EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 1

[@Lee]

Glad to see Project Fear is still alive and well lol.

Am I fearful of a Britain outside the EU? Yes.

Am I fearful of an increasingly right-wing government? Yes

Am I fearful for the future? Yes

Am I fearful for the future of ~ 3M EU migrants working here and contributing? Yes (including the future of my partner. A highly specialised researcher, Academic and Senior Lecturer)

Am I fearful for the economy? Yes. More so now it's hit a record low.

Am I fearful of xenophobic bigots and racists who think they have been empowered by May? Yes

[Dr Zoidberg]

 

Freedom of movement for me is non negotiable, as in, it has to go,

 

You don't get any say in it though. None whatsoever. It's looking like there will be no debate in parliament and no vote or second referendum to approve any deal that gets negotiated.

Brexit might end up meaning no freedom of movement, thousands of UK citizens forced back here against their will and huge tariffs to trade with the EU, or it might be the opposite with free trade and movement just as we have now and us paying 50% of what we do now.

 

Still, at least we've "Taken back control"......

[TonyB1965]

Am I fearful of a Britain outside the EU? Yes.

Am I fearful of an increasingly right-wing government? Yes

Am I fearful for the future? Yes

Am I fearful for the future of ~ 3M EU migrants working here and contributing? Yes (including the future of my partner. A highly specialised researcher, Academic and Senior Lecturer)

Am I fearful for the economy? Yes. More so now it's hit a record low.

Am I fearful of xenophobic bigots and racists who think they have been empowered by May? Yes

As I said Project fear continues, and by the way, the economic forecasts from pre Brexit have all been upgraded to more positive forecasts, so you're starting from a false premise, not to mention all the "xenophobia and racist" nonsense.

[TonyB1965]

You don't get any say in it though. None whatsoever. It's looking like there will be no debate in parliament and no vote or second referendum to approve any deal that gets negotiated.

Brexit might end up meaning no freedom of movement, thousands of UK citizens forced back here against their will and huge tariffs to trade with the EU, or it might be the opposite with free trade and movement just as we have now and us paying 50% of what we do now.

 

Still, at least we've "Taken back control"......

More Project Fear guff. No-one will be "forced back here" against their will just as no-one will be forced to leave here, that has already been confirmed by Theresa May. There will be no "huge tarrifs" either, as WTO rules forbid the practice of excessive tarrifs. Please spare me the "sky is falling on our heads" drama, it's just nonsense.

[Dr Zoidberg]

More Project Fear guff. No-one will be "forced back here" against their will just as no-one will be forced to leave here, that has already been confirmed by Theresa May. 

No it hasn't. She said that she expects UK citizens to be allowed to stay in the EU, as long as we allow all the EU nationals to remain here, and that's anything but certain. 

http://news.sky.com/story/eu-nationals-in-uk-one-of-our-main-cards-in-brexit-deal-liam-fox-10605533

You yourself said that freedom of movement is non negotiable, so if the UK takes the position that it will close it's borders , then you can bet the EU will do the same. There's absolutely zero chance of a one-way agreement as even the most ardent leave campaigner would agree.

[TonyB1965]

No it hasn't. She said that she expects UK citizens to be allowed to stay in the EU, as long as we allow all the EU nationals to remain here, and that's anything but certain. 

http://news.sky.com/story/eu-nationals-in-uk-one-of-our-main-cards-in-brexit-deal-liam-fox-10605533

You yourself said that freedom of movement is non negotiable, so if the UK takes the position that it will close it's borders , then you can bet the EU will do the same. There's absolutely zero chance of a one-way agreement as even the most ardent leave campaigner would agree.

The UK will not "close it's borders", it will manage them using a selective system, we're not building a fortress lol.

[@Lee]

The UK will not "close it's borders", it will manage them using a selective system, we're not building a fortress lol.

you mean like the deal Cameron wanted?

