'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

[cheezemonkhai]

Proof, as if it was needed, that the leave campaign is full of the scum of politics

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35854735

If you believe that you'll believe anything.

He pointed out that they are:

- Not fair

- Unfairly in favour of the pensioner generation

Pensions protected and raised, working people/the young shafted

- Pointed out the chancellor was being a git

- Pointed out that a benefits cut and a rise in tax free allowance for the top earners was unfair.

Basically most people in his department think he was a decent guy.

The lady speaking out is dealing with pensions, so obviously has interests in saying he is wrong.

IMHO it's the tory party trying to tarnish IDS and make him seem bad, so they can limit the damage to themselves and George O/Dave C.

Frankly if you look around on the BBC you see plenty of articles to do with him being good to work for/with.

I'd say this has nothing to do with the EU, but the tory spin doctors want it to be, because then they can pretend it's nothing rather than addressing the very real issues he has identified.

[Evil]

There is nothing anyone can say that could make me believe for a second that IDS was anything other than a horrible example of a human being. Cut from the same cloth as other hideous examples like Osborne, Cameron, Priti Patel et al.

He may or may not have been ok to work for/with but his humanity is seriously lacking.

[cheezemonkhai]

There is nothing anyone can say that could make me believe for a second that IDS was anything other than a horrible example of a human being. Cut from the same cloth as other hideous examples like Osborne, Cameron, Priti Patel et al.

He may or may not have been ok to work for/with but his humanity is seriously lacking.

Before his work at DWP I don't see anything to say he is an evil human.

He actually founded the Centre for Social Justice, who complain about the cuts a lot.

To blow up this publicly has a lot more to do with the relationship with the treasury than about Europe.

Don't forget that when you're being told this is the money you have, then that's what you have to work with.

Frankly some of the changes are entirely required, it's just the fact that the chancellor keeps looking after the tory voters (Pensioners) and tries to win over the middle earners to vote to them.

The young and the poor will in their minds not vote tory, so they'll shaft them and keep looking after the golden generation.

It's a shame Hillary Benn isn't the leader of Labour, as Corbyn is just a bit too nuts to put in power.

[Evil]

He was filmed in an inner city housing estate doing the whole people shouldn't have to live like this thing, soon as he got his job he started penalising those very people.

All this stuff about Osborne now is too little too late. Yes, he's bang on about the budget and the tory way but where was his conscience 5 years ago?

Just the day before is resignation e was laughing and cheering about all the welfare cuts.

It's self-serving bullcrap and not about Osborne or the budget at all. They aren't in it together, they're in it for themselves.

 

I have no issue backing Corbyn.

 

Whether it's relevant or not, I come from an average middle class background, my father always voted tory and thought Thatcher was amazing. My mother bought her house under the right-to-buy scheme and done very well out of it.

Her and her partner still read the daily mail, as does my sister. Although she is slowly working out that the tories are filth and only out to make the rich richer.

[Llanigraham]

Before his work at DWP I don't see anything to say he is an evil human.

He actually founded the Centre for Social Justice, who complain about the cuts a lot.

To blow up this publicly has a lot more to do with the relationship with the treasury than about Europe.

Don't forget that when you're being told this is the money you have, then that's what you have to work with.

Frankly some of the changes are entirely required, it's just the fact that the chancellor keeps looking after the tory voters (Pensioners) and tries to win over the middle earners to vote to them.

The young and the poor will in their minds not vote tory, so they'll shaft them and keep looking after the golden generation.

It's a shame Hillary Benn isn't the leader of Labour, as Corbyn is just a bit too nuts to put in power.

 

Nearly all the pensioners I know would NEVER vote Tory!!

[moley]

Well one figure is that EU car duty is mostly set at 10% for imports to the EU where there is no FTA in place. Whilst BMW, Mercedes, PSA, Renault and VAG might want a trade deal there is no absolute need for the remaining 27 Members States of the EU have to create a Free Trade Agreement by our Brexit date of late 2018 or 2019 or whenever. The 3 EU commissioners appointed as our Brexit team could work on any FTA to be put in place. FTAs usually take 5 to 10 years to go from start to finish. There are 34 FTAs that the EU have with various trading nations and blocks.

