'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

[gadgetman]

Several leave are putting forward Frances labour changes causing the riots as a reason to get out before it comes here due to eu meddling

But everyone ignores the fact that most of the leave lot are part of a government who wants rid of several eu laws to making firing/replacing workers much easier.

The changes in France have brought most of their employment laws more in line with ours which should tell you something about the way we are heading

[trundlenut]

Bank crash (Lehmanns) was a confidence thing which is hard to create paradigms for.

I was in the USA the day there was the 'run; on Northern Rock, which was September 2007, The US news channels said this was a local problem in the UK, but it was clear to most people in the US and in the UK that too much money was being lent out on mortgages and that a crash was inevitable.

Oil is Geo-political.

So the experts are just guess what the price will be next week /month / year

Trade deals are legal documents that take on average 4 to 9 years to put in place.

Only because they want to make it so complicated

Being a PwC alumni, judged by their salaries and salaries of people who are ex-BoE, IMF, Big 4, big banks, yep one would say they are paid as the smartest people on the planet.

They're that smart that they can predict what the UK economy will be like if we leave the EU, but they are not predicting what it will be like if we say in the EU

But all the predictions are compared to staying the EU.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

[gadgetman]

Caught briefly on the ITV news earlier the leave camp's NHS claims have been branded as "highly misleading" by a group of MP's, and the Electoral commission is taking an interest.  So expect these claims to vanish from the blunder bus soon.

 

And the remain camp don't escape either with "misleading" claims on the effects on each household of £4300 and another claim I didn't catch as the kids hit the remote & changed channel

 

EDIT- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36397732

[lol-lol]

Whenever I see burning barricades and riot police on the streets I always think it's a storm in a teacup.

French unemployment 10.5% UK 5.4% Germany 4.8%.

The only good thing to come out of France is the ferry to Dover

 

Renault F1 engines?  (12 of last 25 F1 titles, well done today Red Bull and Ricardo too).

Airbus?

Half of Concord?

Veyron?

Most successful country with nuclear power that helps keeps the lights on in Britain and electricity cheaper.

Cuisine.

Michelin tyres fitted to Audi WEC/Le Mans cars.

 

Could go on but there are none so blind that will not see.

Edited 28 May, 2016 by lol-lol

[Ootohere]

Maybe Michelin will keep manufacturing tyres in Dundee and selling them in the UK.

Maybe other companies will continue manufacturing in the UK and supply in the UK or export from the UK around the world.

 

Who knows, the UK has been very good for many Companies & Manufacturers that are owned in full EU Countries but 

get an advantage by having a presence in the British Isles that is EU-Light.

 

China has been sure to invest the billions in the UK in Oil, Gas and Energy production and are going to continue spending big 

even if the UK leaves the EU.

[Clunkclick]

In or out, I for one, haven't got much confidence that any of the important issues impacting on the UK will be addressed after 23rd June by whichever thought  regime wins the day.

 

The current situation has got all the hallmarks of a slow-build economic and social pimple waiting to burst:-

 

Net migration up to 2024 of 4 million !

 

Gross discrimination in jobs and housing, as regards the native population, under the oversight of the institution (EU) that is supposed to eschew all of this !

 

Exploited revolving door workers, here for six months, resulting in 600,000 N.I. numbers being issued per year.

 

Non-existent "Trickle down" of wealth and income, as was promised in the early days of Thatcher, leaving many un or improperly housed and reliant on food-banks.

 

A wild-west housing sector, with government and estate agent sponsored economic and ethnic cleansing fully operative

 

Collapse of house building whilst developers sit on huge land banks.

 

Over consumption of poor quality imported  "Fripperies" fuelled by improperly priced money

 

Under investment in infrastructure and productivity, giving the UK the worst productivity in Western Europe - just look at road,rail and telecoms for starters.

 

£8 billion a month balance of payments deficit - @ 7% of GDP , the largest percentage since 1948 - again, mainly caused by excess consumption.

 

1.6 million (Official) unemployed (So, real figure is double or treble that) - presume that the majority are patrial natives.

 

The prospect of reduced incomes, especially the lower waged, as the  economic focus of Europe moving to the centre/east and robotisation takes effect (They are already cacking themselves in the U.S. about the latter).

 

 

 

Surely a massive adjustment is  imminent ?

 

Does the EU referendum have any relevance in these issues ?

