Which brings us neatly back round to VW diesels, super-efficient engines with consequent high NOx issues.  Thermodynamics can be a bugger sometimes.

Mercedes were right sooo long ago when they initiated (?) the SCR system and I'm amazed it didn't spread more rapidly......was it protected by exclusive rights I wonder; it would have saved VW such a disastrous loss of reputation not to mention the coming crippling fines.

I wouldn't hesitate over an SCR equipped vehicle as it seems you can exploit its benefits and then deal with the consequences downstream.

All these sorts of vehicles are being force-ably converted to run on cleared fuel and/or use less by being hybrid though not heard much about the construction side and I do some work with that side.  My giant logistic company I work for are transforming our fleet to hybrids where we work in the polluted cities with high NOX which the main culprit is diesel engined vehicles which are not fitted with SCR/Ad blu system.  Establishment of LEZ and ULEZs will restrict the high output NOX vehicles in the big cities and improve air quality to drastically cut the premature deaths largely caused by such vehicles.  

 

A lot of school buses / garbage trucks  in the US have been converted to use CNG.  

You say about diesels. And ok nox is higher than stated. But if thats the case what abt buses, planes which are in nearly every city? Will the be banned? I think not

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk

 

The hybrid buses in London have been effectively not hybrids.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-33569460

Mercedes were right sooo long ago when they initiated (?) the SCR system and I'm amazed it didn't spread more rapidly......was it protected by exclusive rights I wonder; it would have saved VW such a disastrous loss of reputation not to mention the coming crippling fines.

I wouldn't hesitate over an SCR equipped vehicle as it seems you can exploit its benefits and then deal with the consequences downstream.

 

Is this the same system that Mercedes now admit is reduced in effectiveness at 15 degrees and is totally disabled at 10 degrees. 

 

The current EU test are performed at 22 degrees so Merc can pass them no problem but tests in the Netherlands have proven they kick out up to 40 times the NOx limit when the temperature drops.

 

Lee

Is this the same system that Mercedes now admit is reduced in effectiveness at 15 degrees and is totally disabled at 10 degrees. 

 

The current EU test are performed at 22 degrees so Merc can pass them no problem but tests in the Netherlands have proven they kick out up to 40 times the NOx limit when the temperature drops.

 

Lee

If that is true Merc is running out of time to do something about it as, surely the CARB isn't going to look the other way like possibly European regulators 'facilitating' their own industry have seemingly been doing for many years.

Why would SCR be introduced by VW this late if it didn't work on their own back door at average European temps ..?....unless regulators are 'in-on-it'!

It's very confusing

70% of NOx pollution at Heathrow is from planes, come on, I showed you the chart produced by the airport themselves. If you must keep on about adding runways, at least give the full picture about how that might affect NOx locally.

 

And if you look back at that thread I pointed out that in the areas people actually live within a mile or Heathrow two-thirds of the pollution is from land vehicles not aircraft.  

 

Nobody lives at Heathrow, I work there, sometimes up to 40 hours a week at the freight transit sheds but the pollution at our remote transit shed at Feltham ie a mile from Heathrow is equally bad and there are hundreds of thousands of people living at Feltham, Harmanworth, Hayes and Hounslow.   Nobody actually "lives" at Heathrow ie only worked and hotels stay there for a time.

 

The Third Runaway would reduce local pollution by 11% as it would allow the larger more fuel efficient planes to land in the UK.  Putting the M25 underground for a mile or two means the non-compliant on emissions diesels would go through the tunnel and the tunnel air filtration system could scrub the NOX pollution from the extracted air below venting it to atmosphere.  

 

Planes are improving rapidly on their emissions output as is public transport, taxi, delivery trucks and the remaining dirty diesel private cars need to do their part by being SCR fitted or not enter the ULEZ unless the truly meet the 80, or preferably less ie something like 40 mg/Km like most petrols do so we can cut they shamefully number of premature deaths of the young, old and those with breathing difficulties.   

Edited 12 February, 201610 yr by lol-lol

I would be more worried about being so poor I was forced to live on one of those arterial roads bordering Heathrow.....they are sewers of pollution.

How about an eYeti also?.......

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102333_next-volkswagen-e-golf-to-have-at-least-200-miles-of-range

For those into aircraft emissions

https://theconversation.com/the-planned-aviation-emissions-rules-will-just-delay-the-heavy-lifting-until-later-54475?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%204284&utm_content=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%204284+CID_b5cf3574d4ac8b00c6d06d54819f8a03&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=The%20planned%20aviation%20emissions%20rules%20will%20just%20delay%20the%20heavy%20lifting%20until%20later

If that is true Merc is running out of time to do something about it as, surely the CARB isn't going to look the other way like possibly European regulators 'facilitating' their own industry have seemingly been doing for many years.

Why would SCR be introduced by VW this late if it didn't work on their own back door at average European temps ..?....unless regulators are 'in-on-it'!

It's very confusing

 

SCR can be made to work at any European temperatures and at all loads but it adds complexity, requires much larger catalysts, increases the initial cost of the engine and requires the use of much more adblue than current scr eqipped engines use. 

