or buy the cheapest £30 one and throw it away when it fails every 2-3 years.

 

This works with Tumble dryers and washers too. Cheaper to buy new than fork out on the service contracts.

Edited 27 July, 2015 by camelspyyder

[pikpilot]

In my experience, buzzing and smoke is due to impending failure of the mica cover over the "window" that lets the microwaves into the cooking area.

 

You can replace this sheet mica filled material easily yourself. I bought a large sheet of the correct microwave window cover from espares for very little. You cut it to size using the old one as a guide. 

 

If it fails, then moisture and cooking/cleaning mess can get into the workings and you have a bigger failure.

[dbg400]

FWIW Lidl have a similar microwave to the Panasonic on offer from Thursday - http://www.lidl.co.uk/en/our-offers-2491.htm?action=showDetail&id=25761 - grill + convection + microwave. It's a little smaller than our Panasonic (25 litres vs 27) but only £80 with a three year warranty.

[GentleGiant]

Lidl used to do great electrical goods, but in the last couple of years it has been a bit hit-n-miss; I took their dashcam back last week - it was rubbish.

Edited 2 August, 2015 by GentleGiant

[rum4mo]

What you need to use with a leaky microwave oven is a simple screen of RAM - or maybe an exclusion zone painted on the kitchen floor, with barriers of course and a dosage detector for the "cook" so that she stays around to cook for a few more years.