 

Possibly, yes, as a side line, as "In" or "Out" will affect the way in which the adjustment is made.

 

IMHO, the EU is not best suited to make such an adjustment as it  relies on increasingly more centralised, restrictive, inappropriate (Sometimes), delayed and ineffective rule issuing which so far seems to have had the effect, historically,of diminishing economic growth (Particularly in the South of Europe) and prolonging the pain.

 

There is the possibility that a market driven adjustment, and that doesn't just mean a change in the financial markets as shown in the City of London, would be equally, if not more painful, but over a shorter time scale

 

Trouble is the HMG policy apparatus and current City Of London modus operandi, in a substantial portion, is  set-up (And has been for the last 30 years) for financing a "Home" economic model based on "Managed decline", low productive investment with consequent low productivity relieved only by "Phoney" economic growth" coming from on a  systematic exploitative over-revving of the consumption side of the  economy, supported in the last 15 years, by the  substitution of a  revolving-door imported workforce  for natives and, more recently the intellectually bankrupt policy of  turning a blind 'un to loan-sharking, money laundering and corporate fraud up to international level. 

 

At this stage, any "Economic growth" we get under this system is not "Real" or sustainable from an economic or political perspective and seems to be mainly focused on channelling any remaining funds in the economy up towards those who already have so much they don't know what to do with it. And, it is likely to go into reverse in slower time as the EU wields it centralising and regional refocusing cudgel to the disadvantage of the island off the North-West coast of North-West Europe - that's us - the current BOP deficit is a mere shadow of what could happen.

 

In policy output terms the EU and the City have no incentive to jeopardise the status quo as they are all doing very nicely out of it.  

 

 Brexit might provide the stimulus to break this stultifying downward cycle or, at least, change its nature and impact.

 

 

Nick

Edited 28 May, 2016 by Clunkclick

[@Lee]

In or out, I for one, haven't got much confidence that any of the important issues impacting on the UK will be addressed after 23rd June by whichever thought  regime wins the day.

 

The current situation has got all the hallmarks of a slow-build economic and social pimple waiting to burst:-

 

Net migration up to 2024 of 4 million !

Based on current trends? Who can forsee 2024?

Gross discrimination in jobs and housing, as regards the native population, under the oversight of the institution (EU) that is supposed to eschew all of this !

Based on what evidence?

Exploited revolving door workers, here for six months, resulting in 600,000 N.I. numbers being issued per year.

Here for six months? So they go back then?

Non-existent "Trickle down" of wealth and income, as was promised in the early days of Thatcher, leaving many un or improperly housed and reliant on food-banks.

You're referring to a PM who was voted in in 1979 and left office in 1990 lol

A wild-west housing sector, with government and estate agent sponsored economic and ethnic cleansing fully operative

Please provide reputable citations

Collapse of house building whilst developers sit on huge land banks.

I can think of at least twenty new developments of over 100 homes within 30 miles of Southampton off the top of my head

http://www.andoveradvertiser.co.uk/news/11618400.Fury_at_plans_for_512_new_homes/

http://www.barratthomes.co.uk/new-homes/?qloc=Southampton&gclid=CJ_J3dCe_cwCFYEy0wodnOkHVg&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CP-p-dCe_cwCFcI72wodU3YAqw

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/feb/25/uk-housebuilding-new-homes-construction-high-2008

 

Over consumption of poor quality imported  "Fripperies" fuelled by improperly priced money

People want cheap goods, supply and demand. Not everone wants to keep a thirty odd year old oven going

Under investment in infrastructure and productivity, giving the UK the worst productivity in Western Europe - just look at road,rail and telecoms for starters.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bt-group-results-idUKKCN0XW0DH

 

£8 billion a month balance of payments deficit - @ 7% of GDP , the largest percentage since 1948.

 

1.6 million (Official) unemployed (So, real figure is double or treble that) - presume that the majority are patrial natives.

 

The prospect of reduced incomes, especially the lower waged, as the  economic focus of Europe moving to the centre/east and robotisation takes effect (They are already cacking themselves in the U.S. about the latter).

Glad my job has a low probability of being automated then

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34066941

 

 

 

 

 

Nick

Not been through it all but those two popped into my mind

 

Edited at 18:00

[moley]

Renault F1 engines?  (12 of last 25 F1 titles, well done today Red Bull and Ricardo too).