That's why PSA lobbied for relaxing the 2017 tests as the added cost to buy and run diesels will hit the small cheap diesel vehicles the hardest. 

SCR can be made to work at any European temperatures and at all loads but it adds complexity, requires much larger catalysts, increases the initial cost of the engine and requires the use of much more adblue than current scr eqipped engines use.

That's why PSA lobbied for relaxing the 2017 tests as the added cost to buy and run diesels will hit the small cheap diesel vehicles the hardest.

So much for the 'affordable' clean diesel then.....(((

Time's running out.....

On that basis, Mercedes (BMW) out here are even more affordable.......unless we get the not-so-clean versions(?)

Edited 12 February, 201610 yr by Ryeman

There you go, not good pr, that's for sure....

Polluted air causes 5.5m deaths a year new research says

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-35568249

So much for the 'affordable' clean diesel then.....(((

Time's running out.....

On that basis, Mercedes (BMW) out here are even more affordable.......unless we get the not-so-clean versions(?)

 

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/mercedes-rejects-real-world-nox-criticism 

 

Real-world tests have recorded the Mercedes C-Class C220 TDi BlueTec emitting 40 times more NOx than the legal limit in laboratory tests. However, Mercedes says the results are a consequence of real-world tests not reflecting official procedures, primarily because of the low ambient temperature during the test.

The tests were conducted by Holland’s Organisation for Applied Science Research (TNO) on behalf of the Dutch Minister of the Environment.

Mercedes says the discrepancy is partly down to the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) process operating differently between five and seven degrees centigrade, a process it says is aimed at protecting the EGR cooler. Official laboratory tests that define whether a car is legal are conducted at 22 degrees centigrade.

Mercedes says this practice is fully legal, and that it is required to ensure the regulated requirement of delivering full functionality of the exhaust gas after-treatment system up to at least 160,000 kilometres. However, critics, while accepting the legality of the system, have suggested that such a device should be banned as it means the cars are hugely more polluting in low temperatures.

A Mercedes statement read: “Daimler AG once again absolutely rejects the inherent accusation of manipulation. Mercedes-Benz vehicles fully comply with the national regulations in force at the time of vehicle registration.

“We absolutely reject speculation or interpretation that possible deviations between test-bench measurements and measurements made during real driving conditions can only be explained by manipulation. No defeat device, ie a function that improperly restricts the effectiveness of exhaust-gas after-treatment, is used by Mercedes-Benz. Neither do Mercedes-Benz vehicles have a function that automatically recognises when a vehicle is being tested.”

However, as a consequence of the claims, a pressure group in Germany, Deutsche Umwelt Hilfe, has called on Germany’s automotive regulator Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt (KBA) to withdraw the EU-wide type approval for all diesel-powered C-Class models, or have the cars banned from all inner cities when temperatures drop below 10 degrees centigrade.

If type approval were withdrawn, affected cars would have to be taken off sale.

 

Lee

Edited 13 February, 201610 yr by logiclee

Me thinks there's a war going on behind closed doors

I would be more worried about being so poor I was forced to live on one of those arterial roads bordering Heathrow.....they are sewers of pollution.

 

It is London prices so quarter of a million pound for a horrible two up two down or a thousand pound a month rent for a room and a shared bathroom as well as breathing polluted air 168 hours a week.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/mercedes-rejects-real-world-nox-criticism 

 

Real-world tests have recorded the Mercedes C-Class C220 TDi BlueTec emitting 40 times more NOx than the legal limit in laboratory tests. However, Mercedes says the results are a consequence of real-world tests not reflecting official procedures, primarily because of the low ambient temperature during the test.

The tests were conducted by Holland’s Organisation for Applied Science Research (TNO) on behalf of the Dutch Minister of the Environment.

Mercedes says the discrepancy is partly down to the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) process operating differently between five and seven degrees centigrade, a process it says is aimed at protecting the EGR cooler. Official laboratory tests that define whether a car is legal are conducted at 22 degrees centigrade.

Mercedes says this practice is fully legal, and that it is required to ensure the regulated requirement of delivering full functionality of the exhaust gas after-treatment system up to at least 160,000 kilometres. However, critics, while accepting the legality of the system, have suggested that such a device should be banned as it means the cars are hugely more polluting in low temperatures.

A Mercedes statement read: “Daimler AG once again absolutely rejects the inherent accusation of manipulation. Mercedes-Benz vehicles fully comply with the national regulations in force at the time of vehicle registration.

“We absolutely reject speculation or interpretation that possible deviations between test-bench measurements and measurements made during real driving conditions can only be explained by manipulation. No defeat device, ie a function that improperly restricts the effectiveness of exhaust-gas after-treatment, is used by Mercedes-Benz. Neither do Mercedes-Benz vehicles have a function that automatically recognises when a vehicle is being tested.”

However, as a consequence of the claims, a pressure group in Germany, Deutsche Umwelt Hilfe, has called on Germany’s automotive regulator Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt (KBA) to withdraw the EU-wide type approval for all diesel-powered C-Class models, or have the cars banned from all inner cities when temperatures drop below 10 degrees centigrade.