[Dr Zoidberg]

The UK will not "close it's borders", it will manage them using a selective system, we're not building a fortress lol.

 

In which case, wouldn't you expect the EU to impose a similar system on UK citizens? Do you think all the retired ex-pats in Spain will qualify? I'm sure they'd love to get rid of a bunch of health tourists. What about others who don't meet the criteria? Will they have to return to the UK....

 

But hold on a minute, how will this selective system work? Teresa May has said that it won't be a points based system.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/05/uk-immigration-what-are-the-alternatives-to-a-point-based-system

[TonyB1965]

you mean like the deal Cameron wanted?

Cameron asked for nothing and got even less, he's a joke.

[Ootohere]

The retired to Spain and other countries that get paid their pensions and Winter Fuel payments are quite likely to be back to the UK for their NHS treatments so hardly health tourists.

Those that collect their unemployment benefits and disability allowances might well be leaving their residencies outwith the UK and returning to the British Isles.

[TonyB1965]

In which case, wouldn't you expect the EU to impose a similar system on UK citizens? Do you think all the retired ex-pats in Spain will qualify? I'm sure they'd love to get rid of a bunch of health tourists. What about others who don't meet the criteria? Will they have to return to the UK....

 

But hold on a minute, how will this selective system work? Teresa May has said that it won't be a points based system.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/05/uk-immigration-what-are-the-alternatives-to-a-point-based-system

Spanish Ex-pats "health tourists"? are you being serious? If the British ex-pats left Spain the economy on the Costa-del-sol would collapse and they come back home when they want healthcare anyway. You're painting scenario's to fit a narrative that just won't happen.

[@Lee]

where do you get your news from?

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/daily-mail-brexit-daily-express-the-sun-tabloids-language-political-intolerance-traitors-a7357591.html?cmpid=facebook-post

 

Interesting that SkodaVRS1963 mentioned a few posts ago about knowing how to handle the media.

 

British media most right-wing in Europe

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/02/07/british-press-most-right-wing-europe/

 

When tabloids and bile-spewing publications such as The Daily Mail and Express are given free reign to publish the hate and lies they do, is it any wonder there's such a rise to the right?

People need to realise they're being manipulated by the press.

 

Edit. Interestingly SWMBO was looking on a German website for UK jobhunters looking for work in Germany

        There are lots of vacancies for people with marketing skills, specifically in advertising.

        I told her 'that's because Britain has the best bullsh1tters' as we've seen.

[gadgetman]

That LBC video is gold.

[@Lee]

I've no idea of the circulation demographic of The Metro but, it's a free newspaper published by DMG Media who also own.......... The Daily Mail.

 

There's a poll in this article asking 'Should we continue with Brexit Yes or No'

 

http://metro.co.uk/2016/10/16/boris-johnsons-secret-column-for-britain-to-stay-in-the-european-union-6194705/

 

Oh, and then there's this article

 

http://metro.co.uk/2016/10/16/number-of-people-who-regret-voting-leave-is-greater-than-brexit-victory-margin-6195403/

http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/

[TonyB1965]

where do you get your news from?

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/daily-mail-brexit-daily-express-the-sun-tabloids-language-political-intolerance-traitors-a7357591.html?cmpid=facebook-post

 

Interesting that SkodaVRS1963 mentioned a few posts ago about knowing how to handle the media.

 

British media most right-wing in Europe

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/02/07/british-press-most-right-wing-europe/

 

When tabloids and bile-spewing publications such as The Daily Mail and Express are given free reign to publish the hate and lies they do, is it any wonder there's such a rise to the right?

People need to realise they're being manipulated by the press.

 

Edit. Interestingly SWMBO was looking on a German website for UK jobhunters looking for work in Germany

        There are lots of vacancies for people with marketing skills, specifically in advertising.

        I told her 'that's because Britain has the best bullsh1tters' as we've seen.