11 in the last 25. Lucky they're not using French fuel as 6 of the 8 refineries are still closed or on reduced capacity. I think the Milton Keynes car might have more to do with Ricciardo's pole position at  Monaco today than the engine 

Airbus?

If it ain't a Boeing I ain't going.

Half of Concord?

Concorde?

Veyron?

German car bolted together in France

Most successful country with nuclear power that helps keeps the lights on in Britain and electricity cheaper.

Is this why the French unions are opposed to building Hinkley Point?

Cuisine.

Italian any day for me

Michelin tyres fitted to Audi WEC/Le Mans cars.

Michelin tyres! the ones on my MK3 went out of shape after 30k, so they went in the bin. F1 tyres at Indianapolis were a real winner in 2005

 

Could go on but there are none so blind that will not see.

Could be those rose tinted specs that's causing the problem

 

Then there was De Gaulle. We put him and his French free boys in Ribbesford house near Bewdley for the duration in WW2 and in the 1960's he twice vetoed the UK from joining the Common Market.

[gadgetman]

In or out, I for one, haven't got much confidence that any of the important issues impacting on the UK will be addressed after 23rd June by whichever thought regime wins the day.

The current situation has got all the hallmarks of a slow-build economic and social pimple waiting to burst:-

Net migration up to 2024 of 4 million !

Gross discrimination in jobs and housing, as regards the native population, under the oversight of the institution (EU) that is supposed to eschew all of this !

Exploited revolving door workers, here for six months, resulting in 600,000 N.I. numbers being issued per year.

Non-existent "Trickle down" of wealth and income, as was promised in the early days of Thatcher, leaving many un or improperly housed and reliant on food-banks.

A wild-west housing sector, with government and estate agent sponsored economic and ethnic cleansing fully operative

Collapse of house building whilst developers sit on huge land banks.

Over consumption of poor quality imported "Fripperies" fuelled by improperly priced money

Under investment in infrastructure and productivity, giving the UK the worst productivity in Western Europe - just look at road,rail and telecoms for starters.

£8 billion a month balance of payments deficit - @ 7% of GDP , the largest percentage since 1948 - again, mainly caused by excess consumption.

1.6 million (Official) unemployed (So, real figure is double or treble that) - presume that the majority are patrial natives.

The prospect of reduced incomes, especially the lower waged, as the economic focus of Europe moving to the centre/east and robotisation takes effect (They are already cacking themselves in the U.S. about the latter).

Surely a massive adjustment is imminent ?

Does the EU referendum have any relevance in these issues ?

Possibly, yes, as a side line, as "In" or "Out" will affect the way in which the adjustment is made.

IMHO, the EU is not best suited to make such an adjustment as it relies on increasingly more centralised, restrictive, inappropriate (Sometimes), delayed and ineffective rule issuing which so far seems to have had the effect, historically,of diminishing economic growth (Particularly in the South of Europe) and prolonging the pain.

There is the possibility that a market driven adjustment, and that doesn't just mean a change in the financial markets as shown in the City of London, would be equally, if not more painful, but over a shorter time scale

Trouble is the HMG policy apparatus and current City Of London modus operandi, in a substantial portion, is set-up (And has been for the last 30 years) for financing a "Home" economic model based on "Managed decline", low productive investment with consequent low productivity relieved only by "Phoney" economic growth" coming from on a systematic exploitative over-revving of the consumption side of the economy, supported in the last 15 years, by the substitution of a revolving-door imported workforce for natives and, more recently the intellectually bankrupt policy of turning a blind 'un to loan-sharking, money laundering and corporate fraud up to international level.

At this stage, any "Economic growth" we get under this system is not "Real" or sustainable from an economic or political perspective and seems to be mainly focused on channelling any remaining funds in the economy up towards those who already have so much they don't know what to do with it. And, it is likely to go into reverse in slower time as the EU wields it centralising and regional refocusing cudgel to the disadvantage of the island off the North-West coast of North-West Europe - that's us - the current BOP deficit is a mere shadow of what could happen.

In policy output terms the EU and the City have no incentive to jeopardise the status quo as they are all doing very nicely out of it.

Brexit might provide the stimulus to break this stultifying downward cycle or, at least, change its nature and impact.

Nick

The majority of all of this is down to the UK government, not the EU.

Most of the "revolving door workers" are pickers of the fruit & veg we all eat because almost no one in the UK wants to stand in a field in all weathers for minimum wage.

