EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 1

[@Lee]

Put aside who the messenger is (I know, bloody hard) but listen to the message.

 

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/articles/tony_blair_s_rallying_call_for_the_48_his_treatise_on_combatting_brexit_1_4754772

[cheezemonkhai]

There's a story in our local paper about how the Council are hoping to be able to house a couple of Syrian refugee families in the area.

Unsurprisingly, this has brought out the usual anti migrant rants including this little gem. "Bromsgrove council are a bunch of ******s all of them we don't want refugees here didn't we vote OUT we don't want them HERE !!!!!"

And that there is the percentage of people that some might say should be exported to some island far far away and left to fend for themselves.

So you see, a small province in Belgium hasn't undermined CETA, after all.........

Long live the EU

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37814884

Boy, wouldn't it be nice to have a slice of that pie drizzled in maple syrup.

We currently do and I'm sure we can sort something out too.

Edited 31 October, 2016 by cheezemonkhai

[@Lee]

 

Parliament must vote on whether the UK can start the process of leaving the European Union, the High Court has ruled.

This means the government cannot trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty - beginning formal discussions with the EU - on its own.

 

BREAKING

 

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37857785

[lol-lol]

BREAKING

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37857785

 

 

You beat me to it..

 

Here is the Huff Post take.....

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-must-ask-parliament-before-triggering-article-50-for-brexit-high-court-rules_uk_581b024be4b08315783d7c10?utm_hp_ref=uk-news

[lol-lol]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-brexit-titanic_uk_581a70b2e4b08315783d6c2f?utm_hp_ref=uk

 

Boris Johnson Says ‘Brexit’ Will Be A ‘Titanic Success’

 

Boris Johnson, Brexit’s cheerleader-in-chief, has said the UK’s exit from the European Union will be a “Titanic success”.  The Foreign Secretary drew comparisons to the ill-fated cruise liner, which sank when it crashed into an iceberg in 1912 on its maiden voyage, when presenting an award to George Osborne at the Spectator Parliamentarian of the Year Awards.

Edited 3 November, 2016 by lol-lol

[camelspyyder]

Wow, so a court of what 3 or 4 can interfere with a referendum voted for by millions...amazing

[@Lee]

Wow, so a court of what 3 or 4 can interfere with a referendum voted for by millions...amazing

That's not what happened.

The Court decided on the legality of Theresa May triggering Art. 50 using The Queens Prerogative and found that ACCORDING TO UK LAW she cannot.

[domhnall]

Wow, so a court of what 3 or 4 can interfere with a referendum voted for by millions...amazing

 

 

the Court said that it was going nowhere near the question of whether or not we should leave the EU for "that is a political matter". What they were asked to decide was whether the PM can now give effect to that decision using any means she chooses (no one said what out would be, hard Brexit, soft Brexit, I can't believe it's not Brexit etc) so she doesn't have a blank cheque. She needs to get Parliamentary approval, that is what the constitution says apparently. 

 

And as we all know an advisory referendum is nowhere near as paramount as the supremacy of Parliament. After all we were voting to make Parliament sovereign again weren't we? Seems a bit odd for the first act is to subvert Parliament, that's hardly making it sovereign again is it?

[Ootohere]

 Theresa May MP calling a General Election seems like her best plan.

Then she as the leader of the Conservative & Unionist party and the Prime Minister if they are elected can get on with the mandate they would have stood on to take the UK out of the EU.

She was a 'Stayer' and just inherited as when she was voted in by Conservative Party members as the PM the roll of taking the UK out of the EU.

 

Now is the opportunity for the Conservatives in government to decide as a party if they are going to do all they can to follow the wish of the majority that voted that the UK should leave the EU.

[@Lee]

Warning; Content may contain satire............

 

http://newsthump.com/2016/10/18/man-who-demanded-sovereignty-of-parliament-outraged-by-sovereignty-of-parliament/

[lol-lol]

BANK OF ENGLAND Inflation Report

November 2016

 

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/inflationreport/2016/nov.pdf

 

..........Largely as a result of the depreciation of sterling, CPI inflation is expected to be higher throughout the three-year forecast period than in the Committee’s August projections. In the central projection, inflation rises from its current level of 1% to around 2¾% in 2018, before falling back gradually over 2019 to reach 2½% in three years’ time. Inflation is judged likely to return to close to the target over the following year.