Would we wait to Brexit until the details or finalised at least with the EU FTA? Other recent FTAs ie S.Korea, Mexico and S.Africa we would have to try and clone the EU one to get those terms?

If we remain an WTO member there are limits as to how high we can set customs duty rates, we would be able to use the Anti-Dumping and Countervailing rules available though. My job is a Customs & Compliance Analyst so if Briskoda people have the odd question or two that is bugging them let me know.

This is my point, there are no hard facts here either. You use words like mostly, might, whenever, could, usually, if, etc....

[domhnall]

This is my point, there are no hard facts here either. You use words like mostly, might, whenever, could, usually, if, etc....

That's the thing. No one can predict the future. So in 2014 referendum one of the hotly argued topics was EU membership with the snp and green party saying a yes vote would not affect our EU membership. The tory labour side said a yes vote would end our EU membership and the only way to guarantee remaining in EU was a no vote.

18 months later that certainty is now looking rather less certain. No one can tell you with certainty what the future will be.

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[gadgetman]

That's the thing. No one can predict the future. So in 2014 referendum one of the hotly argued topics was EU membership with the snp and green party saying a yes vote would not affect our EU membership. The tory labour side said a yes vote would end our EU membership and the only way to guarantee remaining in EU was a no vote.

18 months later that certainty is now looking rather less certain. No one can tell you with certainty what the future will be.

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But also as with the brexit campaign so many benefits, especially financial, were promised by the leave side.

Almost all of the financial utopia has fallen by the wayside

[domhnall]

But also as with the brexit campaign so many benefits, especially financial, were promised by the leave side.

Almost all of the financial utopia has fallen by the wayside

Indeed, the predictions from both sides in 2014 have all proved to be wrong. Like u say it's foolish to expect hard facts about the future.

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[VWD]

ALL I'm hearing from both sides sounds like the ads for products. Things like stats suggest/ this may be give you a better way of life, with the STAY campaign shoving out the heavier brand of "if we leave, we'll be worse off etc". Sounds great, but it's exactly the same sort of propaganda (from the stay lot) ,that those of us looking to sort out the bullsh1t from the truth in local residents associations saw from the Government push to get council tenants to give up hundreds of years of fought for rights for a potage of new kitchens. Brussels only respects strength, and I'd suggest a Leave vote would result in better terms to stay in, with the UK negotiators having a far stronger hand in getting better terms for all things, especially the right for the UK Parliament to stop the Euro isation and integration of the UK system into a EU SYSTEM.

[trundlenut]

ALL I'm hearing from both sides sounds like the ads for products. Things like stats suggest/ this may be give you a better way of life, with the STAY campaign shoving out the heavier brand of "if we leave, we'll be worse off etc". Sounds great, but it's exactly the same sort of propaganda (from the stay lot) ,that those of us looking to sort out the bullsh1t from the truth in local residents associations saw from the Government push to get council tenants to give up hundreds of years of fought for rights for a potage of new kitchens. Brussels only respects strength, and I'd suggest a Leave vote would result in better terms to stay in, with the UK negotiators having a far stronger hand in getting better terms for all things, especially the right for the UK Parliament to stop the Euro isation and integration of the UK system into a EU SYSTEM.

A vote to leave meaning that we stay in is just delusional.

More likely that a vote to leave means the EU will be determined to kick the crap out of us in order to show everyone else it's a bad idea.

Why would we be able to get up, walk away then return to open arms and lavish gifts.

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[Scribbler]

More likely that a vote to leave means the EU will be determined to kick the crap out of us in order to show everyone else it's a bad idea.

 

 

They have hardly been begging us to stay they already have the attitude you outline above and that's with their arrogant confidence that

we are too cowardice to actually leave. VWD is very right. No one is naive enough to believe we will actually be allowed to leave.