Yet because they have NI numbers they've helped contribute to our services which they probably got little or no use from.

As much as UKIP & the leave campaign want to ignore it, eu migrants contribute more per head than they cost us. The last figure I saw was a contribution in taxation of £120/eu migrant to our services above a UK worker.

Something like a 5th of the NHS funding comes from migrants (not sure the breakdown of that from eu/non eu migrants).

So the pulling up the drawbridge argument isn't as black and white as leave are selling voters.

It's also interesting besides the majority of leave support from the over 50 group (pretty expected), support is also strong to leave in ex pats currently living abroad.

[Ootohere]

As far as 'Trickle down',   Maybe go to where the people come to work at the Soft Fruit farms and other growers establishments.

 

Then you see the workers hitching, walking or getting taken by mini-bus to the local shops and supermarkets spending their not very high wages.

That is Trickle down.  The UK Growers getting their products picked and packaged and making a living and paying taxes 

and the workers spending money on buying food and not putting much demand on the Education or Health Services.

 

HMRC so the UK Government know exactly how much migrant workers put into the economy while taking virtually nothing from 

it unlike the work shy British Citizens.

[lol-lol]

 

Renault F1 engines?  (12 of last 25 F1 titles, well done today Red Bull and Ricardo too).  11 in the last 25. Lucky they're not using French fuel as 6 of the 8 refineries are still closed or on reduced capacity. I think the Milton Keynes car might have more to do with Ricciardo's pole position at  Monaco today than the engine 

Airbus?  If it ain't a Boeing I ain't going.

Half of Concord?  Concorde?

Veyron?  German car bolted together in France

Most successful country with nuclear power that helps keeps the lights on in Britain and electricity cheaper.  Is this why the French unions are opposed to building Hinkley Point?

Cuisine.  Italian any day for me

Michelin tyres fitted to Audi WEC/Le Mans cars.   Michelin tyres! the ones on my MK3 went out of shape after 30k, so they went in the bin. F1 tyres at Indianapolis were a real winner in 2005

Could go on but there are none so blind that will not see.  Could be those rose tinted specs that's causing the problem

Then there was De Gaulle. We put him and his French free boys in Ribbesford house near Bewdley for the duration in WW2 and in the 1960's he twice vetoed the UK from joining the Common Market.

 

It was the last sector up the hill that the Red Bull-Renault really made the difference to the Mercedes so indications are that the new engine is making a difference though Magnesson was not able to exploit it seems.

 

Airbus have a similar safety record to Boeing, I prefer to look at the individual model.  At least Airbus employees thousands of British workers currently, would change if UK leaves EU and regimes such as Inward Processing Relief could not be use.

 

Logical that French Unions, and French government, and probably the Chinese too, would want to invest in UK if it leaves the UK, as with much of any foreign investment, when the UK's GDP and currency is in such doubt by the experts ie IMF, PwC etc if it leaves the EU.

 

Fiasco of the F1 at Indianapolis was due to the whole car not being set up to running on the banked tracks, 6 cars went round, got points. Indy Cars are capable of running the much higher centrifugal forces and speeds on their tracks. 100th Indy 500 today. 350,000 people will be there.  Coverage on BTSports 1 this afternoon/evening.  Juan Pablo Montoya, highest speed in a race in an F1 car ever, on 6th row today.

 

I also found Michelin PS3 best on the petrol VRSs, Contis more suited to  on the cooking diesel versions.

 

Italian food, despite doing Florence, Milano, Pizza, Rome last year, find it a bit fatty, nice ice cream though, cuisine in Marseillaise, Corsica better, each to their own.   

Edited 29 May, 2016 by lol-lol

[moley]

Fiasco of the F1 at Indianapolis was due to the whole car not being set up to running on the banked tracks, 6 cars went round, got points. 

The six cars were running Bridgestones. 

[lol-lol]

The six cars were running Bridgestones. 

 

Which if course would know lots about the requirements of Indy car type banked tracks as Indy cars run Firestones which is a subsidiary of Bridgestone tires, not everyone realizes that, so they certainly would have had a lot of data of requirements of running with the centrifugal/centripetal forces on banked sections which was the issue as I recall. 

[lol-lol]

Odds shifting by about 0.2% per day, up for Remain, down for Leave.  Get your money down if the pollsters have got it wrong you think!

