EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 1

[mender]

Quote "At the end of the day, we've robbed the youngsters of their freedom to work and live in the EU "

 

Bleating teenagers who think they know everything have been a constant since the time of Aristotle.

 

He wrote disparagingly about the "Youth of Today"  then and they still have a reactionary outlook 5000 years later.

 

It doesn't matter what the older Generations do, the Young will diametrically oppose it.

 

Young activists would probably have bitched about a Remain vote too.

 

I personally am content that my kids have both gone out into the world and got jobs rather than sitting on their butts waiting for the older generation to give them everything.

I'd disagree, as it must be infuriating to have the rights you expect being brought up as British in Europe removed without any say.

 

To see older brothers and sisters do things you are now denied.

 

The older generation has screwed the younger generation with huge national debt, ridiculous house prices, diminishing pensions, a higher and higher retirement age etc, now this.

 

I'm established and doing ok, I can't imagine leaving school now and trying to get a mortgage or having the stability (eg own house and stable well paid job) to have kids (without burdening the state, that is) or get married, what hope have they got?

 

There will always be differences between young and old re attitude, morals, discipline, fashion, music etc as ever was-but the young are right to feel f**ked over by the older generation, who then to add insult to injury tell them how easy their life is compared to when they were young.

[camelspyyder]

If a General Election is to be called that might just be the end of the likes of Boris, Michael Gove, IDS and plenty of others as MP's.

 

All the planning and scheming counts for nowt if they are punted.

 

It could certainly happen.

 

Even though its not due till 2020 a majority of 16 is not any sort of safety net.

[camelspyyder]

 

The older generation has screwed the younger generation with huge national debt, ridiculous house prices, diminishing pensions, a higher and higher retirement age etc, now this.

 

 

Sweeping generalisation there, no?

 

I'm part of that OG, but none of those things were done by the (older) man or woman in the street but by the ruling elite (of whatever political colour).

 

It's simply not true that "old people " are responsible for all that.

 

Young people with a work ethic are going to get on fine, and they will pass their values on to their own kids too.

[Mikek3111]

Another way to look at this is that we have swapped resentment from 51.9 % of the people feeling their country does not represent them over immigration, NHS, ruling bodies and EU quotas/rules, to....

.....resentment from other 48.1% of the people feeling their country does not represent them in any way whatsoever

I would imagine that an "if we knew then what we know now 2nd vote" was carried out, it would be different, but I can only speculate after hearing of the annoyance from Leave voters re NHS/Farage and other matters and the common "we voted to support the need for change, but never imagined we'd leave, wow!" lot.

At the end of the day, we've robbed the youngsters of their freedom to work and live in the EU and huge divisions have been created causing friction between regions, ages and social classes.

One set of elite will lose out, another will make millions-the working class will lose out for a while in the meantime.

The new way of ruling will be corrupt and criticised, as the EU was, nothing will really change for the better.

In the meantime, we've given away a lot of great things and created disharmony, let's not forget the MONUMENTAL cost of re-branding everything in every government department and creating a financial mess and possibly a recession.

So we can flag wave a proud independent nation of England and Wales?

The very same people who were "sick of experts" are those people who don't listen to anyone with a superior knowledge or education than theirs-they are in low paid jobs for a reason-and hate the immigrants who have a far better education than them on the whole, don't feel "above" menial jobs to make a living and work hard to get ahead.

Maybe when things get worse instead of better, they will start to listen and stop blaming others for their own shortcomings.

Here you go again. So people are dumb because they voted leave?

Remains have a higher intellect?

Everyone that voted leave refuse to work hard?

Why don't you climb off your god damn high horse and stick your nose out into the real world. Your constant postings about leave voters all being stupid or uneducated show you to be a bit of a pompous *****.

All you are doing is showing the discrimation to others that certain UKIP members have shown to EU migrants which then makes you no better than the very people you are chastising.

Grow up

End of the day my vote is exactly that. MY VOTE!!! I did what I FELT WAS RIGHT, not what someone else wanted me to do or what I thought some random Boy/girl in a UNiversity 100 miles away thinks I should do. Just because that doesn't reflect the result you wanted doesn't give you the right to start slandering those who chose a different view

Edited 27 June, 2016 by Mikek3111

[camelspyyder]

Quote"it must be infuriating to have the rights you expect being brought up as British in Europe removed without any say"

 

Who's been brought up as "British in Europe" then.

 

I've never considered myself European in 53 years and I've never once heard my kids or anyone from their generation describe themselves as European.

