Steering rods - fed up

[xman]

I've had creaking steering rods changed 3 times under warranty, all in the space of about 18 months. The last time was at the beginning of October at the end of the 3 yr warranty. Less than 5 months after the previous set were changed. Now, less than 3 months later the new set are creaking louder than ever.

It was explained to me when I asked at the last change that warranty repairs do not have any warranty beyond the original 3 year warranty, i.e. in this case no warranty at all. They did not answer my query as to what happens if they fail again.

Obviously Christmas is in the way of a complaint being lodged.

What could be causing such frequent failures? Someone mentioned contamination of grease, I've noticed the dealer has fastened the steering rack boots on with tywraps, that doesnt look like an oem method to me.

Not happy is a gross understatement.

I'm basically moaning here today to attract the attention of Skoda HQ before I approach the dealer on Tuesday as it has been said they often lurk around forums eavesdropping.

[KenONeill]

Tiewraps are a perfectly acceptable way of securing steering arm boots.

 

What seems odd to me is that anyone would think that a creaking steering arm required replacing. Mostly because I'd expect a creak to come from the power assistance, and some creaking there at near full lock is perfectly normal.

[Ootohere]

It does seem odd, but then that was why it was dismissed for long enough, then Skoda / VW issued a TPI and parts were then replaced under warranty.

Parts as the OP mentions.

[xman]

It is far more than just the occasional creak. Creak is just the skoda dealers description.

It is a very pronounced sticking/cracking/judder throughout the turning range, supposedly caused by a seizing inner track rod end, apparently due to grease/lubrication failure, i.e. dry universal joint.

It is a known problem with late model fabias and many have been replaced under warranty. My dealer claims mine is the only one they know that has failed more than once. (That was at the second change)

Edited 24 December, 2016 by xman

[peter3197]

I've had creaking steering rods changed 3 times under warranty, all in the space of about 18 months. The last time was at the beginning of October at the end of the 3 yr warranty. Less than 5 months after the previous set were changed. Now, less than 3 months later the new set are creaking louder than ever.

It was explained to me when I asked at the last change that warranty repairs do not have any warranty beyond the original 3 year warranty, i.e. in this case no warranty at all. They did not answer my query as to what happens if they fail again.

 

Repairs done under warranty have a warranty themselves. The dealer is talking b*****ks. If you were out of warranty and you had a repair done and the part subsequently failed in a short time it would be changed under the warranty on the parts fitted.

[xman]

Repairs done under warranty have a warranty themselves. The dealer is talking b*****ks. If you were out of warranty and you had a repair done and the part subsequently failed in a short time it would be changed under the warranty on the parts fitted.

Its been explained to me as this at least 3 times..

If I pay for a repair, it gets a 2yr unlimited mileage Skoda backed warranty automatically.

If Skoda pays entirely for the repair (i.e. warranty or goodwill job), it carries no warranty beyond any existing vehicle warranty.

Doesn't sound right to me, but they are insistent that is Skoda UK policy.

In this case I think I have more than enough evidence to prove the replacement parts/repairs have been in themselves faulty (less than 3 months is not fair wear and tear), and under law they need to fix it foc. It is also reasonable for me to demand a 2 year warranty on the parts and repair (in writing) this time around.

Edited 24 December, 2016 by xman

[KenONeill]

I'd say so.

 

Also, in the light of #3 and #4, I've kind of lost even more confidence in VAG products.

[2ndskoda]

I am surprised that VAG have authorised a change of track rods. To me this indicates an admission of some tolerance or machining  error - I am however not surprised to learn that it could be a matter of lubrication. I have never heard of 'contaminated grease' - only the use of a totally wrong choice of grease.

 

I would suggest that under lubrication (IE quantity) together with an unsuitable grease is at the heart of this problem.

Those in the trade will be aware of one very important fact (which is too often overlooked.)

 

When the steering is being worked side to side - the inner track rod is operating in a horizontal frictional plane. When the car has movement, and the suspension is acting. that same track rod is now being moved in a vertical plane at the same time. Therefore I would expect some frictional noise to also be apparent.

 

I have changed scores of damaged boots over many years - to complete a good job we always disassembled the track rod at its inner end, and ensured that the relevant parts were well lubricated which included the spring and pad that so many manufacturers used  (or at least they did in my day). We never had to replace track rods (unless they were physically damaged/bent) - and never had to my recollection any complaints later about steering 'creaks' from customers.

 

If anyone wishes to check if the inner end of the rod is 'dry' - simply jack up the car, remove the road wheel, and separate the track rod end from the hub steering arm. You can then move the track rod in all directions. You MAY hear a noise from the inner end OR feel a distinct roughness or unevenness during movement - if this is the case then a dry situation at the inner end could well be the cause. I would add that today's 'technician' does not seem to properly diagnose issues such as these - assumptions are made, and not many really get to the root of these matters.

For so many garages time and the pound note (your pound note) are the guiding factor, and the poor staff and training is accountable for so many reports of dissatisfaction and return visits for the same problem. Check out a recent post where a customer was told by a Skoda dealer that his car did not have a cam belt (TDI CR105) but had a chain !!! - they even confirmed this in writing to the customer!

 

I am surprised that after the 1960's when steering racks became standard equipment - we experienced years of no problems across all makes - then suddenly VAG have run into this 'problem'. VAG are presently trying for cost savings in every area possible it seems. I am afraid that the credibility of the VW group is very much of concern to so many.

[KenONeill]

@2ndskoda - I wonder if your experience is similar to mine and you've only ever experienced inner rod end failure following neglect of a torn rack boot?