 

29th of May - 19% Leave - 81% Remain

 

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/brexit-odds-live-updates-on-percentage-chance-of-uk-leaving-the-eu/

Edited 31 May, 2016 by lol-lol

[james0james]

 

 

Happy to stay in the Euro union as it is now.

Not happy at what the Euro union will be like in 10 years.

Edited 30 May, 2016 by james0james

[@Lee]

20160528_103125.jpg

 

 

Happy to stay in the Euro union as it is now.

Not happy at what the Euro union will be like in 10 years.

where are you?

[gadgetman]

20160528_103125.jpg

Happy to stay in the Euro union as it is now.

Not happy at what the Euro union will be like in 10 years.

Pretty sure sharing a picture of your completed poll/voting card is a criminal offence.

[@Lee]

Pretty sure sharing a picture of your completed poll/voting card is a criminal offence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32451429

 

If he's happy to stay in 'as it is now', why vote out?

 

 

Can I take a picture in the polling booth?

Definitely not. While there is no law explicitly banning photography in polling stations, the Electoral Commission has advised polling station and staff to ban voters from taking selfies or using cameras or smartphones in polling stations.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/06/how-do-i-vote-general-election-polling-what-need-to-know

[Scribbler]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32451429

 

If he's happy to stay in 'as it is now', why vote out?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/06/how-do-i-vote-general-election-polling-what-need-to-know

 

To be honest thats pretty much my position. If the EU had have agreed on no closer union (not just the wording) and no further entries into the Club then my vote might have been different. We have fought the EU's expansion program every step of the way. However we get another Corbyn type leader actually elected prime minister and i don't think they would use their Veto powers at all, infact i think they would be the ones pushing for the Ukraine and Turkey to jump on the band wagon. The EU and Liberal Left of center Parties aims are very similar and that is that everyone should have a similar standard of living regardless of their contribution. Now this may seem a legitimate aim for this Utopia called the EU But far from raising other countries upto our level it will have the opposite effect in bringing our country down to their level. Making a few at the top richer and the gap to the poorest even larger. The way to improve the countries with financial problems in the Eu is not to have them hemorrhage all their skilled and able workers to countries such as Germany and the UK only to then give handouts to those countries. Free uncontrolled movement will lead to more draconian border controls than what we had prior to the EU. Poking the big Russian Bear by encouraging the Ukraine to move closer to EU membership and Nato is the main threat. Be careful what you wish for guys the most altruistic of reasons for remaining may ultimately prove to be the greatest error we ever make. I wont get another vote in my life time, i trust our people to make the right decisions unfortunately i don't trust our European partners and we will be handing them the power if we remain.  

[gadgetman]

An interesting comment on the news tonight after today's sales pitch for leaving on what will happen with our immigration policy.

They liken the leave campaign to an election manifesto - but none of it is on the cards with any party or the government.

Dropping Vat on gas & electricity that was brought in by the tories and brings in a tidy penny for the treasury which would need to be replaced elsewhere.

Spending the EU money solely on the NHS. A vote winner with many especially the elderly, but again no guarantee this would happen as the money is also promised to still protect farmers, fishermen and all the other parties who currently get eu money.

Some of the leave arguments/promises could be decided by a government, but the majority requires legislation changes which requires MPs & Lords to pass. Last I saw there are more siding with remain than leave so there's a hurdle.

Loving the sly grins and sucking up to Boris by Priti Pritel. Clearly promised a nice cabinet position by Boris!

[Scribbler]

An interesting comment on the news tonight after today's sales pitch for leaving on what will happen with our immigration policy.

They liken the leave campaign to an election manifesto - but none of it is on the cards with any party or the government.

Dropping Vat on gas & electricity that was brought in by the tories and brings in a tidy penny for the treasury which would need to be replaced elsewhere.

Spending the EU money solely on the NHS. A vote winner with many especially the elderly, but again no guarantee this would happen as the money is also promised to still protect farmers, fishermen and all the other parties who currently get eu money.

Some of the leave arguments/promises could be decided by a government, but the majority requires legislation changes which requires MPs & Lords to pass. Last I saw there are more siding with remain than leave so there's a hurdle.

Loving the sly grins and sucking up to Boris by Priti Pritel. Clearly promised a nice cabinet position by Boris!