If type approval were withdrawn, affected cars would have to be taken off sale.

 

Lee

 

The reason for these failures was known even when Catalytic Convertors were brought in a quarter of a century ago.  But this is why the small (sub litre) petrol cars are so consistent meeting the test both in the lab and on the road but larger petrol and virtual all diesel engines do not meet the real emissions when the ambient is 20,15,10,5, zero and below because they are not getting the whole combustion and post combustion system up to working range.  

Edited 13 February, 201610 yr by lol-lol

The petrol engine to be used in the coming to a Kia Showroom near us all soon, Kia Niro Hybrid sounds interesting.

The petrol engine to be used in the coming to a Kia Showroom near us all soon, Kia Niro Hybrid sounds interesting.

 

In my view still too many cylinders,  We should be moving as to 3 cylinders, then 2 and then 1 cylinder ASAP.

 

We know a car only needs around a 25 Kw of contant energy supply, not to difficult to supply from a single cylinder engine.

 

Driving at 70 only needs around 10Kw.  Even driving up long hills only requires 20-25 Kws.  

 

Temporary supply of additional 100 Kws needed for acceleration can come from electrical units which they recharges after the acceleration phase once the speed plateau or hill crest is reached.

 

Emission compliant as it will run at optimum temperature.  Reckon it would do 100 km on a litre or less.  Not easy to sell as too many buyers still obsessed by cubic centimeters.           

Or those that started there days in motorised transport on 50cc 2 Strokes, then single cylinder four strokes, 3 Cylinder Kettles,

then Twin Cylinder cars, Air Cooled etc.

Its like going back to the future.

 

Try a drive in a BMW i3 with Range extender when you have no battery power left.

...................................

DAS AUTO no more!

'Then, Now, Always'.    

Nostalgia, advertising and legal costs and everybody loves us again.

Edited 13 February, 201610 yr by GoneOffskiroottoot

Or those that started there days in motorised transport on 50cc 2 Strokes, then single cylinder four strokes, 3 Cylinder Kettles,

then Twin Cylinder cars, Air Cooled etc.

Its like going back to the future.

Try a drive in a BMW i3 with Range extender when you have no battery power left.

 

That is why I think the internal combustion engine still has a place but all that is needed is around 250cc, a petrol (or diesel) tank of around 25 litres which would probably only need filling up at service internal.  

 

I remember riding the FSIE (50 mph 50 cc, took a minute or so to get there).  MBX80, Enfield Bullet, various twin cylinder 2 and 4 stokes, it was the Kawasaki H1F for me.  But then lots of 4 cylinder Jap stuff and even riding 6 cylinders bike like CBXs when working for Piper.  Oh and Norton air and ware cooled twin rotor w*nkels for good measure, bit like 12 cylinders. Favour cars and bikes are either 3 or 6 cylinder at the moment ie Yahama MT09, Dacia/Renault TCE and the V6 Jaaag.  But to save the planet I will drop to one cylinder or even a Tesla, might carry a portable genny though. 

That is why I think the internal combustion engine still has a place but all that is needed is around 250cc, a petrol (or diesel) tank of around 25 litres which would probably only need filling up at service internal.  

It's called a BMW Isetta with a 250cc single cylinder. 

It would be so practical as I rush off to a customer 250 miles away with all the tools and spare parts on board. :think:

You get the to use a Jawa 350 Outifit (Jupiter 5 with 12 Volt Conversion) 350 2 Stroke with Sidecar. )

Runs on Aero Fuel & Transformer oil.

It's called a BMW Isetta with a 250cc single cylinder. 

It would be so practical as I rush off to a customer 250 miles away with all the tools and spare parts on board. :think:

 

If you had one cylinder of an modern BMW, such as one cylinder from a i8, that is 77hp, with the 96kws /130 hp from an i8s electric motors, you would have considerably horsepower than a 1.6 CR and a Fabia HTP put together my figuring. "You do the Maths" as some say.  

 

You would get to your destination quicker and with less lethal NOX pollution. (HTP is not too bad on NOX I recall from the log book though annoying over 120 on CO2 so DVLA tell me each month for the road tax.)

If you had one cylinder of an modern BMW, such as one cylinder from a i8, that is 77hp, with the 96kws /130 hp from an i8s electric motors, you would have considerably horsepower than a 1.6 CR and a Fabia HTP put together my figuring. "You do the Maths" as some say.  

 

You would get to your destination quicker and with less lethal NOX pollution. (HTP is not too bad on NOX I recall from the log book though annoying over 120 on CO2 so DVLA tell me each month for the road tax.)

So, if I pull two plug leads of of the HTP it will be an eco rocket ship????????????

What RPM will a one cylinder engine run at? 

if single cylinder engines are the answers to our power and pollution  requirements why are no major car manufactures building them?

Taking  a three cylinder engine and dividing the HP by three doesn't actually work out. Put a 500cc engine in a motorcycle it will be good, try it in a 10 tonne truck and see how it does.

Number of cylinders has no relation to amount of NOx generated by an engine AFAIK.