Well not the Windy Pedant that's for sure lol, you might as well have used the Morning Star as your source. What next? unbiased comment from the Grauniad lol. By the way, historically Britain is more Conservative, or "right wing" as you like to label it.

[TonyB1965]

I've no idea of the circulation demographic of The Metro but, it's a free newspaper published by DMG Media who also own.......... The Daily Mail.

 

There's a poll in this article asking 'Should we continue with Brexit Yes or No'

 

http://metro.co.uk/2016/10/16/boris-johnsons-secret-column-for-britain-to-stay-in-the-european-union-6194705/

Seriously?

[@Lee]

Well not the Windy Pedant that's for sure lol, you might as well have used the Morning Star as your source. or "right wing" as you like to label it.

So from where do you get your news? What papers do you subscribe to? Serious question and please answer truthfully. At least give me that dignity.

[TonyB1965]

So from where do you get your news? What papers do you subscribe to? Serious question and please answer truthfully. At least give me that dignity.

Not newspapers as a rule, unless I can verify what they're saying. I look for independents sources, or alternate sources, and I like to check my facts wherever possible. Newspapers have a habit of "manipulating" data and comment to put it politely. Twitter is surprisingly useful in finding alternate sources.

[@Lee]

Not newspapers as a rule, unless I can verify what they're saying. I look for independents sources, or alternate sources, and I like to check my facts wherever possible. Newspapers have a habit of "manipulating" data and comment to put it politely. Twitter is surprisingly useful in finding alternate sources.

In which case you must surely realise that the reasons for leaving that were presented to the people were based on lies?

That the people voted to leave did so because they believed the lies.

[@Lee]

I think in layman's terms he's saying 'mob rule'

 

http://www.thenational.scot/news/philosopher-ac-grayling-calls-for-parliament-to-avoid-triggering-article-50-to-avoid-brexit.19557

 

https://www.nchlondon.ac.uk/2016/07/01/professor-c-graylings-letter-650-mps-urging-parliament-not-support-motion-trigger-article-50-lisbon-treaty-1-july-2016/

[TonyB1965]

In which case you must surely realise that the reasons for leaving that were presented to the people were based on lies?

That the people voted to leave did so because they believed the lies.

Well you can stick to that meme if you wish, but everyone I know ( and that's a lot of people because of what I do ), knew exactly why and what they voted for and still feel the same. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion based on my previous post. I suspect you're stuck in the mainstream media echo chamber that likes to present some alternate reality because it just can't cope with the fact that the "little people" couldn't be fooled.

Edited 16 October, 2016 by TonyB1965

[trundlenut]

Well you can stick to that meme if you wish, but everyone I know ( and that's a lot of people because of what I do ), knew exactly why and what they voted for and still feel the same. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion based on my previous post. I suspect you're stuck in the mainstream media echo chamber that likes to present some alternate reality because it just can't cope with the fact that the "little people" couldn't be fooled.

Have you told Boris, they seem a bit short of ideas.

[@Lee]

the fact that the "little people" couldn't be fooled.

But you were, you know you were but you're just too pig-headed to admit you were.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/how-brexit-campaign-lied-us-and-got-away-it

[TonyB1965]

But you were, you know you were but you're just too pig-headed to admit you were.

I always love it when people tell me what I think and know, it says an awful lot about their refusal to accept anothers opinion. I can assure you, unequivocally, that I am delighted we voted for Brexit, I even purchased an EU flag (how that hurt!) ready to burn when article 50 is invoked. I despise the EU and rue the day this country was tricked into joining, I hope that makes my feelings clear

[trundlenut]

I always love it when people tell me what I think and know, it says an awful lot about their refusal to accept anothers opinion. I can assure you, unequivocally, that I am delighted we voted for Brexit, I even purchased an EU flag (how that hurt!) ready to burn when article 50 is invoked. I despise the EU and rue the day this country was tricked into joining, I hope that makes my feelings clear

Err Teresa May IS telling you.