However it will put the decisions firmly back in our grasp and prevent this passive annexation of the UK into EU rule. Their ambitions

for us are endless and they will bleed us dry we should resist at every opportunity.

[trundlenut]

They have hardly been begging us to stay they already have the attitude you outline above and that's with their arrogant confidence that

we are too cowardice to actually leave. VWD is very right. No one is naive enough to believe we will actually be allowed to leave.

However it will put the decisions firmly back in our grasp and prevent this passive annexation of the UK into EU rule. Their ambitions

for us are endless and they will bleed us dry we should resist at every opportunity.

Then look forward to the court battles from the leave people who vote to leave because they want to leave.

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[Scribbler]

Then look forward to the court battles from the leave people who vote to leave because they want to leave.

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Were there Court Battles in Ireland?

Its a poker battle and EU hold all the Aces, but that doesn't mean we can't win, we have to be wearing our shades and have our best poker face on. After the Brexit vote and they have to start planning strategies for our exit and the gravity of the contribution we make being pulled hits home they will give us full fiscal, political and judicial autonomy just to retain us in the EU. Anyone who thinks different is a madman. Then we can go back to being friends and trading partners with a free trade agreement as it should have always been like those who voted for it 40+ years ago. I don't care about immigration we can reduce the pull factors or increase the attractiveness depending on the needs of the country once we can set our own laws

Edited 30 March, 2016 by Scribbler

[trundlenut]

Were there Court Battles in Ireland?

Its a poker battle and EU hold all the Aces, but that doesn't mean we can't win, we have to be wearing our shades and have our best poker face on. After the Brexit vote and they have to start planning strategies for our exit and the gravity of the contribution we make being pulled hits home they will give us full fiscal, political and judicial autonomy just to retain us in the EU. Anyone who thinks different is a madman. Then we can go back to being friends and trading partners with a free trade agreement as it should have always been like those who voted for it 40+ years ago. I don't care about immigration we can reduce the pull factors or increase the attractiveness depending on the needs of the country once we can set our own laws

I should think the Brexit supporters have the time, money and energy to drag it through the courts if we get a no vote and then stay in. Unless of course the Brexit lot all want to stay in Europe really.

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[domhnall]

 

I see the noble Lord Darling hasn't learned that entirely negative campaigning is a quick way to erode a strong lead in a political campaign.

 

 

[Scribbler]

I should think the Brexit supporters have the time, money and energy to drag it through the courts if we get a no vote and then stay in. Unless of course the Brexit lot all want to stay in Europe really.

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I would imagine there are many like me who are pro EU but would like to renegotiate terms so will be voting to leave. Although if they don't want a renegotiated EU then I do want to leave. Anyone who's done any negotiations will know that you need to have a big stick. You don't walk into your boss and say I want a pay rise without first having another job to go to and you must be prepared to leave if they call your bluff. The EU are currently treating us with contempt by basically saying we can't stand on our own two feet. I think the reverse is true.

[io1901]

 The EU are currently treating us with contempt by basically saying we can't stand on our own two feet. I think the reverse is true.

 

The EU is in bad way still and I don't think that the UK leaving the EU will make that any better.  One of the fears (if the UK leave)  is that sterling will take  a hit and weaken - but I think it will be mainly a transatlantic affair and  it's a possibility that the Euro will weaken l as well against the USD.  

 

I like the "idea" of the EU but hate the way it has been implemented (the Brussels/ Strasbourg gravy train, it's seemingly complicated structure, it's voting system, it's job for the boys(girls) attitude). It just seems so old fashioned and out of date. It's so 20th Century.....

Edited 30 March, 2016 by io1901

[io1901]

I'm for one minute and against the next - the campaigning hasn't helped at all as it's mostly been negative and alarmist.   So I'll probably make my mind up in the polling booth.

Edited 30 March, 2016 by io1901

[Scribbler]

 

I'm for one minute and against the next - the campaigning hasn't helped at all as it's mostly been negative and alarmist.   So I'll probably make my mind up in the polling booth.

 

 

Well my mind is made up. I would probably vote to stay if I thought they would leave the levels of integration as they are or wound back a little but A vote to stay will just be a green light to them to have carte blanche take over of our financial affairs and give us new laws, amalgamate our armed forces and generally swallow us up into a EU super state, gradually phasing out the stuff they don't like and integrate anything we do well. The HQ's will all gravitate towards the power centre (Germany) away from London. Don't get me wrong we will get phased out over a long period of time to make it more palatable but it will be an inevitable slow decline until we are a bit like Crimea a small annexed island off the coast of a large superpower. The Pro's will tell you its going to happen anyway and we should embrace it. I say give them the middle finger and lets have some ambition and drive and get this nation back on the map. Our Steel industry is a perfect example of where the EU is preventing the state helping out and also stopping us introducing tariffs on cheap steel from china so that ours is more competitive.

[trundlenut]

Well my mind is made up. I would probably vote to stay if I thought they would leave the levels of integration as they are or wound back a little but A vote to stay will just be a green light to them to have carte blanche take over of our financial affairs and give us new laws, amalgamate our armed forces and generally swallow us up into a EU super state, gradually phasing out the stuff they don't like and integrate anything we do well. The HQ's will all gravitate towards the power centre (Germany) away from London. Don't get me wrong we will get phased out over a long period of time to make it more palatable but it will be an inevitable slow decline until we are a bit like Crimea a small annexed island off the coast of a large superpower. The Pro's will tell you its going to happen anyway and we should embrace it. I say give them the middle finger and lets have some ambition and drive and get this nation back on the map. Our Steel industry is a perfect example of where the EU is preventing the state helping out and also stopping us introducing tariffs on cheap steel from china so that ours is more competitive.

Pretty much any of that would require referendums in numerous countries, so unlikely.

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[domhnall]

 

 

I like the "idea" of the EU but hate the way it has been implemented (the Brussels/ Strasbourg gravy train, it's seemingly complicated structure, it's voting system, it's job for the boys(girls) attitude). It just seems so old fashioned and out of date. It's so 20th Century.....

 

delete EU and replace with UK, replace Brussels/Strasbourg with Westminster

 

the issues you highlight will still be be there regardless of whether the UK Is a member of the EU or not - it's just they will be in London rather than Brussels

[domhnall]

Pretty much any of that would require referendums in numerous countries, so unlikely.

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It would need a referendum in every country, UK would have to approve it as would every other state, and none of them would do it for fear of the backlash from their own populations. The idea that everyone else in Europe is determined to give up their own nationality and that it is some sort of anti UK conspiracy is as ridiculous as it is widespread (thanks to the British press)

Edited 30 March, 2016 by domhnall

[Llanigraham]

They have hardly been begging us to stay they already have the attitude you outline above and that's with their arrogant confidence that

we are too cowardice to actually leave. VWD is very right. No one is naive enough to believe we will actually be allowed to leave.

However it will put the decisions firmly back in our grasp and prevent this passive annexation of the UK into EU rule. Their ambitions

for us are endless and they will bleed us dry we should resist at every opportunity.

 

What annexation?

Big word but no explanation!

[Llanigraham]

Well my mind is made up. I would probably vote to stay if I thought they would leave the levels of integration as they are or wound back a little but A vote to stay will just be a green light to them to have carte blanche take over of our financial affairs WRONG and give us new laws, WRONG amalgamate our armed forces WRONG and generally swallow us up into a EU super state, WRONG gradually phasing out the stuff they don't like and integrate anything we do well. WRONG The HQ's will all gravitate towards the power centre (Germany) away from London. WRONG Don't get me wrong we will get phased out over a long period of time to make it more palatable but it will be an inevitable slow decline until we are a bit like Crimea a small annexed island off the coast of a large superpower. The Pro's will tell you its going to happen anyway and we should embrace it. I say give them the middle finger and lets have some ambition and drive and get this nation back on the map. Our Steel industry is a perfect example of where the EU is preventing the state helping out and also stopping us introducing tariffs on cheap steel from china so that ours is more competitive.

 

Not doing very well here, are you?