 

I have to agree that this is my biggest gripe with the Leave campaign that they are making promises that they can't keep because as you say its a collection of cross party mp's and its not an election so there is no need for the manifesto pledges. The Remain campaign are just as guilty of promises that they can't possibly keep but it appears more credible because the head of  the campaign is the Prime Minister. I think what the Leave campaign are trying to get across (and falling short) is that we will have 'the ability' to control our own legislation and fiscal policy free from interference, whist also suggesting that in the future this will fall further under the umbrella or scope of EU remit as they mesh everyone's economies together to smooth out the peeks and troughs and bring everybody inline with the Utopian Design.

As Long as the remain campaign are filling the headlines with these crazy doom and gloom stories that the four horseman of the apocalypse will rise and cast the UK into Dante's Inferno should we dare to stand on our own two feet, you will get these ludicrous counter claims from the Eccentric members of the Leave side. The underlying fact still remains that if you want a say in the countries future or you want your kids to be able to elect representatives that reflect their views and be held to account in the future, then it has to be a vote to leave we wont get another opportunity. The EU is destined to fail but until it does it will consume all. Just like an American intervention in the middle east its destined for 'Mission Creep' so whats starts off as a well meaning collaboration with lets call it the neighbor quickly spirals until its an occupation. I know many will think that analogy is extreme but i wonder if you would still think this in another 40 years when Brussels decides everything and our own parliament is just a ceremonial role with no real power, similar to how our Monarchy is now!

[gadgetman]

If you really don't want that, then UKIP need to be kicked out of the EU parliament during the next eu elections.

They fail to vote on so much which directly affects us - helping it get passed. They then show up on TV complaining about it.

The immigration controls proposal from vote leave is unravelling. No border control with Ireland so that'll be the new method of entry to the UK. Points system based on Australia who want to boost population, and eu leaders lining up to say that if we stop their citizens settling and travelling unrestricted, they will reciprocate.

[Scribbler]

If you really don't want that, then UKIP need to be kicked out of the EU parliament during the next eu elections.

They fail to vote on so much which directly affects us - helping it get passed. They then show up on TV complaining about it.

The immigration controls proposal from vote leave is unravelling. No border control with Ireland so that'll be the new method of entry to the UK. Points system based on Australia who want to boost population, and eu leaders lining up to say that if we stop their citizens settling and travelling unrestricted, they will reciprocate.

 

Its a bit like having pilots in a drone, If the drone is operated remotely from a control centre then it doesn't really matter if the pilots are asleep drunk or don't turn up. Hiring better pilots isn't the solution.

 

It wouldn't matter if all 73 of our MEP's were favourable and worked in our best interests because its very naive to think that the other 678 foreign MEP's will. So effectively our representation in the EU as a percentage is less than the Liberal Democrats in Westminster. Do the Lib Dems have any say in our domestic affairs ? Are they likely to have ? Similar prospects for our MEP's therefor the UKIP MEP's do a fantastic job of bringing this farse to an abrupt conclusion and hopefully we are the first of many to exit.

Edited 2 June, 2016 by Scribbler

[gadgetman]

Its a bit like having pilots in a drone, If the drone is operated remotely from a control centre then it doesn't really matter if the pilots are asleep drunk or don't turn up. Hiring better pilots isn't the solution.

It wouldn't matter if all 73 of our MEP's were favourable and worked in our best interests because its very naive to think that the other 678 foreign MEP's will. So effectively our representation in the EU as a percentage is less than the Liberal Democrats in Westminster. Do the Lib Dems have any say in our domestic affairs ? Are they likely to have ? Similar prospects for our MEP's therefor the UKIP MEP's do a fantastic job of bringing this farse to an abrupt conclusion and hopefully we are the first of many to exit.

The EU commissions are elected by national governments and the EU parliament so the notion/myth they are unelected is nonsense. Same as most groups in the UK at local council/government level. Over 2/3 of our own self governance is by people who aren't elected by voters either.

As for nations siding against us, name some examples. What was the votes against and would UKIP voting have made a difference?

Or is this another it could happen? You COULD get run over by the 57 bus tomorrow, you might not.

Most decisions at eu commission level have been voted on by governments. It is then ratified into a regulation or directive by the Parliament (MEPs). It is then our government who integrates into our laws or vetoes it (which we do quite often).

It's been fact checked by pretty much every UK news organisation as misleading that the EU isn't accountable, run by unelected people and laws are forced upon us. It's factually untrue.

[lol-lol]

You can now get 5/2 on BREXIT.

 

Or

 

1/3 or REMAIN

 

 

if you fancy a flutter....