"Cometh the hour, cometh the man....."

[vRSgone]

Seldom since the days of Churchill have I heard a speech delivered with such passion, such conviction & such eloquence.

 He must have wrestled with his conscious long & hard before delivering the coup de grace, that surely swayed many of the doubters from both sides of the house. Who knows the pressure he was under behind the scenes to vote against the motion?

I am not a Labour man, but I could comfortably live with this guy at the helm, at which ever boat he sails - red or blue.

But then his pedigree is excellent derived from a father of equal passion & conviction, but I fear old Wedgie would have turned  in his grave - if he was alive now, if he had heard his son last night.

[lol-lol]

Is not hillary his grandson?

Cancelled my Labour party membership last night.

Do not want civilian blood on my hands with 500lb bombs dropped.

Major recruitment coup for IS cause everywhere.

Back to square one, another empire backfire.

[cheezemonkhai]

Is not hillary his grandson?

Cancelled my Labour party membership last night.

Do not want civilian blood on my hands with 500lb bombs dropped.

Major recruitment coup for IS cause everywhere.

Back to square one, another empire backfire.

 

If he didn't give a free vote, he was going to end up with a bit of a problem with his own front bench.

At the end of the day corbyn made his point and reasonably well as did other people on both sides.

 

There is no empire thing going on here, and it's about time we stopped apologising for having had an empire.

We're already bombing iraq and IS, so extending it to syria and IS isn't really a recruiting coup.

 

Then you have the fact that actually on this a free vote should be required by all parties.

People on both sides voted against their party, but then that's going with their conscience.

 

I'm sure your membership won't be missed, but frankly I don't get why you cancelled it.

The party stood against the extension of bombing, but didn't whip their MPs. This is not a bad thing.

[Aspman]

I don't object to the bombing because I'm squeamish I object because I don't believe it will achieve anything.

 

I understand the action is more symbolic than practical but I think more could be achieved by attacking Daesh financially or technologically.

 

I think Anonymous actually have more chance of making an impact than HMG.

 

This will go to hell in a hand basket as usual because the politics is in the way. Who is stopping funding for Daesh?

Why is Turkey buying their oil and no one doing anything, what about other Arab states why are they not stepping in to save their Muslim brothers. They can take action without accusations of a 3rd crusade from the West.

Who is selling weapons to Daesh?

Who holds their money, they're not sitting on piles of gold paying for missiles with cash.

[theezenutz]

Something I found interesting is how people have made comments about IS liking Toyota land cruisers.

I came across a video a little while back talking about levels of uk humanitarian aid, one of the talking points was about dfid and £4.5 million aid programme. Well a couple of years ago I was fitting a vehicle lift in one of their distribution depots, in this warehouse there must of been between 20-30 brand spanking new white Toyota land cruisers fitted with armour plating, gps guidence ect.

I wonder if that is just a coincidence?

[lol-lol]

If he didn't give a free vote, he was going to end up with a bit of a problem with his own front bench.

At the end of the day corbyn made his point and reasonably well as did other people on both sides.

There is no empire thing going on here, and it's about time we stopped apologising for having had an empire.

We're already bombing iraq and IS, so extending it to syria and IS isn't really a recruiting coup.

Then you have the fact that actually on this a free vote should be required by all parties.

People on both sides voted against their party, but then that's going with their conscience.

I'm sure your membership won't be missed, but frankly I don't get why you cancelled it.

The party stood against the extension of bombing, but didn't whip their MPs. This is not a bad thing.

 

I fully expect thousands of Labour party members to resign.

 I am just sorry that I do not have a party to go to that has decency at their core ie Plaid Cymru or the SNP.

[skomaz]

Yes - was intersting to watch last night and do a compare and contrast of Corbyn and Hilary Benn.  Benn was far more the orator and leader than Corbyn will ever be and I do think the latter is a dead man walking at the moment, with Benn a top contender as a replacement.

[Aspman]

Yes - was intersting to watch last night and do a compare and contrast of Corbyn and Hilary Benn.  Benn was far more the orator and leader than Corbyn will ever be and I do think the latter is a dead man walking at the moment, with Benn a top contender as a replacement.

 

Something has to give but I'm not sure what.

 

Corbyn is clearly from a different planet to many of his fellow Labour MPs but then they are maybe not very representative of the wider party or the voters.

[Clunkclick]

Forget the "Historic speeches". Judge the actions.

 

So ask, why now ?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/12027936/Oil-speculators-risk-short-squeeze-if-impulsive-Saudi-Prince-throws-OPEC-surprise.html

 

Ah ha, possibly ?

 

 

Nick

[sdenny]

I fully expect thousands of Labour party members to resign

All the ones who joined just to vote in Corbin in the hope he'd destroy the party for a start....

[vRSgone]

Is not hillary his grandson?

Cancelled my Labour party membership last night.

Do not want civilian blood on my hands with 500lb bombs dropped.

Major recruitment coup for IS cause everywhere.

Back to square one, another empire backfire.

 

Nope. Hilary is definitely Wedgie's son.

 

I'm not a warmonger, but we do need to stand shoulder to shoulder with the French, just as we did in WW2 (not that we got any thanks for it).

There is bound to be co-lateral damage with aerial bombing, but the only alternative is hand to hand fighting a la WW1. KIlling innocent civilians is an unfortunate by product of modern warfare.

[lol-lol]

All the ones who joined just to vote in Corbin in the hope he'd destroy the party for a start....

 

Well I voted for Burnham in the leader election but I will not be associated with a party where a significant number support bombing which will certainly kill hundreds if not thousands of civilians as it did in Afghanistan, Iraq, Liyba and now Syria, plus will cost hundreds of millions of pounds, plus put British servicemen and women lives at risk and will actually only make the situation worse in my opinion.

Edited 3 December, 2015 by lol-lol

[Chorlton]

He's certainly an eloquent and confident performer, I'm sure his father would've been proud of his performance if not the content.  And top marks for calling out Cameron to apologise for his "terrorist sympathiser" comments.  However, sometimes the best speeches make the worst arguments.

 

A bombing campaign alone will not defeat IS, thousands of troops on the ground  are needed and even that may not work, you can't fight a conventiional war against an unconventional enemy.  I don't think any one nation has got a clue on how to deal with them.  Alas, there will not be a coherent response as all the players have their own agendas.

 

This will rumble on for years and years and I fully expect another Chilcot style enquiry when it all goes pear shaped.

[KenONeill]

Well I voted for Burnham in the leader election but I will not be associated with a party where a significant number support bombing which will certainly kill hundreds if not thousands of civilians as it did in Afghanistan, Iraq, Liyba and now Syria, plus will cost hundreds of millions of pounds, plus put British servicemen and women lives at risk and will actually only make the situation worse in my opinion.

You could start the Worcestershire branch of the SNP then.

[Wet Kipper]

I fully expect thousands of Labour party members to resign.

 I am just sorry that I do not have a party to go to that has decency at their core ie Plaid Cymru or the SNP.

 

don't let your nationality or addres stop you from joining/ supporting one of those parties.

It didn't stop Stan Collymore:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34994157

[Clunkclick]

Off topic, you can see why MOD targeted the Omar field:-

 

http://ig.ft.com/sites/2015/isis-oil/

 

Output 13,000 barrels a day @ $45 a barrel = $585,000 a day. That's about 45% of the reported IS daily income from oil.

 

But, UK is "Johnny-come-lately" to the US who are reported to have been hitting the fields since October - and that includes the use of B-1 Lancers (Wonder if they weren't precision bombing).

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/13/us/politics/us-steps-up-its-attacks-on-isis-controlled-oil-fields-in-syria.html?_r=0

 

"Every little helps" as the Saudi Oil Minster says.

 

 

Media over here has kept very quiet about that.

 

Nick

Edited 3 December, 2015 by Clunkclick

[moley]

I fully expect thousands of Labour party members to resign.

I am just sorry that I do not have a party to go to that has decency at their core ie Plaid Cymru or the SNP.

Labour allowed it's MP's to vote how they wanted to, which is a democracy. A democracy is something you won't get with IS.

[theezenutz]

 

 

Hilary isn't a patch on his father this is the speech he should of made instead he has become a poster boy for the warmongershttps://youtu.be/VXOciOnoxlU

 

https://youtu.be/E21MdXe3BOQ

 

Edited 3 December, 2015 by theezenutz

[lol-lol]

Labour allowed it's MP's to vote how they wanted to, which is a democracy. A democracy is something you won't get with IS.

 

I, and probably millions of Labour and other UK citizens, deeply regret this flawed action that has time after time shown to be folly.

 

As to UK democracy, it is an illusion, we have a government with only 36% of the votes but over 50% of the seats, virtual control of the press.

 

Where ever we live and work, and I have lived and worked in many countries, including a many weeks in Iraq, Saudi, UAE, Canada, US, Australia and European countries, and lost a Kurdish friend in the Iraq-Iran war, forced to fight as he as also Navy.  No good will come. 

Edited 3 December, 2015 by lol-lol

[moley]

As to UK democracy, it is an illusion, we have a government with only 36% of the votes but over 50% of the seats, virtual control of the press.

Perhaps you don't understand the concept of a democracy, in the UK you have the freedom to vote for various parties. The first past the post is the system that the UK uses to elect a government. In the last election the Tories had 36.9% of the votes, next Labour had 30.4%, then UKIP were third with 12.6% etc, Because we vote for MPs in constituencies the percentage of votes compared to the number of seats is skewed, but this is still a democracy.  

[Llanigraham]

I, and probably millions of Labour and other UK citizens, deeply regret this flawed action that has time after time shown to be folly.

 

As to UK democracy, it is an illusion, we have a government with only 36% of the votes but over 50% of the seats, virtual control of the press.

 

Where ever we live and work, and I have lived and worked in many countries, including a many weeks in Iraq, Saudi, UAE, Canada, US, Australia and European countries, and lost a Kurdish friend in the Iraq-Iran war, forced to fight as he as also Navy.  No good will come. 

 

Except that we work a "first past the post" in a constituency system, not a total number of votes system, so we do have a democratic system.

And you are coming over more and more as a champagne socialist!!

[lol-lol]

Except that we work a "first past the post" in a constituency system, not a total number of votes system, so we do have a democratic system.

And you are coming over more and more as a champagne socialist!!

 

Do you know so little about politics with such sweeping generalisations?

 

The appalling system that we use for UK Parliament is this increasingly unfair constituency process where it 30K votes for a Con MP, 40K votes for a Labour MP and hundreds of thousands for Lib-Dem or UKIP?   The UK better proportional system and muti-vote system for other political elections such as the European elections and more local party elections and it is about time we changed in for the most important election ie the parliamentary. I would be happy to have a group of MPs for say the West Midlands, a mixture of Con, Lab, Lib and even UKIP that more representative of the peoples wishes rather than having one party that only got just over a third of the UK Votes ie 11M out of 30M and effectively have all the power?

 

Sorry I do not understand Champagne Socialist.  Wiki defines as "Champagne socialist is a political term originating in the United Kingdom.^[1][2] The phrase is used to describe self-identified socialists whose comfortable upper middle class lifestyles are perceived to be incompatible with their professed political convictions. The term is used by opposing politicians to portray and ridicule their opponents as hypocritical."^[

 

Upper Middle Class, well by income I suppose so, privately educated, private healthcare paid for by employer (like most Tory MPs), yes and yes which I more embarrassed about than proud of but ultimately I wish to not support any organisation, UK government or UK party, that pursues such a course that fails every time.   Well done for Plaid MPs and vast majority of Welsh Labour Member voting against the bombing of Syria and the SNP MPs of course.  

 

Recruiting for ISIS training has doubled in the last year apparently.  War is hell and recruits from all over the UK will be returning to the UK for revenge for the loss of life in Syria and most importantly many military planners say that bombing is like poking a hornet's nest with a stick rather than supporting a better course ie the Kurds and other moderates to establish a more moderate state or collection of states ie Kurd, Shia, Sunni.             

Edited 3 December, 2015 by lol-lol

[moley]

 Well done for Plaid MPs and vast majority of Welsh Labour Member voting against the bombing of Syria and the SNP MPs of course.  

The vote was for air strikes against IS in Syria and not 'bombing Syria'. The UK have been using air strikes against IS in Iraq for some time now. I'm still interested to know how Mr Corbyn would tackle the rise of IS.

[mellyboy]

Off topic, you can see why MOD targeted the Omar field:-

 

http://ig.ft.com/sites/2015/isis-oil/

 

Output 13,000 barrels a day @ $45 a barrel = $585,000 a day. That's about 45% of the reported IS daily income from oil.

 

But, UK is "Johnny-come-lately" to the US who are reported to have been hitting the fields since October - and that includes the use of B-1 Lancers (Wonder if they weren't precision bombing).

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/13/us/politics/us-steps-up-its-attacks-on-isis-controlled-oil-fields-in-syria.html?_r=0

 

"Every little helps" as the Saudi Oil Minster says.

 

 

Media over here has kept very quiet about that.

 

Nick

Is has been selling there plundered oil for 10  dollars a  barrel  on the black market  . Good to stop this trade  but as someone who worked in the oil industry  I wonder how many innocent technicians and general workers were killed when bombing this oil field  could have taken out the pipe lines to stop the supply .

[Clunkclick]

Do you know so little about politics with such sweeping generalisations?

 

The appalling system that we use for UK Parliament is this increasingly unfair constituency process where it 30K votes for a Con MP, 40K votes for a Labour MP and hundreds of thousands for Lib-Dem or UKIP?   The UK better proportional system and muti-vote system for other political elections such as the European elections and more local party elections and it is about time we changed in for the most important election ie the parliamentary. I would be happy to have a group of MPs for say the West Midlands, a mixture of Con, Lab, Lib and even UKIP that more representative of the peoples wishes rather than having one party that only got just over a third of the UK Votes ie 11M out of 30M and effectively have all the power?

 

Sorry I do not understand Champagne Socialist.  Wiki defines as "Champagne socialist is a political term originating in the United Kingdom.^[1][2] The phrase is used to describe self-identified socialists whose comfortable upper middle class lifestyles are perceived to be incompatible with their professed political convictions. The term is used by opposing politicians to portray and ridicule their opponents as hypocritical."^[

 

Upper Middle Class, well by income I suppose so, privately educated, private healthcare paid for by employer (like most Tory MPs), yes and yes which I more embarrassed about than proud of but ultimately I wish to not support any organisation, UK government or UK party, that pursues such a course that fails every time.   Well done for Plaid MPs and vast majority of Welsh Labour Member voting against the bombing of Syria and the SNP MPs of course.  

 

Recruiting for ISIS training has doubled in the last year apparently.  War is hell and recruits from all over the UK will be returning to the UK for revenge for the loss of life in Syria and most importantly many military planners say that bombing is like poking a hornet's nest with a stick rather than supporting a better course ie the Kurds and other moderates to establish a more moderate state or collection of states ie Kurd, Shia, Sunni.             

Dare we say it, a multi-stage proportional system might go some way to combat some of the manifest irregularities that are still being identified in our contemporary voting system - like the odd postal voting support that Labour was happy to accept as legit up in Oldham yesterday  - funny how the consciences that were out for parade earlier in the week in the Commons ducked inside to avoid a shower.

 

Nick

Edited 4 December, 2015 by Clunkclick