Edited 27 June, 2016 by camelspyyder

[moley]

The older generation has screwed the younger generation with huge national debt, ridiculous house prices, diminishing pensions, a higher and higher retirement age etc, now this.

Every generation blames the one before.

[gadgetman]

Remember it's just project fear

Institute of Directors who supported leave say many will freeze employment, 2/3 say brexit is bad for their businesses:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36636574

Pound plunges further, markets expected to follow

http://news.sky.com/story/1717973/pound-suffers-fresh-losses-over-brexit-fears

Just scaremongering remember

[lol-lol]

Gideon Osborne now speaking, point of interest:-

 

1. Bank of England bought an extra quarter of a trillion foreign currency before BREXIT vote to have foreign currency so not only had hedged for liquidity but has made a bit of a killing, (as I did with my pension formatting) as the value of the money has increased by 10% or so over weekend visa vie Euro/Dollar.
2. View is to not invoke Article 50 of Lisbon Treaty until EU FTA in place is many month at least (FTAs usually take 2 to 9 years to negotiate from my experience working with UK gov dept BIS from a customs angle)      

 

Not such as bad summary from gormless George, looked like he was on Beta blockers or is that dead man walking.

 

UK Pound fallen to 1.34 as we have not found the bottom yet and we will see how much the dead cat bounce is and where the new moving averages are for the USD (85% of trade in this currency-was nearly 1.5 last week)  and the Euro at 1.21.(was 1.3 last week). 

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/GBPUSD:CUR

   

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/GBPEUR:CUR

Edited 27 June, 2016 by lol-lol

[mender]

Here you go again. So people are dumb because they voted leave?

All you are doing is showing the discrimation to others that certain UKIP members have shown to EU migrants which then makes you no better than the very people you are chastising.

 

A fair point, but so many leave voters I have spoken to (and you might guess I have done this a lot!!) about this were simply clueless about the effect of their vote and what would happen next, which removes all respect for them

 

At least we still have free speech....!

 

The reason I post is to understand what people are doing by their reaction and arguments; in some areas the posts have appeased worries, in some cases they have infuriated me.

I guess the same would have happened in a remain vote.

 

It is unusual for me to be controversial or to generalise and to stick my neck out, but I genuinely believe that the vote was won on ignorance by at least the small majority and the indignance comes from what I see around me, when people cannot argue the case and are apologetic for their vote; several have said they weren't sure on voting day and would change their vote now.  This is infuriating as hundreds of millions of people across Europe are affected by this small majority and see huge effects from this.

 

It is a passionate argument and I do not wish to offend, but I am FURIOUS....

[lol-lol]

A fair point, but so many leave voters I have spoken to (and you might guess I have done this a lot!!) about this were simply clueless about the effect of their vote and what would happen next, which removes all respect for them

At least we still have free speech....!

The reason I post is to understand what people are doing by their reaction and arguments; in some areas the posts have appeased worries, in some cases they have infuriated me.

I guess the same would have happened in a remain vote.

It is unusual for me to be controversial or to generalise and to stick my neck out, but I genuinely believe that the vote was won on ignorance by at least the small majority and the indignance comes from what I see around me, when people cannot argue the case and are apologetic for their vote; several have said they weren't sure on voting day and would change their vote now.  This is infuriating as hundreds of millions of people across Europe are affected by this small majority and see huge effects from this.

It is a passionate argument and I do not wish to offend, but I am FURIOUS....

 

We should only be half as worried as we were on Friday as clearly as there will be lots of uncertainly and that is quite bad but it looks like Article 50 will not be invoked at least until next year and therefore actual EU leave is at least 3 years away giving us time to move ourselves and our UK money abroad at the peaks of the dead cat bounce and those moments where other shocks give us moments to convert to Euros and Dollars and sell property at a good profit from the rises between 1997 and 2007.  Not all bad just a shame.  

[gadgetman]

FTA in place?

He's been on a weekender in Amsterdam hasn't he

[gadgetman]

We should only be half as worried as we were on Friday as clearly as there will be lots of uncertainly and that is quite bad but it looks like Article 50 will not be invoked at least until next year and therefore actual EU leave is at least 3 years away giving us time to move ourselves and our UK money abroad at the peaks of the dead cat bounce and those moments where other shocks give us moments to convert to Euros and Dollars and sell property at a good profit from the rises between 1997 and 2007. Not all bad just a shame.

Business won't wear that uncertainty. You'll just force them to make a decision on what they're doing long term.

But business doesn't wait around

[lol-lol]

Business won't wear that uncertainty. You'll just force them to make a decision on what they're doing long term.

But business doesn't wait around

But it is what is the worst scenario. No deal on EU trade for the UK and it default to the World Trade Organisation's Most Favored Nation rates ie 10% for cars, engines over 1 litre 4.2% duty etc.

Perhaps better to have uncertainty rather than certain on trade barriers in 730 days time.

Edited 27 June, 2016 by lol-lol

[Paul007]

Sounded to me like George has plans to be in no 10 sooner rather than later after hearing him this morning going on about how much better the economy is and what a great job he's done. I'd disagree as our economy in the real world is completely knackered. Shops closing weekly, firms going under, austerity closing libraries.....

[@Lee]

tolerant lot these people are

 

https://www.facebook.com/lukeslewis/posts/10154881715172004?pnref=story

[@Lee]

Question time last night; one of the Leave campaigners said 'we'll negotiate the best deal for Britain'.

Did he forget there's 27 other countries to negotiate with and they will all want the best deal for themselves/ the EU.

[mender]

We should only be half as worried as we were on Friday as clearly as there will be lots of uncertainly and that is quite bad but it looks like Article 50 will not be invoked at least until next year and therefore actual EU leave is at least 3 years away giving us time to move ourselves and our UK money abroad at the peaks of the dead cat bounce and those moments where other shocks give us moments to convert to Euros and Dollars and sell property at a good profit from the rises between 1997 and 2007.  Not all bad just a shame.  

I'm not so bothered about the money, what irks me is the all the division and attrition that has been caused, the loss of unity and access for the kids, the possible break-up of the UK, plus the licence for many to now be openly racist.

 

What started as a way to calm the far right has turned into the opposite-and we are setting the example for the rest of Europe.

 

To me the result has caused many many more problems than it could ever possibly solve!

[@Lee]

I'm not so bothered about the money, what irks me is the all the division and attrition that has been caused, the loss of unity and access for the kids, the possible break-up of the UK, plus the licence for many to now be openly racist.

 

What started as a way to calm the far right has turned into the opposite-and we are setting the example for the rest of Europe.

 

To me the result has caused many many more problems than it could ever possibly solve!

That's what really worries me above all else. There's people posting things I would never have imagined they'd say before the election, things that are truly abhorrent.

I went to sleep last night wondering how long will it be before Polish shops start getting targetted, how long before Mosques have their windows smashed.

A British Kristallnacht. The very thing that people from Britain opposed.

You may call me a fool for thinking that and that's your right but do not be so sure it couldn't happen here.

A small wave in the ocean can become a Tsunami.

[mender]

That's what really worries me above all else. There's people posting things I would never have imagined they'd say before the election, things that are truly abhorrent.

I went to sleep last night wondering how long will it be before Polish shops start getting targetted, how long before Mosques have their windows smashed.

A British Kristallnacht. The very thing that people from Britain opposed.

You may call me a fool for thinking that and that's your right but do not be so sure it couldn't happen here.

A small wave in the ocean can become a Tsunami.

How strange, I said to my wife last night more or less exactly the same phrase...the result was the earthquake, the tsunami will hit soon.

 

I agree, I've already seen and heard things that take the country back 50 years and away from what a modern Britain in a modern world should be about.

[Aspman]

I'm still waiting on someone to say how we turn this to our advantage.

This was supposed to be the land of milk and honey, tell me how we get there.

 

We're going to get back some controls over some things (much less than was implied) so what will be done with those powers to encourage investment and development in the UK outside of the EU?

 

We were going to get back immigration controls, yet now we're told free movement with the EU will be maintained, non-EU immigration was unaffected anyway. Maybe deportation will be easier if we withdraw from the ECHR but have you really thought about how it will affect your human rights as well?

 

We were going to get £350M a week back, but apparently maybe not. So where is this extra money and what will you do with whatever we do keep?

 

Apart from fishing rights WTF are we going to do with a dead man walking as PM and a dead man walking as the opposition?

 

I'm no great lover of the SNP but at least Wee Nic has grabbed the ball and started running.

[trundlenut]

Agreed we are in uncharted waters, but so was Edmund Hillary when he climbed Mount Everest, Neil Armstrong when he stepped on the moon. Someone, somewhere has to make that first step. The British public (with the exception of Scotland, N Ireland & Greater London) has chosen to make that first step. Who are we to deny it? Right or wrong only history will describe.

The doom-mongers are already being proven wrong - the stock market has part recovered, there hasn't been the big run on the pound that they forecast, and big businesses aren't queuing up for the exodus.

I can only describe the Remainers as latter day Luddites. The face of the UK has been changed forever. The EU now realises we are not a push over.

Give it a chance.

Those are such bad analogies. Hillary and Tenzing were the first not to be beaten back or die (Mallory and Irvine were first to try and died). It took 30 years from the first attempt to be successful.

Likewise Armstrong was on Apollo 11 (the clues in the number) and was the culmination of a decade of planning and even were right on the bleeding edge of what was possible narrowly avoiding catastrophe (see Apollo 13). And on the way to Apollo people did die.

Agreed we are in uncharted waters, but so was Edmund Hillary when he climbed Mount Everest, Neil Armstrong when he stepped on the moon. Someone, somewhere has to make that first step. The British public (with the exception of Scotland, N Ireland & Greater London) has chosen to make that first step. Who are we to deny it? Right or wrong only history will describe.

The doom-mongers are already being proven wrong - the stock market has part recovered, there hasn't been the big run on the pound that they forecast, and big businesses aren't queuing up for the exodus.

I can only describe the Remainers as latter day Luddites. The face of the UK has been changed forever. The EU now realises we are not a push over.

Give it a chance.

Those are such bad analogies. Hillary and Tenzing were the first not to be beaten back or die (Mallory and Irvine were first to try and died). It took 30 years from the first attempt to be successful.

Likewise Armstrong was on Apollo 11 (the clues in the number) and was the culmination of a decade of planning and even were right on the bleeding edge of what was possible.

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[CWARD]

One point is that all the Poles we know work hard and have mortgages for their own properties, buying their own houses and not wanting council houses or benefits

 

If you controlled or vetoed the English (eg those who have kids to get council houses or have no work and 8 kids on the state), you'd have the problem solved

 

Perhaps they could learn some responsibility from others in the EU where "if you can't afford it, don't do it" seems to apply, rather than a logic that the state owes them a living.

 

Shame we're not in the EU still, as instead of benefits, council tax and a a free £1500pcm rented house, I would offer the "no work 8 kids families" houses in Romania and £100pcm to live comfortably on and sort the English housing issue once and for all.  They might learn something too.

 

The migrants that have come here from elsewhere in the EU are just the same as our native population. You have the hardworking ones and the useless ones too that are just a drain on society. The polish plaster that did my bathroom, after I had been given the run around for weeks by a local tradesman, he complained none stop about his useless cousin who was over here in living in a council house, popping out kids when he wasn't too drunk to get it up. I didn't have the heart to tell him that it was he whom had given me his number as his cousin is my brothers next door neighbour.

 

BTW, EU law on Freedom of Movement and Human Rights would prevent you from relocating our useless drains on society to Romania so pointless being in the EU if that is what you wanted. This is wear the Freedom of Movement falls down as encourages welfare benefits shopping.

[FUBAR]

The petition was set up by a leave supporter from English Democrats who like vote leave has engaged reverse on the matter

 

Just to clarify more towards the facts on that, in that he has not changed his position: 

Edited 27 June, 2016 by FUBAR

[Aspman]

The only certainty now is uncertainty.

 

If we've lit the blue touchpaper on the EU there may be no advantage in staying or getting back in.

 

France has a general election in 6 months and a presidential election next year.

Germany has an election next year too.

 

The outcomes of those may be just as important.

 

We're on a roller-coaster now and there is no getting off.

[jlwah]

Poll tonight by the herald. 86% want to ditch the UK as they feel betrayed

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That's just from an on-line vote and is now at 79% leave UK. A poll by TNS has leave at 52%, which is way below what she would need to have any assurance of victory.

 

I wonder whether, when the implications of a vote to leave the UK are made to the Scottish electorate, they will be quite as enthusiastic. The economics look quite a bit worse than in 2014 and the possibility of trade barriers with Scotland's biggest market might make the people think twice.

 

I not quite sure why the Scots feel betrayed. The realisation must be that Scotland accounts for about 10% of the UK electorate and therefore will have 10% of the influence.

Not everyone in Scotland voted to remain and 33% of the electorate couldn't be bothered to vote, so actually only 42% of the electorate voted to remain in the EU.

 

As I said, the maths look tricky for the poison dwarf and she is being cautious about another vote as a loss again will mean she's toast.