[Auric Goldfinger]

Its been explained to me as this at least 3 times..

If I pay for a repair, it gets a 2yr unlimited mileage Skoda backed warranty automatically.

If Skoda pays entirely for the repair (i.e. warranty or goodwill job), it carries no warranty beyond any existing vehicle warranty.

 

 

 

Correct,  Also If you part pay, you pay 5% Skoda pay 95% you still get the 2 year warranty.

[2ndskoda]

Ken ONeill wrote - "2ndskoda - I wonder if your experience is similar to mine and you've only ever experienced inner rod end failure following neglect of a torn rack boot?"

 

In 99.9% cases - 'failure' due to boot damage, NOT a physical breakage, but a prolonged period running dry that did cause frictional and discernible wear.

 

HOWEVER, just one only failure (breakage at the ball itself) courtesy of a DIY customer, who made a complete horlicks of a repair job!!!!

Edited 25 December, 2016 by 2ndskoda

[Skyl1n3]

I don't know if mine is the same or similar but everytime I pull away in my vRS I turn off the drive either left or right and it makes one heck of a creak when turning slowly it's almost embarrassing to have a sound like that come from a car like mine, but then after driving for a bit it completely goes away so it's almost impossible to give an example to the Skoda dealership.

[KenONeill]

Ken ONeill wrote - "2ndskoda - I wonder if your experience is similar to mine and you've only ever experienced inner rod end failure following neglect of a torn rack boot?"

 

In 99.9% cases - 'failure' due to boot damage, NOT a physical breakage, but a prolonged period running dry that did cause frictional and discernible wear.

 

HOWEVER, just one only failure (breakage at the ball itself) courtesy of a DIY customer, who made a complete horlicks of a repair job!!!!

Cheers mate; that's what I meant.

[2ndskoda]

From your description Skyl 1n3 - I would be minded to get an immediate professional opinion.

 

Please clarify 'turning slowly' do you mean turning the steering wheel slowly OR the car is moving slowly having already turned the steering wheel? Also is the noise regular or irregular? 

Unfortunately the word creak is often used (understandably) but can be misleading.

 

To the original poster I would say that to change the steering rods three times reflects badly on the dealers capability for correct diagnosis ability.

[xman]

I don't know if mine is the same or similar but everytime I pull away in my vRS I turn off the drive either left or right and it makes one heck of a creak when turning slowly it's almost embarrassing to have a sound like that come from a car like mine, but then after driving for a bit it completely goes away so it's almost impossible to give an example to the Skoda dealership.

Go to your skoda dealer and a tech will verify it very quickly with a quick drive. This is a VERY common problem with 2013+ build fabia ii ans a warranty repair. Initially it was said the factory supplier used the wrong grease in the joint,.

Edited 25 December, 2016 by xman

[xman]

 

To the original poster I would say that to change the steering rods three times reflects badly on the dealers capability for correct diagnosis ability.

Although I have an opinion of this dealer, in this case the diagnosis appears straight forward and imo correct. There are no torn/damaged boots involved. The stiction is clearly felt/heard at standstill and during slow speed manoeuvring when turning lock to lock. In all three cases they fixed the problem when the rods were changed, only for it to return in a few weeks/months. At the last change they said Skoda specifies that the inner rod grease must be discoloured as one of the conditions for a warranty repair acceptance which indicates thats where the fault is.

The appears to be either a supplier fault (did those faulty rods get into the uk supply chain?) or a repair procedure problem.

[Skyl1n3]

From your description Skyl 1n3 - I would be minded to get an immediate professional opinion.

Please clarify 'turning slowly' do you mean turning the steering wheel slowly OR the car is moving slowly having already turned the steering wheel? Also is the noise regular or irregular?

I would say when I'm turning the wheel at any speed as I'm making manoeuvres to set off either from the drive or pulling out from beside the curb, but it'll only do it for that one manoeuvre then any turn afterwards it'll be fine but I'll have to try and record it at some point to give a better idea and also yes it is regular and sounds exactly the same everytime.

[hutchysrs50]

Ok so from what I've read it's just the grease at fault.

So get them replaced and apply plenty of the correct grease and enjoy many moons of silent steering?

[xman]

Ok so from what I've read it's just the grease at fault.

So get them replaced and apply plenty of the correct grease and enjoy many moons of silent steering?

Bit difficult as they appear to be sealed ball joints.

[2ndskoda]

xman - it appears there is some confusion here?

It is the outer track rods ends that are 'sealed'

 

In the post so far we have been talking about the track rods themselves - and the inner end that is hidden behind the rack boot.

 

Track rod ends, and track rods are two entirely different items.

[Ootohere]

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/404768-spring-ping-clunking-on-full-lock

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/292056-monte-tech-steering-creak/page-3

[hutchysrs50]

Bit difficult as they appear to be sealed ball joints.

The inner 'rack ends' are not sealed units, the joint is open and you can see the grease around the ball joint.

The outer trackrod end is sealed by a rubber boot but they are easily removed and refitted.

[KenONeill]

In the general context, I'll always specify inner or outer rod ends. Also, I've not (had to) check for VAG product, but I have seen cars where a complete track rod used separate parts as both joint ends.

[2ndskoda]

Sorry guys - frankly this discussion is getting nowhere.

 

IF people do not know the difference between a track rod and a track rod end (commonly known as a ball joint) then we are just wasting our time.

Over and out.

Edited 26 December, 2016 by 2ndskoda

[xman]

Pray tell, how do you lubricate that ball joint and why do Skoda UK replace them, no questions asked?