[gadgetman]

the Court said that it was going nowhere near the question of whether or not we should leave the EU for "that is a political matter". What they were asked to decide was whether the PM can now give effect to that decision using any means she chooses (no one said what out would be, hard Brexit, soft Brexit, I can't believe it's not Brexit etc) so she doesn't have a blank cheque. She needs to get Parliamentary approval, that is what the constitution says apparently. 

 

And as we all know an advisory referendum is nowhere near as paramount as the supremacy of Parliament. After all we were voting to make Parliament sovereign again weren't we? Seems a bit odd for the first act is to subvert Parliament, that's hardly making it sovereign again is it?

Essentially she cannot act like a dictator.

 

Would parliament go against the vote?  Only if a suicidal MP.  It's a constitutional issue as to how much power the PM/Government has without parliamentary approval/discussion.

 

That's not to say such discussions can't be behind closed doors in parliament, but at least we get some check on what is going to be decided on our behalf.  Not just what is in May/Boris/Davis/Fox's head on the day

[SkodaVRS1963]

Essentially she cannot act like a dictator.

 

Would parliament go against the vote?  Only if a suicidal MP.  It's a constitutional issue as to how much power the PM/Government has without parliamentary approval/discussion.

 

 

You're missing the bigger picture.

 

There will be no constituency seats, no MPs, no anything if Parliament votes to renege on a promise and p1$$ off 17 million voters.

 

"Can I hang onto my seat?" is very, very redundant all of a sudden.

 

This is a very critical juncture in our history; if MPs do the wrong thing then we're in for a nightmare - even right-minded people such as myself (56 years on this planet without so much as a parking ticket) will be out there with a pitchfork and a flame.

 

I hope May is bright enough to realise........

[trundlenut]

You're missing the bigger picture.

There will be no constituency seats, no MPs, no anything if Parliament votes to renege on a promise and p1$$ off 17 million voters.

"Can I hang onto my seat?" is very, very redundant all of a sudden.

This is a very critical juncture in our history; if MPs do the wrong thing then we're in for a nightmare - even right-minded people such as myself (56 years on this planet without so much as a parking ticket) will be out there with a pitchfork and a flame.

I hope May is bright enough to realise........

As opposed to May deciding what it is voted for. You will get what you voted for and you will bloody well like it, because you voted for it.

What if May decided a Norway style relationship was best with free movement and lots of cash going to the EU? Or maybe she tells the EU to stick it, no deal, but we drop all incoming tariffs and get rid of manufacturing as some of economists for Brexit want. Either option means we leave the EU and you get what you voted for.

[@Lee]

As opposed to May deciding what it is voted for. You will get what you voted for and you will bloody well like it, because you voted for it.

What if May decided a Norway style relationship was best with free movement and lots of cash going to the EU? Or maybe she tells the EU to stick it, no deal, but we drop all incoming tariffs and get rid of manufacturing as some of economists for Brexit want. Either option means we leave the EU and you get what you voted for.

I can see myself and a few others circa £5K/ year worse off whichever way it goes. I'm not backing anything at the moment.

[skomaz]

I just wish some of the politicians would stop being so stupid and see that it is madness to give the bargaining hand in advance by discussing it ad-infinitum in parliament before the negotiations start...   to do so would be ridiculous and naive in the extreme...

[trundlenut]

I just wish some of the politicians would stop being so stupid and see that it is madness to give the bargaining hand in advance by discussing it ad-infinitum in parliament before the negotiations start... to do so would be ridiculous and naive in the extreme...

There aren't a lot of options, i dont think May and BoJo has a plan the EU won't expect.

The other choice is we get a choice of BoJo's deal or no Deal.

[gadgetman]

You're missing the bigger picture.

There will be no constituency seats, no MPs, no anything if Parliament votes to renege on a promise and p1$$ off 17 million voters.

"Can I hang onto my seat?" is very, very redundant all of a sudden.

This is a very critical juncture in our history; if MPs do the wrong thing then we're in for a nightmare - even right-minded people such as myself (56 years on this planet without so much as a parking ticket) will be out there with a pitchfork and a flame.

I hope May is bright enough to realise........

It's not just about invoking article 50. It's also about Parliament agreeing which deal options we actually accept at the end of the process.

Had the case been thrown out, May & the brexit boys would have had free reign to decide what leave voters were actually voting for.

Complete divorce

Free market retention at any cost

Only stopping immigration at any cost

Etc etc

As a public vote on any deal has long been ruled out, at least we can have parliament scrutinise which deal we end up accepting. Especially should there be a fundamental shift in factors which would affect the country (positively or negatively) which weren't known at the time of the vote.

[moley]

I can see myself and a few others circa £5K/ year worse off whichever way it goes. I'm not backing anything at the moment.

What's the calculation of £5k based on, increase in spending or reduction in income? 

[Scribbler]

I agree with parliamentary democracy for the most part and understand the wish of the people especially the minority who wish to stay in the EU to know  hats planned. The problem you all fail to see is that May and the conservatives can't win in this debate and the public will never be satisfied.

 

If she comes clean about what deals she will try and negotiate with the EU, then the EU will get prior notice and will be able to come up with reasons to block it. People who think this can be debated behind closed doors are not living in the real world it will get leaked probably on twitter of all platforms. 

 

They could give brief wishy washy vague descriptions of aims but this wont satisfy the remainers and will lead to more calls of 'you have no plan' 

Make no mistake this is a war with a hostile foe. The EU are not our friends otherwise we wouldn't be leaving and the negotiations is pretty similar to those of the cold war. We need to trust that our ELECTED Politicians will protect our interests and get a deal that is in this countries best interests respecting the will of the people. A script will only harm these negotiations. They will need to threaten the EU with all sorts of underhand tactics to 

win concessions and the be under no mistake the EU will be issuing threats and counter threats of its own. This divorce will not be amicable and if you were going into a divorce you wouldn't let your ex spouse know the list of demands before announcing the divorce or those assets would most likely be gone by the time of the settlement. Don't Tie our politicians hands behind their backs people we need to let them do the job they were elected to do. 

Edited 4 November, 2016 by Scribbler

[trundlenut]

I agree with parliamentary democracy for the most part and understand the wish of the people especially the minority who wish to stay in the EU to know hats planned. The problem you all fail to see is that May and the conservatives can't win in this debate and the public will never be satisfied.

If she comes clean about what deals she will try and negotiate with the EU, then the EU will get prior notice and will be able to come up with reasons to block it. People who think this can be debated behind closed doors are not living in the real world it will get leaked probably on twitter of all platforms.

They could give brief wishy washy vague descriptions of aims but this wont satisfy the remainers and will lead to more calls of 'you have no plan'

Make no mistake this is a war with a hostile foe. The EU are not our friends otherwise we wouldn't be leaving and the negotiations is pretty similar to those of the cold war. We need to trust that our ELECTED Politicians will protect our interests and get a deal that is in this countries best interests respecting the will of the people. A script will only harm these negotiations. They will need to threaten the EU with all sorts of underhand tactics to

win concessions and the be under no mistake the EU will be issuing threats and counter threats of its own. This divorce will not be amicable and if you were going into a divorce you wouldn't let your ex spouse know the list of demands before announcing the divorce or those assets would most likely be gone by the time of the settlement. Don't Tie our politicians hands behind their backs people we need to let them do the job they were elected to do.

So instead we should wait until the negotiations start then BoJo can come in wearing a tophat, Cape and twirly moustache and reveal all with a flourish. At which point they will know.

To be fair BoJo may come up with an idea that the EU won't expect but only because it will be exceptionally stupid.

Remember whatever happens it will be what you voted for.

[Huskoda]

You're missing the bigger picture.

 

There will be no constituency seats, no MPs, no anything if Parliament votes to renege on a promise and p1$$ off 17 million voters.

 

"Can I hang onto my seat?" is very, very redundant all of a sudden.

 

This is a very critical juncture in our history; if MPs do the wrong thing then we're in for a nightmare - even right-minded people such as myself (56 years on this planet without so much as a parking ticket) will be out there with a pitchfork and a flame.

 

I hope May is bright enough to realise........

Nonsense. They would just be elected by the other slightly-less-than-17 million voters plus perhaps some of those who now regret not voting or have cold feet. Sometimes it sounds like the Brexit camp won overwhelmingly and did not just make up 34% of the voting population. Whatever they do, about half of the voters will still be furious.

[swedishskoda]

There's always the option of blowing up the Houses of Parliament with gunpowder. November 5th might provide a fitting opportunity? This time it might work...

[trundlenut]

There's always the option of blowing up the Houses of Parliament with gunpowder. November 5th might provide a fitting opportunity? This time it might work...

You had to go ruin it didn't you..

Can anyone give me a hand moving some barrels?

[john999boy]

This topic will now continue here so as not to cause any potential forum issues. :thumbup: